i used to be a Catholic, i'm now an atheist, i'm much happier now

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However, without order we have no continuum. Society in constant chaos can never grow, we would keep repeating past mistakes. In such a state of chaos physics could have never moved from Newtonian to quantum mechanics as an example. We would continually move backwards, as we did in the dark ages. The Catholic Church to its credit preserved some semblance of the West during that period. So even atheists owe religion its due.

I suppose you think as Nietzsche did that we no longer need God. However, I couldn’t disagree more. In fact God reveals Himself in every age and pushes us forward, as He has since the beginning. Every time man becomes mired in error and stagnation He gives us new men. When we become mired in chaos He finds a way to bring us new order.
You might be interested in this definition of chaos as it is used in physics.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Nietzsche was wrong when he said “we” no longer needed god. Certainly the vast majority of people on the planet do need god. Religion and the spiritual quest are as strong as any time in history. Religion does provide the order you speak of when the effort to follow the teachings of compassion and empathy is practiced. Religion is a source of chaos [in the commonly used sense] when people use it as an excuse for hatred.
 
Emphasis mine:
My observation, from reading this and other forums (fora,actually) , is that there are a lot of miserable Catholics out there. If it’s not matters of faith, it’s morals, in that the RCC proscribes common actions as sins, such as masturbation and birth control, which are commonly practiced and not a problem to virtually all other mainstream denominations, who are lot more concerned about things like war and peace and the environment.
Incredible. I literally just got up from reading the chapter on “The Three Parts of Morality” from Lewis’ Mere Christianity, and then I log on to CAF to encounter this post. 😉 There truly is nothing new under the sun.

A short excerpt:

Morality, then, seems to be concerned with three things. Firstly, with fair play and harmony between individuals. Secondly, with what might be called tidying up or harmonising the things inside each individual. Thirdly, with the general purpose of human life as a whole: what man was made for: what course the whole fleet ought to be on: what tune the conductor of the band wants it to play.

You may have noticed that modern people are nearly always thinking about the first thing and forgetting the other two. When people say in the newspapers that we are striving for Christian moral standards, they usually mean that we are striving for kindness and fair play between nations, and classes, and individuals; that is, they are thinking only of the first thing. **When a man says about something he wants to do, ‘It can’t be wrong because it doesn’t do anyone else any harm,’ he is thinking only of the first thing. He is thinking it does not matter what his ship is like inside provided that he does not run into the next ship. **And it is quite natural, when we start thinking about morality, to begin with the first thing, with social relations. For one thing, the results of bad morality in that sphere are so obvious and press on us every day: war and poverty and graft and lies and shoddy work. And also, as long as you stick to the first thing, there is very little disagreement about morality. Almost all people at all times have agreed (in theory) that human beings ought to be honest and kind and helpful to one another. But though it is natural to begin with all that, if our thinking about morality stops there, we might just as well not have thought at all. Unless we go on to the second thing - the tidying up inside each human being - we are only deceiving ourselves.

Have a look; here’s a link to the entire chapter:

philosophyforlife.com/mc11.htm

For those who have never read Mere Christianity, you’re truly missing something wonderful; it’s worth a trip to the library or bookstore to find this one! 👍

On a final note, I can’t believe that anyone is seriously suggesting that acceptable moral behavior is determined by “common actions … which are commonly practiced and not a problem to virtually all other mainstream denominations.” 1234, if this was not your intent, please clarify; however, as it stands, your argument is little more than a grown-up version of “but all the other kids are doing it!” 😉
 
Do you think in the Old Testament that God demanded the Israelites to be a part of organised religion?
I think so, because I’m sure he did not ask, although I have never read the entire old testament I’m sure there was some sort of organization, ie: rules, everyone knew who was in charge(God) and I’m guessing they had rituals and maybe had scheduled events that needed to take place, like a lot of religions today that are organized.
I’m sure God did not just scare the pants off of some guy one day and tell him to keep all the information I have given you to yourself, and then that guy just started making up fake rituals and sacrifices because he THOUGHT god might like it.
 
Emphasis mine:

Incredible. I literally just got up from reading the chapter on “The Three Parts of Morality” from Lewis’ Mere Christianity, and then I log on to CAF to encounter this post. 😉 There truly is nothing new under the sun.

A short excerpt:

Morality, then, seems to be concerned with three things. Firstly, with fair play and harmony between individuals. Secondly, with what might be called tidying up or harmonising the things inside each individual. Thirdly, with the general purpose of human life as a whole: what man was made for: what course the whole fleet ought to be on: what tune the conductor of the band wants it to play.

You may have noticed that modern people are nearly always thinking about the first thing and forgetting the other two. When people say in the newspapers that we are striving for Christian moral standards, they usually mean that we are striving for kindness and fair play between nations, and classes, and individuals; that is, they are thinking only of the first thing. **When a man says about something he wants to do, ‘It can’t be wrong because it doesn’t do anyone else any harm,’ he is thinking only of the first thing. He is thinking it does not matter what his ship is like inside provided that he does not run into the next ship. **And it is quite natural, when we start thinking about morality, to begin with the first thing, with social relations. For one thing, the results of bad morality in that sphere are so obvious and press on us every day: war and poverty and graft and lies and shoddy work. And also, as long as you stick to the first thing, there is very little disagreement about morality. Almost all people at all times have agreed (in theory) that human beings ought to be honest and kind and helpful to one another. But though it is natural to begin with all that, if our thinking about morality stops there, we might just as well not have thought at all. Unless we go on to the second thing - the tidying up inside each human being - we are only deceiving ourselves.

Have a look; here’s a link to the entire chapter:

philosophyforlife.com/mc11.htm

For those who have never read Mere Christianity, you’re truly missing something wonderful; it’s worth a trip to the library or bookstore to find this one! 👍

On a final note, I can’t believe that anyone is seriously suggesting that acceptable moral behavior is determined by “common actions … which are commonly practiced and not a problem to virtually all other mainstream denominations.” 1234, if this was not your intent, please clarify; however, as it stands, your argument is little more than a grown-up version of “but all the other kids are doing it!” 😉
It’s absolutely my favorite book. C.S. Lewis was a genius & Mere Christianity is his best work (although his others are great too). I like him even more than Karl Barth (though Barth is also one of the contemporary greats).

Peace & good reading.
 
… I’m sure God did not just scare the pants off of some guy one day and tell him to keep all the information I have given you to yourself, and then that guy just started making up fake rituals and sacrifices because he THOUGHT god might like it.
God not scaring the pants off some guy; Are you kidding? You should read the Old Testament. God can be ruthless.

I don’t know which fake rituals and sacrifices you are talking about.
 
Who knows why God creates suffering in this world, but know it will work out for the good. It can’t not … God is God!
God does not create suffering… He allows it because he allows people to do w aht thye want… and people choose sin - over and over and over…

I was in the Real Presence the other day and Jesus appeared to be showing me how, well, things we humans take as “small” sins are not small to him at all… for examle, He hates how mean we are to each other… and how we do not treat others as “other Christs” as per st. Matthew 25:31-46. He seemed to be showing me just how awful sin is… That is why it is importaant to be Catholic… because his real, tangible Presence is only There…

And i don’t wnat to hear any arguments from non-Catholics or others who have not spent at least 1 1/2 hours There…

“Could you not watch with Me one hour?”
 
God not scaring the pants off some guy; Are you kidding? You should read the Old Testament. God can be ruthless.

I don’t know which fake rituals and sacrifices you are talking about.
well thats my point, I think there was some ORGANIZATION in this RELIGION on Gods part, ruthless or not, the rituals and sacrifices were not fake, they were thought out i’m sure, that’s my point, there was some ORGANIZATION in this RELIGION, your question was
“Do you think in the Old Testament that God demanded the Israelites to be a part of organised religion?”
 
if they have unrepented mortal sin on their souls…
Members of the body of Christ by caveat of having been predestined into the body will not be tossed in hell. We are saved because we acknowledge our imperfection, not because we delude ourselves into thinking we can be perfect.

God has saved us, not because we deserve it, but rather by grace. If grace is by works or a fictitious perfection of the flesh then it is no longer grace.
 
God does not create suffering… He allows it because he allows people to do w aht thye want… and people choose sin - over and over and over…

I was in the Real Presence the other day and Jesus appeared to be showing me how, well, things we humans take as “small” sins are not small to him at all… for examle, He hates how mean we are to each other… and how we do not treat others as “other Christs” as per st. Matthew 25:31-46. He seemed to be showing me just how awful sin is… That is why it is importaant to be Catholic… because his real, tangible Presence is only There…

And i don’t wnat to hear any arguments from non-Catholics or others who have not spent at least 1 1/2 hours There…

“Could you not watch with Me one hour?”
I’m not sure what you mean by your last statement, would you like me not to respond to you? If so … no problem 🙂

You think God does not cause suffering? Have you read the Bible?
 
I’m an ex-Catholic.

I am now an atheist.

After struggling with “spiritual” beliefs I realized that “sentimentality” or rather who i elected to be God/ess had no bearing on the events that happened to me during the day, no matter how correctly, sincerely, or elaborately, or devoutfully I would appeal to Jesus, or whatever deity. I tried so hard to cause a change in my life by my spiritual practices that i had to ask myself “who am i kidding” having continued in a very negative life despite all the effort i was putting into changing it, by appealing to other worldly things. The effort that I put into causing change in my life, could have been much more usefully put towards changing myself, and trying to seek a better life on a mundane level constructively, than going through the motions of any spirituality what have you, where any positive effect in my life, would be erroneously dubbed as “the work of God” simply because it was in my best interest to believe that, else go bankrupt on some very erroneous beliefs that had to simply be worked out due to my upbringing (hanging on to believing because of how i was raised). I am obviously sharing this subsection of my life, because I feel that there is beauty in realizing that you’ve been wrong all or some of your life, and its always a good thing to be able to admit wrong to yourself, so that you can grow from it. The same big issues that plagued me as a believer are the same issues that plague me as a atheist, however I am content in knowing that I see things with a more sensible and reasonable manner now. There is a certain taught inner compulsion in man, to believe or give credit to what he should know not to be true. Todays civilized society tells us or rather reinforces incorrect beliefs by saying that “he has the -right- to believe something” (having the right to believe something is held to be so valuable to the point that people accept their own erroneous beliefs, because they feel life had somehow owed that much to them) are being unjustfully and incorrectly unfair to not only those who do not believe, and by accepted sensible standards, are no objections to the contrary, simply because our parents, and their parents, sought to preserve incorrect beliefs (vehemently). I understand what kind of response this post will create, however I write it not in the hopes if it changes anyone that reads it, but rather the minority here who are open enough intellectually and emotionally to say, i think it’s possible there is something to what he is saying. I would like to reassure people that being an atheist, does not equate them being a bad or immoral person, nor will you be, just so long as you choose to do the right thing in your life.
😦 I am sorry that you felt like you never knew Jesus…I mean once you have Jesus in your life you never want to go back to the way it was before. But I did not have Jesus in my life the way I have him now…not when I was in another faith. I never learned all that I know now. I am afraid that I do know that one of the unforgiven sins is to turn from God and never to take him back…it is the dreaded hell opening and not God’s hand but hell.There is no saving grace outside of Jesus and the Father. I think I can tell you pretty clearly that you did not come from a plant!
Jesus is alive and well and is still healing us from all of our illnesses and diseases. Just believe by faith that Jesus is who he is and God’s word can do what it says it can do…you can do what it says you can do.In the book of Rev. it says tha our name chould be in the Lambs Book of Life.
And being a Christian never says you won’t endure some hurts along the way…If you are not hurtng and growing alot ot the time then you are not gowing in Christ.
 
I’m not sure what you mean by your last statement, would you like me not to respond to you? If so … no problem 🙂

You think God does not cause suffering? Have you read the Bible?
could you not watch with me one hour? is what Jesus said to the Apostles/disciples in the Garden before the crucifixion…
 
i don’t believe there is such a thing as a true atheist…

you are probably agnostic…

If you found out today you had terminal cancer and one month to live… you would probably be suddenly neither…
 
i don’t believe there is such a thing as a true atheist…

you are probably agnostic…

If you found out today you had terminal cancer and one month to live… you would probably be suddenly neither…
This is one of the weakest arguments I have ever heard. You are reducing your own beliefs to the level of superstition to say that atheists will start to believe when they face death; belief as a good luck charm or to hedge one’s bets.

For your information anyone who has had cancer faces mortality up close and personal. With cancer the word cure is not even mentioned. Remission, five year and ten year survival rates are used but not the word cure. As an atheist who has had surgery for breast cancer and is still under treatment, I find your analogy to be offensive on several levels.

I wish you good health and a long life.
notself
 
Why does believing that the universe always existed [in various forms] take more faith than believing in a divine being that always existed?
Great question. I will make an attempt at an answer.

An infinite regress of events is rationally absurd (watch video), thus the degree of faith required to accept it is 100% (if by faith you mean the absence of reason).

An uncaused cause (a divine being that has always existed) is rationally postulated on the basis of the absurdity of infinite regress. In other words, it is postulated because the degree of faith required for the other position is 100%.

In conclusion, the degree of faith required for believing an uncaused cause is lower (by a sliver) than that required for believing an infinite regress.
 
Great question. I will make an attempt at an answer.

An infinite regress of events is rationally absurd (watch video), thus the degree of faith required to accept it is 100% (if by faith you mean the absence of reason).

An uncaused cause (a divine being that has always existed) is rationally postulated on the basis of the absurdity of infinite regress. In other words, it is postulated because the degree of faith required for the other position is 100%.

In conclusion, the degree of faith required for believing an uncaused cause is lower (by a sliver) than that required for believing an infinite regress.
I can’t get your video to work and the comments area for the video has been closed. I wonder why? I will try to view it later.

Without seeing the video, I do have one comment. If this uncaused cause existed, then it no longer exists because it has changed in the process of causing the universe. There can be no cause that remains unchanged in itself. If you say that the uncaused cause created the universe without changing itself, then you are going to have to explain to me how that happened.

While you are explaining that, please explain why this cause has to be a God of any kind. Why can’t the cause be merely a beginning of a process, i.e. the singularity of the big bang is the beginning, the uncaused cause?
 
No, it isn’t, disproven by physicists such as Bohr, Heisenberg, Kocher, Freedman, Weihs, Rowe …
Hello. I haven’t read much Thomas Aquinas and the bit I have read, I had difficulty understanding. The one arugument for the existence of God that he gave, I do, however, understand. If one continues searching for the cause of an effect, there are endless causes until one comes to the point where there is a final cause. That is where one finds God.
 
Hello. I haven’t read much Thomas Aquinas and the bit I have read, I had difficulty understanding. The one arugument for the existence of God that he gave, I do, however, understand. If one continues searching for the cause of an effect, there are endless causes until one comes to the point where there is a final cause. That is where one finds God.
That is where one finds the final cause. Whether that’s some god, the Christian God or some natural cause cannot be concluded just from the chain of causes. Anyway, quantum mechanics suggests that some things do happen without a cause, therefore there is no unbroken chain of causes, and thus the whole argument is void.
 
I look around the world day and praise God for this beauty and for my life. God is good ,kind ,and merciful. I fall short of all his designs for me and I am certainly grateful for the chance to say I am sorry and to show it by attending Mass, thankfully receiving the sacraments, praying and by being there for others. God is so good to lead me and to keep on trying to get my attention.
 
anyone who has had cancer faces mortality up close and personal. With cancer the word cure is not even mentioned. Remission, five year and ten year survival rates are used but not the word cure. As an atheist who has had surgery for breast cancer and is still under treatment, I find your analogy to be offensive on several levels.

I wish you good health and a long life.
notself
i wish you JESUS…

the real Jesus… the one found ONLY… and i mean ONLY in the Real Presence in the Catholic Church… (Transubstantiation)…

St. John 6:27-54… St. Matthew 28:20 (etc)…

Jesus heals. Jesus is the manifest Power and Love of God…
 
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