I want to become Catholic but can't

[Euthyphro]

Your status is irregular since you are in a purported second marriage. Have you talked to a canon lawyer? Petrine privilege may apply here since you are unbaptized.

If your prior marriage cannot be resolved, you should be able to be placed in good standing and therefore become initiated into the Catholic faith if you agree and resolve to live continently in your current relationship.

I agree with a prior poster that you won’t get satisfactory advice for this issue on a public forum. However, I do encourage you to persevere to resolve your situation - one’s eternal destiny is worth it. Contact a canon lawyer.

 

[mardukm]

The Pope is not the proper authority to go to on the matter. You need to write a letter to the bishop of the diocese if you want to challenge the decision of the Monsignor.

However, I think the Monsignor is going about this the best way possible.

There are two considerations why he would need to contact your wife:

The first one is to find out if your first wife was Catholic. As someone else has suggested, the Justice of the Peace records of your first marriage should indicate the religion (shouldn’t it?). That would be sufficient to prove her religion. If her father baptized her, then is there a way for you to contact her father for her baptismal records?

If she was Catholic, you need to get an annulment. And that would be the second consideration for needing to contact your wife, because to get an annulment, there must be a mutual agreement by the parties to have the marriage annulled.

Now, if she was NOT a Catholic, you can get your current marriage situation regularized/approved via the Petrine Privilege. For that, the Monsignor, who would represent you in the matter, needs to have concrete proof that she was not Catholic, for he will be going to the Roman Rota itself on the matter to plead your case.

So don’t look at the Monsignor as a villain. I think he is doing what he can to help you out, but he needs your help to do so.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[fbl9]

Not necessarily.

The Catholic Church considers marriages valid based on more than “being Catholic” and secular divorce rules.

the issue here is that i agree with the church in that the church does deem his first marriage as valid thus his second can not be valid in the church.

 

[mardukm]

Your status is irregular since you are in a purported second marriage. Have you talked to a canon lawyer? Petrine privilege may apply here since you are unbaptized.

It was wise of you to mention the Petrine privilege, but the fact that he was unbaptized is not sufficient to appeal to the Petrine privilege. It must also be proven that the other spouse was not Catholic.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[diggerdomer]

If she was Catholic, you need to get an annulment. And that would be the second consideration for needing to contact your wife, because to get an annulment, there must be a mutual agreement by the parties to have the marriage annulled.

Now, if she was NOT a Catholic, you can get your current marriage situation regularized/approved via the Petrine Privilege. For that, the Monsignor, who would represent you in the matter, needs to have concrete proof that she was not Catholic, for he will be going to the Roman Rota itself on the matter to plead your case.

This is not entirely accurate regarding Catholic Church teaching about marriage.

It seems from what you’ve said that both you and your first wife were non-Catholic when you married. Unless there’s an objective compelling reason otherwise, that marriage would be considered valid by the Catholic Church.

So, if you are in a second marriage without having that first marriage annulled, by Catholic understanding you are not in a situation to be able to celebrate Baptism.

Again…talk to someone you can trust locally, in whatever diocese/parish you find most helpful.

 

[YADA]

You need to calmly assess your options and make sure you understand the issues regarding marriages [civil and sacamental], sacraments [you life and what it means to accept Christ and be baptized] and annullments [what an annullment is and what it is not] … it seems like you have misunderstood some of what you were told …

Your first mistake was marrying a catholic without having the validity of your first marriage determined …

for non-catholics, being married before a justice of the peace, civil ceremony or in religious ceremony may be sacramentally valid even if the marriage ends in divorce. The Catholic church starts from the position that they are valid. However, for a catholic person only a marriage witnessed by a priest or in another faith tradition with proper permissions are obtained are considered sacramental.

As for subjecting your marriage to a tribunal now - that is possible … however, the process involves both parties to the marriage - you and your former spouse … plus witnesses on both sides …

You do no need to hire a private detective … you do have to provide contact information to the diocese so that your former spouse can be contacted …

If you do not have her current address you can take reasonable steps to provide that information … hiring a private detective is one way … other methods are to provide legal notification or requests for information in geographic areas [last known address, family home town for example] contacting a friend or acquantance from when you were married, her last employer, her father’s church, her high school or college …

I had a friend who had to go through this exercise … they even went to the local library to access telephone directories for several locations [his last nown residence, his mother’s last know residence]. They even called the numbers of people with the same last name. My friend did not have a lot of money and she was marrying a gentleman who was disabled … they spent months documenting their efforts to locate her ex-husband … doing the leg work [which was harder then - no internet and PC’s - long distance phone call charges, etc] …They also did all of this before getting married and they never co-habitated either … they were dedicaed to each other and having a sacramental marriage - union united with the Holy Spirit they did not set a date until they knew they could truly be united as one.

The key is to make a real effort to provide contact information … document all of your attempts, every effort you make …you will probably find her … you have children together - that is a factor - you were married for 4 years - you must know where you can start a search …

You could live seperately from your spouse - living not as husband and wife - no carnal relations … as you work thorugh this marriage issue… as others have noted - it is not that you are divorced that is keeping you from the sacraments - the issue is that you have contracted a marriage when you may [or may not] have been free to do so … plus you married a catholic outside the church - definately not a recognized marrage for both of you - even if you never had been married …

Whether or not your former spouse was baptized may factor in how the tribunal interprets the evidence of understanding and intent as to the sacramentality of the first marriage but it would not matter if that baptism was as a catholic or another faith tradition … if your former spouse had been catholic and married you by a justice of the peace then th marriage would not have been recognized … so evidence of her baptism may have bearing … .

Good Luck and God Bless, I know th eturmoil of the annullment process first hand … I subjected my first marriage to this scrutiny … not easy but it is healing

 

[diggerdomer]

You need to calmly assess your options and make sure you understand the issues regarding marriages [civil and sacamental], sacraments [you life and what it means to accept Christ and be baptized] and annullments [what an annullment is and what it is not] … it seems like you have misunderstood some of what you were told …

Your first mistake was marrying a catholic without having the validity of your first marriage determined …

for non-catholics, being married before a justice of the peace, civil ceremony or in religious ceremony may be sacramentally valid even if the marriage ends in divorce. The Catholic church starts from the position that they are valid. However, for a catholic person only a marriage witnessed by a priest or in another faith tradition with proper permissions are obtained are considered sacramental.

As for subjecting your marriage to a tribunal now - that is possible … however, the process involves both parties to the marriage - you and your former spouse … plus witnesses on both sides …

You do no need to hire a private detective … you do have to provide contact information to the diocese so that your former spouse can be contacted …

If you do not have her current address you can take reasonable steps to provide that information … hiring a private detective is one way … other methods are to provide legal notification or requests for information in geographic areas [last known address, family home town for example] contacting a friend or acquantance from when you were married, her last employer, her father’s church, her high school or college …

I had a friend who had to go through this exercise … they even went to the local library to access telephone directories for several locations [his last nown residence, his mother’s last know residence]. They even called the numbers of people with the same last name. My friend did not have a lot of money and she was marrying a gentleman who was disabled … they spent months documenting their efforts to locate her ex-husband … doing the leg work [which was harder then - no internet and PC’s - long distance phone call charges, etc] …They also did all of this before getting married and they never co-habitated either … they were dedicaed to each other and having a sacramental marriage - union united with the Holy Spirit they did not set a date until they knew they could truly be united as one.

The key is to make a real effort to provide contact information … document all of your attempts, every effort you make …you will probably find her … you have children together - that is a factor - you were married for 4 years - you must know where you can start a search …

You could live seperately from your spouse - living not as husband and wife - no carnal relations … as you work thorugh this marriage issue… as others have noted - it is not that you are divorced that is keeping you from the sacraments - the issue is that you have contracted a marriage when you may [or may not] have been free to do so … plus you married a catholic outside the church - definately not a recognized marrage for both of you - even if you never had been married …

Whether or not your former spouse was baptized may factor in how the tribunal interprets the evidence of understanding and intent as to the sacramentality of the first marriage but it would not matter if that baptism was as a catholic or another faith tradition … if your former spouse had been catholic and married you by a justice of the peace then th marriage would not have been recognized … so evidence of her baptism may have bearing … .

Good Luck and God Bless, I know th eturmoil of the annullment process first hand … I subjected my first marriage to this scrutiny … not easy but it is healing

This post has a lot of info…some factual, some a bit vague to say the least…again, please contact someone locally that you can talk to and who can fully understand your situation and provide the best guidance.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother diggerdommer,

This is not entirely accurate regarding Catholic Church teaching about marriage.

It seems from what you’ve said that both you and your first wife were non-Catholic when you married. Unless there’s an objective compelling reason otherwise, that marriage would be considered valid by the Catholic Church.

So, if you are in a second marriage without having that first marriage annulled, by Catholic understanding you are not in a situation to be able to celebrate Baptism.

Again…talk to someone you can trust locally, in whatever diocese/parish you find most helpful.

The OP stated he is a non-baptized person, which gets him halfway to be considered for the Petrine Privilege.

The OP would need to get an annulment (hands down) ONLY if the OP himself was a baptized Christian - regardless of whether his first wife was Christian or not.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[diggerdomer]

Dear brother diggerdommer,

The OP stated he is a non-baptized person, which gets him halfway to be considered for the Petrine Privilege.

The OP would need to get an annulment (hands down) ONLY if the OP himself was a baptized Christian - regardless of whether his first wife was Christian or not.

Blessings,
Marduk

Nope

The Catholic Church considers marriages valid between two non-Christians unless proven otherwise. Based on the info shared so far, if both parties were non-Christians, we’d have to assume then that the original marriage was valid.

And, so, if a subsequent marriage was attempted, if either party was Catholic an annulment would be needed for validity of the marriage.

 

[Euthyphro]

It was wise of you to mention the Petrine privilege, but the fact that he was unbaptized is not sufficient to appeal to the Petrine privilege. It must also be proven that the other spouse was not Catholic.

Blessings,
Marduk

This subject is set forth in canon 1150. It is not required that the other spouse be proven to be “not Catholic.” Petrine Privilege (aka “privilege of the faith”) applies to non-sacramental marriages between a non-baptized person and a baptized person (Catholic or otherwise). Three conditions must be met (see CDF instruction Ut notum est), and there are other conditions as well, but as I mentioned earlier, this person needs the advocacy of a canon lawyer, not by way of forum posts from non-canonists.

 

[mardukm]

Nope

The Catholic Church considers marriages valid between two non-Christians unless proven otherwise. Based on the info shared so far, if both parties were non-Christians, we’d have to assume then that the original marriage was valid.

And, so, if a subsequent marriage was attempted, if either party was Catholic an annulment would be needed for validity of the marriage.

That is true, but if one of the parties of that failed marriage wants to marry a Catholic, and become Catholic thereby, then the Petrine Privilege can apply, and that prior marriage dissolved, without having to go through the process of annulment. It is the very fact that the prior marriage between non-Christians is valid that requires the exercise of the Petrine Privilege.

The Petrine Privilege can also be applied to dissolve a prior marriage between two non-Catholic Christians, if one of the parties of the failed marriage wants to marry a Catholic and become Catholic thereby.

The Pauline Privilege, on the other hand, is applied to the Christian who wants to marry again after a failed marriage with a non-believer. If this aforementioned non-believer wants to marry a Catholic and become Catholic thereby, and the marriage has not been previously dissolved via the Pauline privilege, then the non-believer (who wants to become Catholic) would need to have the marriage dissolved first by virtue of the Petrine privilege.

However, if at least one of the parties of a prior marriage is Catholic, then only annulment could apply, which would be the reason the Monsignor requires proof of the other party’s religious affiliation.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[YADA]

This post has a lot of info…some factual, some a bit vague to say the least…again, please contact someone locally that you can talk to and who can fully understand your situation and provide the best guidance.

Sorry if you thought some of what I posted was too vague … You should always contact your local parish priest and diocesan tribunal - they are there to assist with this … you can’t go through the process without them …

Every marriage submitted to a tribunal for a decision is unique …

The OP started off with an unclear and mistaken premise … that they could not become catholic because he was divorced …

That is not the case … it is a divorce and re-marriage - [in this case to a catholic - though any remarriage would be problematic - without a decision on the validity of a previous marriage - not to mention a civil ceremony with a catholic for the second marriage] - that is preventing his reception into the catholic church …

Then there was the statement that the church requires a private detective …

In my personal experience [granted this was not Washington DC, it was over 20 years ago and while every diocese maybe different - they all operate under the same Canon Laws and have similarities] I know that you can show [by documentation] evidence of a your personal search for long “lost” former spouses.

The search has to be real, it has to be public and documented [payment of public notices in the newspaper of record for a community - last known address etc, copies of the telephone book pages with your phone bill showing your calls, receipts for written correspondence - registered mail to their family members and friends]… really, these are the same things you would pay the PI to do - at least this was what my friend did in her search …

Given a real documented effort at locating these people [if in fact their where abouts are unknown] the church would probably not hold a person’s life in limbo forever …

But every case is unigue - TRUE … I am not privy to all of the information in this particular case …

And as to what makes a valid sacremental marriage [especially between non catholics persons] or not …is also something that is not easy to write about in concrete terms but only generally … At least for me …

I am limited - I was just trying to help …

Locating people is much easier these days then in the past . FaceBook, white pages online, MySpace, Reunions …

I think that it is far harder to disappear in todays world - not impossible but not as easy as it was 100 years ago …

 

[mardukm]

YADA;5138224In my personal experience [granted this was not Washington DC:

I know that you can show [by documentation] evidence of a your personal search for long “lost” former spouses.

The search has to be real, it has to be public and documented [payment of public notices in the newspaper of record for a community - last known address etc, copies of the telephone book pages with your phone bill showing your calls, receipts for written correspondence - registered mail to their family members and friends]… really, these are the same things you would pay the PI to do - at least this was what my friend did in her search …

Given a real documented effort at locating these people [if in fact their where abouts are unknown] the church would probably not hold a person’s life in limbo forever …

This is true. The marriage tribunal in fact has specific time limits for pleadings to be answered by certain parties. If there is no response within those time limits, that other party is regarded to have given approval for the annulment or whatnot.

But this does not seem like a case for annulment, because the OP is a non-baptized non-believer who wants to become Catholic. I think the Monsignor realizes this is a case for Petrine Privilege which is why he is being insistent on getting concrete proof for the religious affiliation of the OP’s first wife.

One of the important differences between an annulment case and a Petrine Privilege case is that an annulment case requires the consent of both parties, whereas a Petrine privilege case does not.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[YADA]

This is true. The marriage tribunal in fact has specific time limits for pleadings to be answered by certain parties. If there is no response within those time limits, that other party is regarded to have given approval for the annulment or whatnot.

But this does not seem like a case for annulment, because the OP is a non-baptized non-believer who wants to become Catholic. I think the Monsignor realizes this is a case for Petrine Privilege which is why he is being insistent on getting concrete proof for the religious affiliation of the OP’s first wife.

One of the important differences between an annulment case and a Petrine Privilege case is that an annulment case requires the consent of both parties, whereas a Petrine privilege case does not.

Blessings,
Marduk

Yes, you are probably correct … my first marriage was subjected to annullment … though I think they investigated a Petrine Priviladge [my first husband was not baptized and I was - we were married before a justice of the peace. … based upon his response [or perhaps lack there of - I do not know which] I had to go through the longer process and it was very long … So I do not have experience with the Petrine Priviladge except that it is not always the case i situations where it might apply for some unknown reason …

we lived in different dioceses and one of the first decisions that was made was the determination of which diocese would handle the case - because I brought the case - he had the right to have the diocese in which he lived take over the jurisdiction … this always seemed odd to me - as he is not catholic - but it was his right … …

Me, I just did what they asked, answering all of the questions completely, honestly - trusting that truth would prevail … it was not easy - but it was a healing experience … humbling at times exhausting … but my marriage - in the church - is so much stronger, a perfect example of the addage: “Let go and Let God” … I am married to a wonderful Christian man, our life is centered on Christ - prayer is a daily part of our married experience, we are strengthened by our parish community and our focus on Jesus,

 

[mardukm]

WOW! Your witness is a blessing for me, sister! Your holy patience amidst your trials demonstrate that you yourself are greatly blessed.

Yes, you are probably correct … my first marriage was subjected to annullment … though I think they investigated a Petrine Priviladge [my first husband was not baptized and I was - we were married before a justice of the peace. … based upon his response [or perhaps lack there of - I do not know which] I had to go through the longer process and it was very long … So I do not have experience with the Petrine Priviladge except that it is not always the case i situations where it might apply for some unknown reason …

we lived in different dioceses and one of the first decisions that was made was the determination of which diocese would handle the case - because I brought the case - he had the right to have the diocese in which he lived take over the jurisdiction … this always seemed odd to me - as he is not catholic - but it was his right … …

Me, I just did what they asked, answering all of the questions completely, honestly - trusting that truth would prevail … it was not easy - but it was a healing experience … humbling at times exhausting … but my marriage - in the church - is so much stronger, a perfect example of the addage: “Let go and Let God” … I am married to a wonderful Christian man, our life is centered on Christ - prayer is a daily part of our married experience, we are strengthened by our parish community and our focus on Jesus,

 

[mardukm]

Here’s a general guideline for any who are interested:

For a prior marriage that:

- involves at least one Catholic party:
Only annulment applies.

- involves one non-Catholic Christian and a non-believer:
If the believer wants to marry a Catholic, the Pauline Privilege applies;
If the non-believer wants to marry a Catholic, AND the Pauline Privilege has not yet been exercised, annulment applies;
If the non-believer wants to marry a Catholic AND become Catholic, AND the Pauline Privilege has not yet been exercised, then the Petrine Privilege applies;
If the non-believer wants to marry a Catholic (regardless if he/she becomes Catholic), AND the Pauline Privilege has been exercised for the believing party, then the non-believer is free to marry.
NOTE: I am not certain what the case would be if the Pauline Privilege was granted by a non-Catholic agent. I am 95% sure such an exercise in apostolic Churches would be accepted, but if the agent is a Protestant community, I am not at all sure since Protestants don’t have the sacramental authority of the priestly ministry to bind and loose.

- involves two non-Catholic Christians, or two non-believers:
If one party wants to marry a Catholic, annulment applies;
If one party wants to marry a Catholic AND become Catholic, the Petrine privilege applies;

In cases where a Catholic marries a non-Catholic, a dispensation is normally required from the impediment of disparity of cult. In most cases, the priest is competent to grant the dispensation. In some cases, it must come from the bishop.

Annulment requires a mutual showing of consent
The Petrine Privilege does not require a mutual showing of consent.
I am not sure about the Pauline privilege.
In all cases, there must be proof that the marriage has failed (i.e., proof that the parties no longer intend to be engaged in sexual union).

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. As always, I am open to correction.

 

[Holly3278]

Hi there hopeless in DC. You are in my prayers.

 

[dans0622]

Yes they even had a hearing about it and appointed someone to represent me and still I was refused to be allowed to be baptised because I felt the same as you did and asked why I was not allowed to be baptised and I was told they needed to make sure she was not catholic so they could annuled the marriage and I tried telling them she was baptisted but they said they needed to talk to her to hear it from her, but I have not seen or heard anything from her in 21 years so that’s why I’m at a dead end.

Hello,

I can’t say for sure the reasoning behind these requests for information. But, my guess is that a definite determination of the baptismal status of your former spouse will make the next step in the process easier to choose.

For example, if it is discovered that somehow your former spouse was baptised Catholic, the process for declaration of nullity would be simple.

If it is discovered that she is not baptised, then there is no need for any declaration of nullity since the “Pauline Privilege” would apply. So, if/when you marry again, that first marriage bond would be dissolved. Your former spouse being actually non-baptised is not as unlikely as you might think, since some Baptist baptisms might not be valid (as strange as it may sound).

If it is discovered that your former spouse was baptised, it is possible for a “privilege of the faith” dissolution process to begin. This takes longer than a Pauline privilege case.

I am sure the diocese is trying to avoid that the possibility that you’d have to go through a normal declaration of nullity process–I can’t see why it would be necessary, actually.

Anyway, while it would have been better if this question of her baptism had been answered before, or at least a lot of the background information gathered, I am sure that those you are talking to are trying to do what is best. It is difficult to understand all that can go on behind the scenes, as they say, so your frustration is understandable. All I can say is, try to be patient but also be insistent that this process keeps moving.

Sometimes people say “I could never join any organized religion.” The humorous, but sometimes accurate, response is: “Then the Catholic Church is what you’re looking for.”

Dan

P.S. The situation is not hopeless.

 

[Through_Him]

I went through catechism classes and completed them, and I very much wish to become catholic. Unfortunately because of a previous marriage the archdiocese of Washington D.C will not allow me to become catholic. I was married 26 years ago and my wife left me with my children and divorced me 5 years later and I never seen them after that day. I wanted to become catholic, but I was told by the Mon senior of the archdiocese of Washington D.C that since they cannot talk to her, and verify she is not catholic they cannot allow me to be baptized. I have told them in several emails I know positive she was not catholic because her father was a Baptist minister. Her father died during our marriage, and she was adopted and had no family and although I have tried desperately to find her it has been useless, and I don’t have the money to hire a private detective to find her and it’s been 21 years since I seen or heard from her so I have run into a dead end.

I was wondering if anyone possible has any idea of what I can do or where I can go or who I can write because the mon senior of the archdiocese of Washington D.C is not listening to my plea and I feel hopeless that I may never be baptized. I have never been baptized in any religion in my life and after 47 years I have chosen the archdiocese of Washington D.C to be a catholic, but now they won’t let me. Please help me someone.

This doesn’t seem to be as problematic as you may think.
If her father was a Baptist minister, go to that church and look for records of her baptism. If none he can write that. I had to go to my husbands family and find out the truth and found out he was not baptized in the church I thought. They still had records even 60 years later, in the church I found out did and lot’s of relatives started opening up and telling me the truth. The Church just wants something official to show and you can do the leg work no cost except to travel. Visit the families and relatives and the old people in the baptist family. There may be her bio real family looking to find out more about her. Talk to people before they die or you won’t get the info you need and it will be to late.
You can google her name and pray and let God open the doors. But google that you want to see if she has any relatives not the baptism part. You already know much about it and use what you do know instead of focussing on what you don’t. I warn you there may be hurt feelings along the way but maybe there can be some healing too. I too pray for you and your search. I have found God will open windows when a door is closed and be open too. God bless you and the people you love. I see God wanting to use you for an instrument for his peace.

 

[MikeDunphy]

Here is a petition from the Diocese of Covington for the “Petrine Privilege”. I would imagine that your diocese has something similar.

The requirements are listed as

1. 
   *]the marriage in question remains non-consummated after the baptism of the non-baptized party.
   *]there is no possibility of restoring conjugal life.
   *]the petitioner was not the cause of the breakdown of the conjugal relationship.
   *]the petitioner’s current or intended spouse did not provoke the breakdown of the conjugal relationship.
   *]the petitioner has fulfilled his/her moral and civil obligations toward the first spouse and offspring.
   *]a Catholic party must declare that he/she is prepared to remove all dangers of defecting from the faith. If the petitioner’s current or intended spouse is non-Catholic he/she must declare that he/she is prepared to allow the Catholic party the freedom to practice his/her religion and the freedom to baptize and educate the children as Catholics.
   *]if a dispensation from disparity of cult was granted and a non-sacramental marriage was entered, the case can be presented for examination if the Catholic party intends to enter a new marriage with a baptized party.
   
   I am ignorant of canon law, but based on #1, maybe this delay in your baptism is really a blessing in disguise? The Church expects more from the faithful than from non-Christians, and many civilly married couples would find it difficult to live as brother and sister while they wait for the tribunal to do its work. This is a very difficult situation, but I think that with time, patience and persistence you can reasonably hope to be baptized and have your marriage blessed by the Church.