i used to be a Catholic, i'm now an atheist, i'm much happier now

[elts1956]

I’m not sure what you mean by your last statement, would you like me not to respond to you? If so … no problem

You think God does not cause suffering? Have you read the Bible?

God causes suffering? I thought suffering is caused by humans ignoring God and being nasty to one another. ie. wars, plague etc.

Although I would like to believe what are called miracles in particularly the Old Testament, the ten plagues of Egypt, and others are caused by the direct intervention of God, how can we say these punishments were not caused by God working through nature?

If all writings and evidence of say the causes of the Tsunami that ocurred in Malaysia in 2004 were destroyed couldn’t you see someone a hundred years from now saying, “And there came a great Tsunami by which God punished the people of Malaysia for their sins”. Direct intervention by God?

 

[elts1956]

I’m not sure what you mean by your last statement, would you like me not to respond to you? If so … no problem

You think God does not cause suffering? Have you read the Bible?

God causes suffering? I thought suffering is caused by humans ignoring God and being nasty to one another. ie. wars, plague etc.

Although I would like to believe what are called miracles in particularly the Old Testament, the ten plagues of Egypt, and others ae cause by the direct intervention of God, how can we say these punishments were not caused by God working through nature?

If all writings and evidence of say the causes of the Tsunami that ocurred in Malaysia in 2004 were destroyed couldn’t you see someone a hundred years from now saying, “And there came a great Tsunami by which God punished the people of Malaysia for their sins”. Direct intervention by God?

 

[sola_scriptura]

God causes suffering? I thought suffering is caused by humans ignoring God and being nasty to one another. ie. wars, plague etc.

Although I would like to believe what are called miracles in particularly the Old Testament, the ten plagues of Egypt, and others are caused by the direct intervention of God, how can we say these punishments were not caused by God working through nature?

If all writings and evidence of say the causes of the Tsunami that ocurred in Malaysia in 2004 were destroyed couldn’t you see someone a hundred years from now saying, “And there came a great Tsunami by which God punished the people of Malaysia for their sins”. Direct intervention by God?

This is a difficult topic for many; because the idea that God causes calamity is troubling to some. Let’s look at the facts:

1. God destroyed the entire world by flood
2. God destroyed Sodom, and made Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt
3. I can’t even count the number of times God had the Israelites crush opposing armies – or the times He had opposing forces crush the Israelites.
4. As you mentioned the plagues on Egypt, destroying the Egyptian army as they chased the Hebrews, hardening the Pharaoh’s heart so he couldn’t capitulate to God’s will even if he wanted to.
5. Babylon

This is a brief summary, there’s much more, but I think you get the picture. Here’s some verses where God reveals His sovereignty and majesty to us:

**The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these (Isaiah 45:7).

The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4).**

Lesson here is there’s something to be said for a healthy fear of God.

 

[FindTruth7]

I’m an ex-Catholic.

I am now an atheist.

After struggling with “spiritual” beliefs I realized that “sentimentality” or rather who i elected to be God/ess had no bearing on the events that happened to me during the day, no matter how correctly, sincerely, or elaborately, or devoutfully I would appeal to Jesus, or whatever deity. I tried so hard to cause a change in my life by my spiritual practices that i had to ask myself “who am i kidding” having continued in a very negative life despite all the effort i was putting into changing it, by appealing to other worldly things. The effort that I put into causing change in my life, could have been much more usefully put towards changing myself, and trying to seek a better life on a mundane level constructively, than going through the motions of any spirituality what have you, where any positive effect in my life, would be erroneously dubbed as “the work of God” simply because it was in my best interest to believe that, else go bankrupt on some very erroneous beliefs that had to simply be worked out due to my upbringing (hanging on to believing because of how i was raised). I am obviously sharing this subsection of my life, because I feel that there is beauty in realizing that you’ve been wrong all or some of your life, and its always a good thing to be able to admit wrong to yourself, so that you can grow from it. The same big issues that plagued me as a believer are the same issues that plague me as a atheist, however I am content in knowing that I see things with a more sensible and reasonable manner now. There is a certain taught inner compulsion in man, to believe or give credit to what he should know not to be true. Todays civilized society tells us or rather reinforces incorrect beliefs by saying that “he has the -right- to believe something” (having the right to believe something is held to be so valuable to the point that people accept their own erroneous beliefs, because they feel life had somehow owed that much to them) are being unjustfully and incorrectly unfair to not only those who do not believe, and by accepted sensible standards, are no objections to the contrary, simply because our parents, and their parents, sought to preserve incorrect beliefs (vehemently). I understand what kind of response this post will create, however I write it not in the hopes if it changes anyone that reads it, but rather the minority here who are open enough intellectually and emotionally to say, i think it’s possible there is something to what he is saying. I would like to reassure people that being an atheist, does not equate them being a bad or immoral person, nor will you be, just so long as you choose to do the right thing in your life.

I’m Theist from Atheist, but I can understand why you became Atheist. If not for my own personal beliefs, “religious” people would have bitterly turned me against God.

 

[quaestio]

I can’t get your video to work and the comments area for the video has been closed. I wonder why? I will try to view it later.

Without seeing the video, I do have one comment. If this uncaused cause existed, then it no longer exists because it has changed in the process of causing the universe. There can be no cause that remains unchanged in itself. If you say that the uncaused cause created the universe without changing itself, then you are going to have to explain to me how that happened.

While you are explaining that, please explain why this cause has to be a God of any kind. Why can’t the cause be merely a beginning of a process, i.e. the singularity of the big bang is the beginning, the uncaused cause?

Thanks for your reply, notself.

I should note that I did not post the video, so I don’t know what the situation is regarding the comments. Are you able to view it at this time? Here’s the link.

Regarding the first part of your comment: I, too, have always struggled with the notion of an immutable being engaging in an act of creating. It does seem to disturb the being’s immutable status. I vaguely recall some philosophical responses to this problem. I will wait to see if someone supplies them in this thread. If not, maybe you or I could create a new thread about it in the philosophy forum.

Regarding the second part of your comment: From what I recall, the singularity of the big bang diversified into the four physical forces. This constitutes a change in the singularity. In your view, doesn’t that disqualify the singularity from being labeled an uncaused cause?

 

[notself]

Thanks for your reply, notself.

Regarding the second part of your comment: From what I recall, the singularity of the big bang diversified into the four physical forces. This constitutes a change in the singularity. In your view, doesn’t that disqualify the singularity from being labeled an uncaused cause?

True, it was a bad example.

 

[notself]

Thanks for your reply, notself.

I should note that I did not post the video, so I don’t know what the situation is regarding the comments. Are you able to view it at this time? Here’s the link.

Thanks for a link. I didn’t listen to the whole thing because it became ridiculous as soon as the speaker stated that an infinite number of things cannot exist. As soon as one gets to the quantum level of physics, an infinite number of possibilities exist.

Regarding the first part of your comment: I, too, have always struggled with the notion of an immutable being engaging in an act of creating. It does seem to disturb the being’s immutable status. I vaguely recall some philosophical responses to this problem. I will wait to see if someone supplies them in this thread. If not, maybe you or I could create a new thread about it in the philosophy forum.

The universe does not require a beginning. It may always have existed while continually changing in form. There is nothing in existance that does not change. One might say that change is the only constant in the universe.

Let’s say for sake of discussion that there is an uncaused cause. Why would this thingy need to create? How can an immutable thingy want to change non-creation into creation? Why would this uncaused immutable thingy require creation to worship the uncaused? The thingy would have to have both wants and needs therefore could not be immutable. So around and around we go.

I don’t spend much time thinking how we came to be here especially since the only thing that exists is this present moment. The past is just a memory and the future is yet to come.

 

[Dameedna]

Perhaps a better way to phrase the OP, would be to say you are more at peace with yourself, than "happier. Once you embraced the reality of your skepticism and doubt, you realized it was the right thing to do, and felt peaceful (probably for the first time in a long time).

At a point in time a persons conciousness shifts. It is a real shift that although may be many years in the making, the period of time where one believes and then doesn’t believe is actually quite quick(once you accept it). It almost feels like a “conversion” of sorts. You can no longer lie to yourself, you have to face your new reality.(in essence you are submitting to that which you now know to be true)

What’s interesting, is this process that a skeptic goes through, feels very similar to what an institutionalized religious person goes through, when they first convert from a lawless nature(governed by only their own will) to a religious one(governed by something other than ones own will)

Once religious, the process is the same, they will convert from being religious to being a skeptic/athiest/agnostic(governed by truth and love, not their own will, even if it’s a will to believe)

That’s what I’ve read anyway. Point is…it feels a lot more peaceful to be honest with yourself doesn’t it? I’m glad for your sake you could overcome the fear that often drives the religious back to the comfort and safety of their religion, and hopefully your post will reach a few people who are going through the same thing.

 

[distracted]

This is one of the weakest arguments I have ever heard. You are reducing your own beliefs to the level of superstition to say that atheists will start to believe when they face death; belief as a good luck charm or to hedge one’s bets.

For your information anyone who has had cancer faces mortality up close and personal. With cancer the word cure is not even mentioned. Remission, five year and ten year survival rates are used but not the word cure. As an atheist who has had surgery for breast cancer and is still under treatment, I find your analogy to be offensive on several levels.

I wish you good health and a long life.
notself

generally speaking, people believe what they want to believe.

 

[quaestio]

Thanks for a link. I didn’t listen to the whole thing because it became ridiculous as soon as the speaker stated that an infinite number of things cannot exist. As soon as one gets to the quantum level of physics, an infinite number of possibilities exist.

The one question I would pose here is this: among those infinite possibilities, is complete non-existence a possibility?

 

[notself]

The one question I would pose here is this: among those infinite possibilities, is complete non-existence a possibility?

Yes. At the quantum level things pop in and out of existence all the time, or at least existence as we observe it. Existence depends upon non existence and non existence must have existence just as up must have down.

 

[quaestio]

Yes. At the quantum level things pop in and out of existence all the time, or at least existence as we observe it. Existence depends upon non existence and non existence must have existence just as up must have down.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you, but if up (existence) must have down (non-existence), then I think your answer to my question would be, “No.”

I asking if complete non-existence is a possibility.

In other words, could there be a situation where absolutely nothing exists?

 

[notself]

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you, but if up (existence) must have down (non-existence), then I think your answer to my question would be, “No.”

I asking if complete non-existence is a possibility.

In other words, could there be a situation where absolutely nothing exists?

Yes there could be that situation, but situations change. All things change. Situations are not the sum total of all. So there could be a situation where nothing exists and a different situation where everything exists. What is nothing? What is everything? They are just labels for our perceptions, feelings, thoughts.

Look up Schrodinger’s Cat amd Bell’s Theorem. I think you will find them interesting reading.

 

[FindTruth7]

Yes there could be that situation, but situations change. All things change. Situations are not the sum total of all. So there could be a situation where nothing exists and a different situation where everything exists. What is nothing? What is everything? They are just labels for our perceptions, feelings, thoughts.

Look up Schrodinger’s Cat amd Bell’s Theorem. I think you will find them interesting reading.

Don’t let the cat fool you, its just an example, he was using the cat to explain how weird the quantum mechanics are when you compare them to normal Newtonian mechanics.

 

[notself]

Don’t let the cat fool you, its just an example, he was using the cat to explain how weird the quantum mechanics are when you compare them to normal Newtonian mechanics.

Not quite. The cat thought experiment has been observed at the sub atomic level. Check out Bell’s Theorem.

 

[rikkk1958]

I’m an ex-Catholic.

I am now an atheist.

After struggling with “spiritual” beliefs I realized that “sentimentality” or rather who i elected to be God/ess had no bearing on the events that happened to me during the day, no matter how correctly, sincerely, or elaborately, or devoutfully I would appeal to Jesus, or whatever deity. I tried so hard to cause a change in my life by my spiritual practices that i had to ask myself “who am i kidding” having continued in a very negative life despite all the effort i was putting into changing it, by appealing to other worldly things. The effort that I put into causing change in my life, could have been much more usefully put towards changing myself, and trying to seek a better life on a mundane level constructively, than going through the motions of any spirituality what have you, where any positive effect in my life, would be erroneously dubbed as “the work of God” simply because it was in my best interest to believe that, else go bankrupt on some very erroneous beliefs that had to simply be worked out due to my upbringing (hanging on to believing because of how i was raised). I am obviously sharing this subsection of my life, because I feel that there is beauty in realizing that you’ve been wrong all or some of your life, and its always a good thing to be able to admit wrong to yourself, so that you can grow from it. The same big issues that plagued me as a believer are the same issues that plague me as a atheist, however I am content in knowing that I see things with a more sensible and reasonable manner now. There is a certain taught inner compulsion in man, to believe or give credit to what he should know not to be true. Todays civilized society tells us or rather reinforces incorrect beliefs by saying that “he has the -right- to believe something” (having the right to believe something is held to be so valuable to the point that people accept their own erroneous beliefs, because they feel life had somehow owed that much to them) are being unjustfully and incorrectly unfair to not only those who do not believe, and by accepted sensible standards, are no objections to the contrary, simply because our parents, and their parents, sought to preserve incorrect beliefs (vehemently). I understand what kind of response this post will create, however I write it not in the hopes if it changes anyone that reads it, but rather the minority here who are open enough intellectually and emotionally to say, i think it’s possible there is something to what he is saying. I would like to reassure people that being an atheist, does not equate them being a bad or immoral person, nor will you be, just so long as you choose to do the right thing in your life.

I thought of not making a comment because it seems to me your knowledge about life and faith is extremely rationalized by the power of your brain. Yes, your brain, with accessories like your ears to listen what you have heard, eyes to see what you have seen, and your other senses on what you have touched, smell, and learned. Are these faculties of your body a work of chance? Or perhaps you may wonder if Someone must have designed it? Did someone just accidentally wrote the Holy Bible? Why is it so coherent, continuous, related, historically connected. in spite of the thousand of years in gaps? Why did God must let humans know Him?

I can rationalized my faith and life to any situation. I can also be an atheist and be happy. Who needs faith? Who needs God? I have all the vanities in life around me to enjoy. I am not hungry. I have a house, family, and everything I need in life. But I also believe that no two person are alike. I am honest but the other one is not. So, I will not steal, but the other will. I will not deceive anyone, but the other will. I will not sleep with someone’s else wife, but the other will. I will never hurt anyone, but the other will. I will love my neighbors, the other will not. Who is this other one?

I am a good person because I have faith in God. The God who created me and tell me what is good or bad. The God that gives me the conscience to always love my neighbor because if I don’t, I may become an unbeliever who is my alter ego, the one that will do anything against his neighbor as long nobody catches him in the act. Who cares, God is not watching!

There is God who is the God of everything we see, we hear, we smell, we touch, we think. The God who made people of old know Him by His power and glory so that men will learn. It took thousand of years and countless of disobediences for men to know Him but even though, it was not enough. It took a Son with the Spirit of God to be sacrificed so that an ultimate sign will be known in order to save His creation. It was not as to teach mankind how God will punish but how much God loves us. Now we understand, if we do bad, we know we are offending the God who loves us. Why would we do that?

You have spoken well and your free will is yours to keep. Mine, I will keep trying to work for the salvation God promised. It is not easy because as what I told you, vanities are all over. God even want me to give up everything and follow Him. I can spend my life being happy with what the world can offer but I want my soul with God. Let the flesh of my body rot. This is my will. I may be free but I know that the freedom I have in this world will not be as free as the souls in Heaven. Because, in the Kingdom of Heaven, “freedom” may never be the meaning of freedom like on earth.

 

[KingAlfred]

I’m an ex-Catholic.

I am now an atheist.

After struggling with “spiritual” beliefs I realized that “sentimentality” or rather who i elected to be God/ess had no bearing on the events that happened to me during the day, no matter how correctly, sincerely, or elaborately, or devoutfully I would appeal to Jesus, or whatever deity. I tried so hard to cause a change in my life by my spiritual practices that i had to ask myself “who am i kidding” having continued in a very negative life despite all the effort i was putting into changing it, by appealing to other worldly things. The effort that I put into causing change in my life, could have been much more usefully put towards changing myself, and trying to seek a better life on a mundane level constructively, than going through the motions of any spirituality what have you, where any positive effect in my life, would be erroneously dubbed as “the work of God” simply because it was in my best interest to believe that, else go bankrupt on some very erroneous beliefs that had to simply be worked out due to my upbringing (hanging on to believing because of how i was raised). I am obviously sharing this subsection of my life, because I feel that there is beauty in realizing that you’ve been wrong all or some of your life, and its always a good thing to be able to admit wrong to yourself, so that you can grow from it. The same big issues that plagued me as a believer are the same issues that plague me as a atheist, however I am content in knowing that I see things with a more sensible and reasonable manner now. There is a certain taught inner compulsion in man, to believe or give credit to what he should know not to be true. Todays civilized society tells us or rather reinforces incorrect beliefs by saying that “he has the -right- to believe something” (having the right to believe something is held to be so valuable to the point that people accept their own erroneous beliefs, because they feel life had somehow owed that much to them) are being unjustfully and incorrectly unfair to not only those who do not believe, and by accepted sensible standards, are no objections to the contrary, simply because our parents, and their parents, sought to preserve incorrect beliefs (vehemently). I understand what kind of response this post will create, however I write it not in the hopes if it changes anyone that reads it, but rather the minority here who are open enough intellectually and emotionally to say, i think it’s possible there is something to what he is saying. I would like to reassure people that being an atheist, does not equate them being a bad or immoral person, nor will you be, just so long as you choose to do the right thing in your life.

I would *still *follow Jesus on a strictly human level. That’s how much I think of Him. Also, it sounds as though you’re simply not spiritual. Believing in Christ shouldn’t involve wanting specific ‘pay-offs’ in return, so to speak. That is, we shouldn’t hold God hostage to our desires.

The true test of your atheistic convictions will be whether you can carry on in life, secure in your new beliefs, without dwelling on how much you don’t believe in God. If you spend most of your time arguing with yourself and others that God doesn’t exist, you probably believe He *does *exist, as evidenced by the fact you can’t live without Him. In that case, it’s really more of an issue of rebellion, than any new-found belief system.

 

[a_cermak]

The true test of your atheistic convictions will be whether you can carry on in life, secure in your new beliefs, without dwelling on how much you don’t believe in God. If you spend most of your time arguing with yourself and others that God doesn’t exist, you probably believe He *does *exist, as evidenced by the fact you can’t live without Him. In that case, it’s really more of an issue of rebellion, than any new-found belief system.

Is that really true? I mean, if the Witnesses and Mormons can knock on my door to witness to me, why can’t my local atheists? If Rick Warren can write The Purpose Drive Life why can’t Hitchens write his works promoting atheism? Why is an atheist who witnesses for atheism called a militant atheist but a Christian preacher who writes about Christ is an evangelist?

I have no bets in this fight, I just like a fair fight.

 

[distracted]

I’m an ex-Catholic.

I am now an atheist.

you are a “Catholic” atheist… because: Once Catholic Always Catholic…

After struggling with “spiritual” beliefs I realized that “sentimentality” or rather who i elected to be God/ess had no bearing on the events that happened to me during the day, no matter how correctly, sincerely, or elaborately, or devoutfully I would appeal to Jesus, or whatever deity.

I have been in trouble before and called out to St. Jude and Jesus and / or others… i have gotten out of “impossible” situations as a result… and could attribute it only to that divine intervention…

I tried so hard to cause a change in my life by my spiritual practices that i had to ask myself “who am i kidding” having continued in a very negative life despite all the effort i was putting into changing it, by appealing to other worldly things. The effort that I put into causing change in my life, could have been much more usefully put towards changing myself,

Christianity’s whole purpose is about changing oneself… although it is also about attempting to help others to change…

trying to seek a better life on a mundane level constructively, than going through the motions of any spirituality what have you, where any positive effect in my life, would be erroneously dubbed as “the work of God” simply because it was in my best interest to believe that, else go bankrupt on some very erroneous beliefs that had to simply be worked out due to my upbringing (hanging on to believing because of how i was raised).

i don’t understand this…

I am obviously sharing this subsection of my life, because I feel that there is beauty in realizing that you’ve been wrong all or some of your life, and its always a good thing to be able to admit wrong to yourself, so that you can grow from it.

yes, but sometimes we can be wrong about thinking that we were wrong… only God knows the truth… or, if you don’t believe in God… only Whatever Made You knows the truth about you…

 

[uglygal]

i wish you JESUS…

the real Jesus… the one found ONLY… and i mean ONLY in the Real Presence in the Catholic Church… (Transubstantiation)…

St. John 6:27-54… St. Matthew 28:20 (etc)…

Jesus heals. Jesus is the manifest Power and Love of God…

:nunchuk:

watch your words when speaking about “healing” to a person who is ill