I want the Latin Mass provided in my parish!

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edwest2 said:
Oh please. What more resources? If people say they want the Latin Mass then they should get the Latin Mass.

Peace,
Ed
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Ed, it’s not as easy as just giving the people what they want.

First of all, no priest can be forced to say the EF. It is extraordinary. That means it is beyond the ordinary, beyond what a priest is ordinarily required to do. No priest can be forced.

Canon law says that the pastor of the parish should accomodate a communty who wishes the EF as long as that community is stable, but the addition of the EF must be harmonized with the pastoral care of the entire parish. If it cannot be harmonized, then the pastor is required to provide what is ordinary, not what is extraordinary. If 50 people request an EF Mass but if the parish is already stretched thin, they cannot replace an OF where 500 people go with an EF where only 50 attend. That’s unfair to the people who go to the OF. Remember, the EF is extra-ordinary Mass. That means that it is beyond what is ordinarily provided. The OF is the ordinary Mass of the Church.

A There is a whole thread where Brother JR explains at length.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=671802&page=1

-Tim-
 
gee whiz, I don’t understand why it should be so hard to have Latin Mass. It used to always be Latin Mass and Vatican II never even told them to remove all the Latin. Nor did the Council tell them to turn the priest around. I feel like the masses at our church are getting too “people-centered”. It hardly contains mystery befitting of the place where heaven and earth touch. And it’s really sad that Roman Catholics would be repulsed by their own heritage… this is like Jews avoiding Hebrew or Greek Orthodox hating on Greek.,

I will start with asking my pastor, however I am sure he will reject the notion. Very few people in my own parish even care for the Latin Mass but they don’t mind Spanish even though they can’t understand it. No, the revulsion is towards Latin…see my rant above ^

The nearest Traditional Parish is very very far away from me, halfway across the state. They are run by FSSP.
 
latingirl said:
gee whiz, I don’t understand why it should be so hard to have Latin Mass. It used to always be Latin Mass and Vatican II never even told them to remove all the Latin. Nor did the Council tell them to turn the priest around. I feel like the masses at our church are getting too “people-centered”. It hardly contains mystery befitting of the place where heaven and earth touch. And it’s really sad that Roman Catholics would be repulsed by their own heritage… this is like Jews avoiding Hebrew or Greek Orthodox hating on Greek.,

I will start with asking my pastor, however I am sure he will reject the notion. Very few people in my own parish even care for the Latin Mass but they don’t mind Spanish even though they can’t understand it. No, the revulsion is towards Latin…see my rant above ^

The nearest Traditional Parish is very very far away from me, halfway across the state. They are run by FSSP.
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Well in my area two priests, aided by a retired priest, and a permanent deacon have to handle 9 churches in a fairly wide geographic area. Many of the outlying parishes in the pastoral unit can’t even have an OF Mass every Sunday due to the lack of priests.

You would fit an EF Mass where, in all of that???

It used to be said that a good used car to buy was the local priest’s. Now it’s likely the most worn-out used car in the diocese. I remember one Epiphany Mass where the priest celebrated without his stole or chasuble in the small local town church. He arrived just in the nick of time for Mass, and had forgotten his vestments at the previous Mass; there was a blizzard raging outside.

That’s the reality of why, in some places, it is so hard to have a “Latin Mass” (a term that drives me nuts as I attend an OF Mass that is largely in Latin, with Gregorian chant for the propers and ordinary, at a local Benedictine Monastery).
 
latingirl said:
gee whiz, I don’t understand why it should be so hard to have Latin Mass. It used to always be Latin Mass and Vatican II never even told them to remove all the Latin. Nor did the Council tell them to turn the priest around. I feel like the masses at our church are getting too “people-centered”. It hardly contains mystery befitting of the place where heaven and earth touch. And it’s really sad that Roman Catholics would be repulsed by their own heritage… this is like Jews avoiding Hebrew or Greek Orthodox hating on Greek.,

I will start with asking my pastor, however I am sure he will reject the notion. Very few people in my own parish even care for the Latin Mass but they don’t mind Spanish even though they can’t understand it. No, the revulsion is towards Latin…see my rant above ^

The nearest Traditional Parish is very very far away from me, halfway across the state. They are run by FSSP.
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This is reality…

You have to find a priest willing to say the latin Mass. No priest can be forced to celebrate the Extraordinary Form.

He can’t just say the words either, he has to understand what he is saying. That is canon law. He has to be proficient in it to the point of being able to understand what he is saying.

He has to be available regularly, on an ongoing basis. He must commit to it and be available, and he cannot neglect his regular work to say the Latin Mass. That means that you cannot pull a priest out of a parish where he is needed to say the Ordinary Form, so that you can hear the Extraordinary Form. He can’t stop saying the Ordinary Form for 800 people so that 50 people can hear the Extraordinary Form. He can’t stop saying an Ordinary Form Mass in Spanish for 300 people to accomodate 50 people who want a Mass in Latin. And priests need permission from the Bishop to say more than two Masses per day.

If you can find a priest proficient in Latin, available on a regular basis, willing to say the EF, and if doing so does not take away from his other core pastoral responsibilities, then you are good to go, but just telling the Bishop that you want a Latin Mass is not enough.

You can lament the outcome of the Second Vatican Council, say that you don’t think priests should face the people, that you don’t feel that the Ordinary Form is reverent enough to be considered proper worship of God, and accuse people of hating Latin, but the reality today is that you have to find a priest willing and able to do it. If you can, you are good.

I hope you get it done. Tearing down the ordinary and normal means established by the Church by which Christians worship God on an internet message board isn’t going to get it for you. I hope you get it done.

-Tim-
 
I want *what *I want *when *I want it. Sounds very selfish. Yes, the EF can be a beautiful Mass, but it is not currently the ordinary form of the latin/roman usage.

No one should be demanding anything of their priests or bishop. Certainly one can ask, one can work with other parishioners and neighboring parishes to form a group and figure out logistics, but not put an ultimatium in front of the pastor or bishop.

I am very blessed to have several nearby EFs and beautifully celebrated OFs at my parish. I will remember those places without even a full time priest and those places with minimul liturgies in my prayers tonight.
 
Here’s a list. Pick your state.

web2.airmail.net/carlsch/EFMass/churches.htm

About the priest facing the people.

"In his outstanding book, “Spirit of the Liturgy,” Cardinal Ratzinger wrote of the ancient and venerable practice of offering the Holy Sacrifice ad orientem, in which both priest and people face east:

“It has been the practice in the entire Church, East and West from time immemorial. Contrary to a prevailing misconception, there is no evidence for celebration of Mass versus populum in the first nineteen centuries of the Church’s history, with rare exceptions.”

“Despite all the variations in practice that have taken place far into the second millennium, one thing has remained clear for the whole of Christendom: praying toward the east is a tradition that goes back to the beginning. Moreover, it is a fundamental expression of the Christian synthesis of cosmos and history, of being rooted in the once-for-all events of salvation history while going out to meet the Lord who is to come again.”

Peace,
Ed
 
//That’s the reality of why, in some places, it is so hard to have a “Latin Mass” (a term that drives me nuts as I attend an OF Mass that is largely in Latin, with Gregorian chant for the propers and ordinary, at a local Benedictine Monastery).//

Wow, that is awesome. Sounds like the Mass that the Second Vatican Council intended! Props to the monastery!
 
TimothyH said:
This is reality…

You have to find a priest willing to say the latin Mass. No priest can be forced to celebrate the Extraordinary Form.

He can’t just say the words either, he has to understand what he is saying. That is canon law. He has to be proficient in it to the point of being able to understand what he is saying.

He has to be available regularly, on an ongoing basis. He must commit to it and be available, and he cannot neglect his regular work to say the Latin Mass. That means that you cannot pull a priest out of a parish where he is needed to say the Ordinary Form, so that you can hear the Extraordinary Form. He can’t stop saying the Ordinary Form for 800 people so that 50 people can hear the Extraordinary Form. He can’t stop saying an Ordinary Form Mass in Spanish for 300 people to accomodate 50 people who want a Mass in Latin. And priests need permission from the Bishop to say more than two Masses per day.

If you can find a priest proficient in Latin, available on a regular basis, willing to say the EF, and if doing so does not take away from his other core pastoral responsibilities, then you are good to go, but just telling the Bishop that you want a Latin Mass is not enough.

You can lament the outcome of the Second Vatican Council, say that you don’t think priests should face the people, that you don’t feel that the Ordinary Form is reverent enough to be considered proper worship of God, and accuse people of hating Latin, but the reality today is that you have to find a priest willing and able to do it. If you can, you are good.

I hope you get it done. Tearing down the ordinary and normal means established by the Church by which Christians worship God on an internet message board isn’t going to get it for you. I hope you get it done.

-Tim-
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whoah, I think you have me mistaken, I am NOT tearing down the ordinary Mass. My intentions are far from that! I attend the ordinary Mass. It is the way I worship. I am fine with it, sometimes however I am sad at the way some people celebrate the Ordinary Mass as if it were nothing important and just another worship service.

Please don’t sit here and judge me. You don’t know me or my intentions.
 
Mrs_Sally said:
I want *what *I want *when *I want it. Sounds very selfish. Yes, the EF can be a beautiful Mass, but it is not currently the ordinary form of the latin/roman usage.

No one should be demanding anything of their priests or bishop. Certainly one can ask, one can work with other parishioners and neighboring parishes to form a group and figure out logistics, but not put an ultimatium in front of the pastor or bishop.

I am very blessed to have several nearby EFs and beautifully celebrated OFs at my parish. I will remember those places without even a full time priest and those places with minimul liturgies in my prayers tonight.
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I’m not demanding, I’m asking so I can ask.
 
//Here’s a list. Pick your state.

web2.airmail.net/carlsch/EFMass/churches.htm

About the priest facing the people.

"In his outstanding book, “Spirit of the Liturgy,” Cardinal Ratzinger wrote of the ancient and venerable practice of offering the Holy Sacrifice ad orientem, in which both priest and people face east:

“It has been the practice in the entire Church, East and West from time immemorial. Contrary to a prevailing misconception, there is no evidence for celebration of Mass versus populum in the first nineteen centuries of the Church’s history, with rare exceptions.”

“Despite all the variations in practice that have taken place far into the second millennium, one thing has remained clear for the whole of Christendom: praying toward the east is a tradition that goes back to the beginning. Moreover, it is a fundamental expression of the Christian synthesis of cosmos and history, of being rooted in the once-for-all events of salvation history while going out to meet the Lord who is to come again.”///

at least someone understands the way I feel! Unfortunately, the nearest place to me is Nalcrest and the person who does the Latin Mass cannot do it anymore. He is very old and retiring.
 
latingirl said:
Okay, I heard that it is now church law that if you petition the local bishop to have a Latin Mass provided in your parish, that he has to provide it and if there is no priest who can say it, he also must provide one. I have asked around and no one’s really told me how to get this started.So, I am asking you guys. How do I petition to have the Latin Mass said in my parish church?
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Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
 
edwest2 said:
If people say they want the Latin Mass then they should get the Latin Mass.

Peace,
Ed
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There are people who want the EF in my Parish. Our Parish Priest was more than willing to accommodate but, all the same, the request went down the drain. Simply because, none of those who requested could/would assist organising it. Most just want to sit in the pews. Father was not keen to import people from other Parishes as it would add to an already hectic schedule. Many in the Parish agreed with him.
 
latingirl said:
//That’s the reality of why, in some places, it is so hard to have a “Latin Mass” (a term that drives me nuts as I attend an OF Mass that is largely in Latin, with Gregorian chant for the propers and ordinary, at a local Benedictine Monastery).//

Wow, that is awesome. Sounds like the Mass that the Second Vatican Council intended! Props to the monastery!
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And that’s been the case of every Benedictine Monastery I’ve been to. Not all use Latin, or at every Mass (the one I am an oblate of does however, use Gregorian chant at every Mass, even weekdays), but they all treat the liturgy with care. One small monastery in Paris, 8 monks only, did the Mass in French but reverently and beautifully. They are actually a small priory of St Wandrille in Normandy that does the entire Mass in Latin on weekdays, and uses Gregorian chant for Sundays but with the EP and prayers in French (because they have a large number of laity at that Mass). At Montserrat in Spain, the entire Mass is in Catalan. At a British monastery, they do Gregorian chant on weekdays, but English hymns on Sundays, again due to the large number of laity in attendance.

It’s nice to have the flexibility and the discipline to do a good job no matter what language is being used.
 
latingirl said:
whoah, I think you have me mistaken, I am NOT tearing down the ordinary Mass. My intentions are far from that! I attend the ordinary Mass. It is the way I worship. I am fine with it, sometimes however I am sad at the way some people celebrate the Ordinary Mass as if it were nothing important and just another worship service.

Please don’t sit here and judge me. You don’t know me or my intentions.
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Take all the people who attend the Ordinary Form as if it were unimportant, and put them into the Extraordinary Form, and guess what? They will do the same thing.

People are people. It has nothing to do with the form but with people.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Take all the people who attend the Ordinary Form as if it were unimportant, and put them into the Extraordinary Form, and guess what? They will do the same thing.

People are people. It has nothing to do with the form but with people.

-Tim-
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Exactly. The reason the EF is abuse-free at the moment is because it is the extraordinary form and is generally entrusted to those enthusiastic about preserving the Tridentine Mass. If it were to become ordinary, the same laxity we now see in the OF would settle in. If a priest ignores the rubrics in the OF, he’s not likely to follow them any more closely in the EF.

This past weekend I saw a beautifully preserved 1967 VW Beetle. It was obviously very much loved and pampered by its owner and probably only was used on special occasions given the realities of being in the rust belt.

There are other countries where the VW Beetle was made until recently, and many of them are pretty clapped-out daily drivers, full of dents, rust spots, etc.

My point is that we tend to take the ordinary for granted, and channel all our resources into the extraordinary, the rare, the unusual. The rarity of an air-cooled VW Beetle in my climate and part of the world ensures that any remaining ones are lovingly preserved, whereas in Mexico, where they were made until fairly recently, they’re just very cheap daily transportation and not likely to be so immaculate and possibly the owner wishes he could afford to upgrade to something more modern and comfortable instead of being thankful he has a running automobile.

What we should be doing is NOT taking the OF for granted, in fact instead we should be grateful for it, and restore it to its intended glory. Alas that may be asking too much of human nature.
 
OraLabora said:
Exactly. The reason the EF is abuse-free at the moment is because it is the extraordinary form and is generally entrusted to those enthusiastic about preserving the Tridentine Mass. If it were to become ordinary, the same laxity we now see in the OF would settle in. If a priest ignores the rubrics in the OF, he’s not likely to follow them any more closely in the EF.

This past weekend I saw a beautifully preserved 1967 VW Beetle. It was obviously very much loved and pampered by its owner and probably only was used on special occasions given the realities of being in the rust belt.

There are other countries where the VW Beetle was made until recently, and many of them are pretty clapped-out daily drivers, full of dents, rust spots, etc.

My point is that we tend to take the ordinary for granted, and channel all our resources into the extraordinary, the rare, the unusual. The rarity of an air-cooled VW Beetle in my climate and part of the world ensures that any remaining ones are lovingly preserved, whereas in Mexico, where they were made until fairly recently, they’re just very cheap daily transportation and not likely to be so immaculate and possibly the owner wishes he could afford to upgrade to something more modern and comfortable instead of being thankful he has a running automobile.

What we should be doing is NOT taking the OF for granted, in fact instead we should be grateful for it, and restore it to its intended glory. Alas that may be asking too much of human nature.
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I live in the deep south.

Take a Southern Baptist or a non-denom Bible-only Evangelical and drop them into the fifth row at a good Ordinary Form Mass, and watch their jaw hit the floor.

My friend Darren went to Mass for the first time and asked afterward about the Book of the Gospels. I explained what it was, that it contained the four Gospels to be read by the deacon or priest at Mass. He asked, in a perfect genteel southern accent “So the man kissed the Gospel after he read it?” I said that yes, it was the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that he reverences it with a kiss after he proclaims it. Darren slowly nodded his head and said, “Now that’s pretty cool.”

My point is, it’s all relative.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Take all the people who attend the Ordinary Form as if it were unimportant, and put them into the Extraordinary Form, and guess what? They will do the same thing.

People are people. It has nothing to do with the form but with people.

-Tim-
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Same for the priest. Those who abuse the OF will abuse the EF if given a chance.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Same for the priest. Those who abuse the OF will abuse the EF if given a chance.
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Yes, but I think that needs to be qualified. Frankly, I doubt any priest who abuses the Novus Ordo would even consider offering the Usus Antiquior.
 
malphono said:
Yes, but I think that needs to be qualified. Frankly, I doubt any priest who abuses the Novus Ordo would even consider offering the Usus Antiquior.
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Well, that too. But stranger things have happened. I’m just saying that it is not inherent in the EF that it is abuse free. And I think OraLabora gave an excellent metaphor.
 
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