I was cheated by my bible!

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Heh heh heh Wormwood. I can understand your frustration. I finally got a Catholic bible last year and it was nice to see what I was missing all these ## years!

In fact I was rather angry at old Martin Luthur for taking out some of them! Now I know about Susanna and the elders! (There is an opera based on the chapter in Daniel, and for years I had searched Daniel looking for the story and never could find it. But then, I was looking in my Paralell Bible (protestant bible that has 4 different versions:rolleyes: ) Why that story got deleted by you know who, I’ll never understand. 😃
 
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mhansen:
For your information, … the official Jewish Scriptures that the Protestants have based their Bibles on, while the Catholics have based theirs on the Septuagint, which, as I stated above, has more Books.

Since we would all agree that the whole of Christianity has its roots in Judaism, could it be, just maybe, that the Protestants have it right, since their Bible is based on the “official” Jewish canon?

Hee haw, hee haw!
Yep, the protestants chose in favor of the books selected by the Council of Jerusalem because their choices were, in part, a reaction to the “upstart” Christians who were using “their” Scripture.

At least we all agree that the New Testament is the same everywhere. And as Jesus admonished the Pharisees and Sadducees to at least believe all the Scripture they claimed was Scripture… then we should all do the same… let’s start with John 6: :whistle:
 
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mhansen:
The “additional” books found in the Septuagint were dropped from official Jewish Scripture around 90-100 A.D. That is historical fact. If the Catholic Church wishes to continue to view these books as canon, even though Judaism does NOT, that’s fine. Nobody says they can’t, and that’s not my decision. Many Protestants have decided to go with the offical Jewish canon because (as I stated before) Christianity has its roots in Judaism.

Mike
So… at least till 90-100, the world recognized that the Church included Tradition along with the Magisterium and the (OT)Scriptures, huh :whistle:
 
What are the “scriptures” that are mentioned in the NT?: Since the NT books were not written until at least 20 years after Christ died/rose, the “scriptures” are really just the OT books. I guess that’s pretty obvious.

What were the Scriptures that Jesus and His disciples read?: According to historical analysis, the Greek Septuagint OT.

So, the Catholic Bible contains all the OT books that Jesus and His disciples read. How cool is that!

For Septuagint quotes in the NT, go to: scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html
 
You are right that some Jews decided to use a different set of books than the Christians. This was after Jesus came along and the Christians were separated from the Jews. Since the Catholic Church traces itself to the very beginning we don’t accept the Jewish canon from about 90 AD. Here is a quote from Father Mateo on this.

-Because the deuterocanonicals were either late or not written originally in Hebrew, Jewish authorities excluded them from their canon in 90 A.D. Christians, of course, went right on using them, as patristic literature shows. During the lifetime of St. Jerome, Church synods at Hippo, Carthage, and Rome accepted our present canon, and it received dogmatic status in the Council of Trent.- (quote Father Mateo)

Then Martin Luther came along, to justify his changes he went with the Hebrew version of the scriptures. He set all the Deuterocanonicals at the back of the Bible. Later on they were removed. Some old King James Versions still have them included.

God Bless
Scylla
 
Protestant decisions = Jewish Council decisions ???

Jewish Council decisions = anti-Catholic position ???

Protestant decisions = ???
 
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mhansen:
Nowhere did I say that you HAD to be subject to Jewish canon. Open your eyes, please, and look instead of letting your prejudices speak for you.
My prejudices??? Let me clear the crust from my eyes… ok, you said…
could it be, just maybe, that the Protestants have it right, since their Bible is based on the “official” Jewish canon?.
Meaning that they were subject to the Jewish canon after the fact…maybe I’m making assumptions, but to me this is clearly a logical step… and then you said…
If you don’t want to follow Jewish canon, then why have any of the OT books in there at all? Your logic escapes me.
but I didn’t say not to follow Jewish canon at all… you show no logic… remember you said…
Since we would all agree that the whole of Christianity has its roots in Judaism.
And I agree with you there… and we kept our roots, we followed the messiah and his apostles… and we use Jewish Scripture from the Septuagint. Why do you deny the church its authority to define doctrine… or should I say be overruled by a Jewish council that was formed after the church was already here… I mean… why even have a New Testament ??? The only prejudice I see here is yours…
 
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scylla:
You are right that some Jews decided to use a different set of books than the Christians. This was after Jesus came along and the Christians were separated from the Jews. Since the Catholic Church traces itself to the very beginning we don’t accept the Jewish canon from about 90 AD. Here is a quote from Father Mateo on this.

-Because the deuterocanonicals were either late or not written originally in Hebrew, Jewish authorities excluded them from their canon in 90 A.D. Christians, of course, went right on using them, as patristic literature shows. During the lifetime of St. Jerome, Church synods at Hippo, Carthage, and Rome accepted our present canon, and it received dogmatic status in the Council of Trent.- (quote Father Mateo)

Then Martin Luther came along, to justify his changes he went with the Hebrew version of the scriptures. He set all the Deuterocanonicals at the back of the Bible. Later on they were removed. Some old King James Versions still have them included.

God Bless
Scylla
I don’t dispute any of this. I was merely pointing out the reason behind it all, for better or for worse…that in fact there were a group of Jews way back when that took some books out, and a group of Protestants that decided to follow this canon. I was saying no more and no less. Just presenting facts.

I guess that’s what I get for debating with a bunch of people that would laugh at the Bible anyway, no matter which “version” it is.
 
A point that should be brought up is, why follow the Jews after Jesus had established a Church, used the Greek Canon, they a whole separate community. A Christian community and had already their own set of books.

If the Jews decided to eliminate more books in the year 200AD would you follow them? That is the problem I am having with the logic here. Or is this just to justify removing or diminishing some books which contradicted the belief in Faith Alone?

God Bless
Scylla
 
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CanoeCamper55:
What are the “scriptures” that are mentioned in the NT?: Since the NT books were not written until at least 20 years after Christ died/rose, the “scriptures” are really just the OT books. I guess that’s pretty obvious.

What were the Scriptures that Jesus and His disciples read?: According to historical analysis, the Greek Septuagint OT.

So, the Catholic Bible contains all the OT books that Jesus and His disciples read. How cool is that!

For Septuagint quotes in the NT, go to: scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html
Hhhhhmmmm!! “WWJD” (what would Jesus do?).

Hhhhmmm let’s see,he quoted the Septuagint…hhhhmmm!:hmmm:

Oh I know, I’ll follow Jesus, also call myself Catholic, and used what he used…😃

Or…maybe…:hmmm: , maybe I’ll get with Wormwood and start my own church with “Less information” and get rid of those pesky extra books, and call myself a protestant.:rolleyes:
 
So now I understand why many Lutherans refer to themselves as “Catholic Lite” …cuz their bible is not as heavy as ours.:hmmm:
 
I believe fully in the Bible, it was given to us by the Church. That is why we are defending it and wanting to be preserved. I as a Catholic believe we shouldn’t mess with the Word of God, we shouldn’t mutilate it by removing books. It was preserved for hundreds upon hundreds of years by the Church.
The Bible was compiled so we can use it at Mass and know what is appropriate to use in our worship.

God Bless
Scylla
 
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mhansen:
No sir, my theory is not lacking. I understand which versions of the Bible were printed with which books. The fact remains that the Protestant version of the Bible is based on the official Jewish canon, regardless of when it was officially “adopted.” On the other hand, the Catholic Bible is based on the Septuagint, which is NOT official Jewish canon.

The “additional” books found in the Septuagint were dropped from official Jewish Scripture around 90-100 A.D. That is historical fact. If the Catholic Church wishes to continue to view these books as canon, even though Judaism does NOT, that’s fine. Nobody says they can’t, and that’s not my decision. Many Protestants have decided to go with the offical Jewish canon because (as I stated before) Christianity has its roots in Judaism.

Please, feel free to look it up. The people on this thread made it seem like it was the Protestants who arbitrarily took the books out, when in fact it was done by the Jews centuries ago.

Mike
Christianity definately has its roots in Judaism, and it grows from those roots starting with Christ, our namesake. The fact that Jews themselves tossed books out of Scripture after Catholics were already running around using the Septuagint and writing the New Testament (it was completed before Jews cast out the Septuagint) means nothing to us. Christ quoted the Septuagint, the Apostles quoted the Septuagint, it’s the canon that was used by them, as Jews growing up and as Christians teaching, and it’s the one we use.

The modern Jews are NOT the Jews of the time of Christ, not even close. It would be much more accurate to say that Catholics and Jews share their roots in Ancient Temple Judaism; modern Jews went off in one direction, and Catholics in another. To say that they alone carry the torch of Temple Judaism is completely ahistorical, espescially since it’s Catholics who keep alive the Temple worship where modern Jews do not.

Regardless, your argument has another hole in it, which is that the motivation for Luther to cast out the Deuterocanonicals didn’t end with them, but included books of the New Testament. It was only after much debate that the New Testament wasn’t chopped up just as bad as the Old.

Interestingly, Wormwood’s point about “better understanding through less reading” is precisely the motivating factor behind these edits. Luther couldn’t square the texts of those books (new and old) with his personal interpretation of the other books, so he wanted to drop them (he ended with just dropping the old). Rather than try to rectify it, possibly having to gasp change his personal opinion to match that of the Church’s, he sought to ignore them completely. It’s colored Protestant theology since that very day.

After all, how many Catholics have heard “Jesus didn’t give men the authority to forgive sins” only to point the Protestant debater to John 20:23? We wrote the books and put the Bible together, we’ve definately read it carefully.
 
It’s also important to point out that Catholic Christians, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote the NT between approx. 50 and 110 AD. So, the Catholic Church:

-“wrote” the Catholic Bible
-protected it for 1500 years
-handed it to the “reformers”, who then chopped it up by removing 7 books.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church over the last 500 years continued to protect the holy Scriptures against any and all dissenters, and we are still defending it today.
 
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mhansen:
Nowhere did I say that you HAD to be subject to Jewish canon. Open your eyes, please, and look instead of letting your prejudices speak for you.

If you don’t want to follow Jewish canon, then why have any of the OT books in there at all? Your logic escapes me.
Who peed in your cornflakes??? I’m getting a feeling of frustration or exasperation in your posts - for what reason? I’m sorry if I’m reading something into your posts that’s not there - I don’t mean to offend.

Your profile says you are Catholic. Why are you so against the attitude of Catholics accepting our Catholic canon and not accepting the Jewish canon? Why should Christians accept the Jewish canon? Would you accept the canon/scripture of JW’s? or any other sect? Jews are Jews and Christians are Christians. They share a parentage but believe totaly different things. Why am I supposed to entertain their canon?

www.catholic-convert.com. This is Steve Ray’s site and he addresses this “Council of Jamnia” and the Bible Canon. In the article on the Jamnia council it says that there was no (official) “Council” of Jamnia (as we would know it). The rabbis got together and asked the Roman authorities if they could gather together for purely spiritual reasons. There is no documentation of this “Council”. The Christian canon was talked about because at that time the rabbis felt as though their scirptures had been hijacked to support the new heretical sect of Judiaism. There were only 2 books in discussion - Sirach and Ecclesiastes (I think. It’s been a while since I read the article).

Anyway, the main point is that there was no official council with all the Jewish leaders. Just some of the rabbi’s. The Jewish canon has never been declared closed and the rabbi’s that met didn’t have the authority to do such a thing. Those gathered may have decided to only use the canon they agreed upon at their “spiritual gathering” and other Jews may have decided to follow suit but there was nothing official.

Anyway, read the articles.

If this is the case, then it would seem that poor Martin Luther was following the direction of just a single group of Jews (who, BTW, preached against Jesus in the first place) without any authority. But, then again, maybe that’s where he got the idea! It seems rather telling that Martin Luther would follow the very group that would rather drop some of their centuries old beliefs in order to discredit the man known as Jesus. That would give Martin Luther a very convenient reason for denying the centuries old practices of and belifs of praying to the saints, purgatory, etc. This way he could dicredit the Catholic Church “legitamately!” - in his mind anyway.
 
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Wormwood:
Yeah, I bet you guys knew about this too. How long were you guys planning on waiting before you mentioned that your bible has more books than this pitiful protestant version?! Here I am trying to get a better understanding of christianity, and I don’t even have the full christian text because some books were arbitrarily identified as apocryful (i dunno about that spelling) and therefore heretical or some nonsense. So what books am I missing? Anything ELSE I should know? You guys should be ashamed of yourselves:tsktsk:
😃
Sennacherib
Hi,
Wanna read 'em?
drbo.org/
etext.lib.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html#apocrypha
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM

Have fun my friend! 👍
Pax tecum,
 
Well, I certainly didn’t expect this kind of turnout. A lot of strong opinions here, a lot of good ones too. Just a few points I wanted to comment on:
Please, feel free to look it up. The people on this thread made it seem like it was the Protestants who arbitrarily took the books out, when in fact it was done by the Jews centuries ago.
So the jews came to their church and made them remove those books? The protestants are clearly innocent of any action in this situation right? No, they chose to follow what the jews had done. Motivations are definitely debatable here, but keep in mind that even the jews didn’t fully get rid of the stories. the stories survived as oral tradition and non official writting. If the books in question indeed contain information about the nature of Christ, why discard them?
A point that should be brought up is, why follow the Jews after Jesus had established a Church, used the Greek Canon, they a whole separate community. A Christian community and had already their own set of books.

If the Jews decided to eliminate more books in the year 200AD would you follow them?
Good point…yes…I say shave it all down until you are left with three non-consecutive paragraphs of revelation, the rest of it I will make up on the fly. Church is open for business:thumbsup:
Interestingly, Wormwood’s point about “better understanding through less reading” is precisely the motivating factor behind these edits.
Ghosty said I was right about something? The end time is near…join my revelationist church while you still can!!
Or…maybe…:hmmm: , maybe I’ll get with Wormwood and start my own church with "Less information
Ok you can be my bishop. By the authority invested in me by myself, you are holy; congrats…now save the others.

To Protestants: I am of course being ridiculous. I just don’t see how someone would leave out books that Christ himself used. Even if you think the books are for some reason less valid, why not keep them just to know all you can? Thanks everyone.
 
Doesn’t it say in Rev 22:18-19.

“I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the prophetic book, God will take away his share int the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book.”

I always thought of the Bible as the prophetic book. Sounds to me like noone was to add or remove books from the Bible. So why did anyone take any books out of the Bible when it clearly says not to? If it was Luther who did it and it doesn’t matter to me who did it, they will not have his share of life in the holy city.
 
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