I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[SIA]

Hmmm? I think it smacks of false assumptions and teetering strawmen.
It smells like bigotry.

Not at all. I think it speaks to the very doctrines and dogmas of the RCC and how they differ from what Paul says about salvation.

 

[eucharist04]

I have an encounter with Jesus Christ everyday that I go to Mass. I receive his Word in the Liturgy, then I receive his body and blood in the Eucharist, and Jesus enters my soul. Jesus has always been present in the Catholic Mass, Catholics just have to learn more about their own faith! God bless!

and I take Jesus with me when I leave Mass and fellowship with Him all day.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Not at all. I think it speaks to the very doctrines and dogmas of the RCC and how they differ from what Paul says about salvation.

I have yet to see a passage from any Paul’s epistles that contradicts Catholicism, but I’ll keep my eyes peeled. Besides, Paul wasn’t the only one in Scripture to speak of salvation.

 

[SIA]

I have yet to see a passage from any Paul’s epistles that contradicts Catholicism, but I’ll keep my eyes peeled. Besides, Paul wasn’t the only one in Scripture to speak of salvation.

Understood, but Paul speaks of salvation in ways very contradicting to Catholicism. Salvation by fatih, not by works or merits. James says fatih without works is dead but never makes the claim that works merit saving grace.

 

[jmcrae]

We both have presuppositions concerning whether or not a person justified by God can lose his salvation; however, as I said earlier, your presuppositions are based upon inference, mine are based upon clear statements—those who are justified by the Father, and given to Christ will never perish (Jn 10:28ff).

When did the 1500 years begin; what I read in the writings of the apostles is that those God justified He also glorified.

What you say doesn’t align with what the apostles say.

The writers of scripture never address those to whom they are writing as ”to you who believe, and all of you false professors among them.” But they address those to whom they are writing as though each one were indeed saved.

The Catholic believes that he as a “moral assurance” of salvation, and that he has been saved, is presently being saved, and hopefully, will be finally saved in the future.

Doesn’t your priest in his sermons and homilies exhort you to endurance, in spite of your “moral assurance???”

My moral assurance is for the present moment, only. If I sin in the future, I will lose my salvation. (If not, then why call it “sin,” in the first place? Also, if sinning couldn’t make you lose your place in Heaven, then what’s wrong with it? Why should the Apostles spend so much time exhorting people not to sin? )

 

[jmcrae]

Understood, but Paul speaks of salvation in ways very contradicting to Catholicism. Salvation by fatih, not by works or merits. James says fatih without works is dead but never makes the claim that works merit saving grace.

If faith without works is dead, then how is it that faith without works can merit saving grace?

St. Paul exhorts us to have faith in Christ and to put aside the works of the Old Covenant (Moses) but he never says “faith alone” and nor does he give the impression of thinking that people can continue to commit sin after baptism, without losing their place in Heaven.

 

[SIA]

If faith without works is dead, then how is it that faith without works can merit saving grace?

Nobody said that it does. The works prove the faith. What does Scripture say about Abraham? His belief in Christ saved him lest he cannot boast of his works.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Understood, but Paul speaks of salvation in ways very contradicting to Catholicism. Salvation by fatih, not by works or merits. James says fatih without works is dead but never makes the claim that works merit saving grace.

You’re right. Works don’t merit saving grace, they are our response to saving grace. Anything we “merit” is actually God working through us, to will and to do of His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)

 

[SIA]

You’re right. Works don’t merit saving grace, they are our response to saving grace. Anything we “merit” is actually God working through us, to will and to do of His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)

I can agree with that.

 

[mercygate]

Nobody said that it does. The works prove the faith. What does Scripture say about Abraham? His belief in Christ saved him lest he cannot boast of his works.

But works of faith ARE “saving” works in a way that works **of the law **are not. You have to be careful what *kind *of works and what *kind *of law you are talking about, otherwise you end up with Scripture contradicting itself, which, as we all agree, it does not.

What does Scripture say about Abraham?

James 2:21 – Was notAbraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I can agree with that.

That is the official Catholic teaching, y’know. One of the things I wrestled with in my journey 'cross the Tiber. You hear lots about poor, lost Catholics working their way to Heaven in the denomination I came out of. It’s a total misunderstanding.

 

[jmcrae]

Nobody said that it does.

Then why say that “faith alone” saves, without works?

The works prove the faith. What does Scripture say about Abraham? His belief in Christ saved him lest he cannot boast of his works.

And what did Abraham do? When he received the revelation of God, did he lay on his bed and think, “Wow, that’s really cool; there is an uncreated Creator who loves me!” and then roll over and go back to sleep?

No - he went out into the night, captured a number of different kinds of animals, both wild and tame, built an altar, and sacrificed them, to establish the Covenant with God.

Abraham’s faith was expressed through ritual actions - “works” as you would call them. He did nothing all that different from what the majority of Catholics do at Mass (except that the Mass is a great deal less bloody, of course).

 

[SIA]

But works of faith ARE “saving” works in a way that works **of the law **are not. You have to be careful what *kind *of works and what *kind *of law you are talking about, otherwise you end up with Scripture contradicting itself, which as we all agree, it does not.

What does Scripture say about Abraham?

James 2:21 – Was notAbraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

ultimately it was his faith in God that saved him just as Paul speaks of in Romans. God’s grace comes from faith, not works. If I did good things my whole life but had no faith in Christ, do you think I would have salvation?

 

[mercygate]

ultimately it was his faith in God that saved him just as Paul speaks of in Romans. God’s grace comes from faith, not works. If I did good things my whole life but had no faith in Christ, do you think I would have salvation?

Please take the time to READ what I posted.

 

[jmcrae]

ultimately it was his faith in God that saved him just as Paul speaks of in Romans. God’s grace comes from faith, not works. If I did good things my whole life but had no faith in Christ, do you think I would have salvation?

No.

But if you said you had faith in Christ, but never helped the poor, never went to Church, never read your Bible, never prayed, and never visited the sick, do you still think you would have salvation?

And if you said you had faith in Christ, but were in a sexual relationship with someone who is not your spouse, and you were stealing from your employer, and spent your time gossiping, participating in base, unworthy forms of entertainment, habitually lying, disregarding the needs of your parents and your children, etc., would you still have salvation?

Faith and works go hand in hand. You can’t be saved without both.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

ultimately it was his faith in God that saved him just as Paul speaks of in Romans. God’s grace comes from faith, not works. If I did good things my whole life but had no faith in Christ, do you think I would have salvation?

You’ve got it backwards. Our faith and works come from God’s grace.

 

[jmcrae]

You’ve got it backwards. Our faith and works come from God’s grace.

That’s an excellent point!

God chooses us first, before we ever choose Him.

 

[SIA]

No.

But if you said you had faith in Christ, but never helped the poor, never went to Church, never read your Bible, never prayed, and never visited the sick, do you still think you would have salvation?

And if you said you had faith in Christ, but were in a sexual relationship with someone who is not your spouse, and you were stealing from your employer, and spent your time gossiping, participating in base, unworthy forms of entertainment, habitually lying, disregarding the needs of your parents and your children, etc., would you still have salvation?

Faith and works go hand in hand. You can’t be saved without both.

Then one would be a liar wouldn’t they? Faith in Christ is a huge concept and i don’t pretend to know the majority of what is manifested within that faith. The change in one to become more Christ like comes from Christ and one’s faith in Christ.

 

[cfrancis]

Then one would be a liar wouldn’t they? Faith in Christ is a huge concept and i don’t pretend to know the majority of what is manifested within that faith. The change in one to become more Christ like comes from Christ and one’s faith in Christ.

But any sin we commit makes us a liar, a hypocrite, as we choose, in that moment of sin, ourselves over Christ.
The key is our repentance, our continued turning away (attempt to turn away) from sin and back to Christ.

If we accept that reality, then the opposite is true: the good we do, by the grace of God, is to our benefit and the benefit of the entire body of Christ. Our repentance would be a good that we do, but as Christ tells us in Mt 25, the good we do to others is important.

 

[SIA]

But any sin we commit makes us a liar, a hypocrite, as we choose, in that moment of sin, ourselves over Christ.
The key is our repentance, our continued turning away (attempt to turn away) from sin and back to Christ.

If we accept that reality, then the opposite is true: the good we do, by the grace of God, is to our benefit and the benefit of the entire body of Christ. Our repentance would be a good that we do, but as Christ tells us in Mt 25, the good we do to others is important.

I’m not saying that it isn’t. I’m saying that ultimately our salvations come from our faith in Christ. Without that one thing, nothing else means anything.