I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[Mickey]

It’s by grace, Edwin, as I stated when I was originally asked the question. (Your point “A” is not my position).

I believe that grace is not only necessary for salvation, but is, in and of itself, sufficient; on the basis of Christ’s sacrifice, God is free to grace with eternal life anyone He chooses to grace with eternal life in whatever way He chooses to do so.

You continue to dance around Edwin’s assertions.

 

[Contarini]

It’s by grace, Edwin, as I stated when I was originally asked the question. (Your point “A” is not my position).

Then please explain this previous statement of yours:

Infants receive the same grace as any other unbeliever—none, (other than common grace) until they are able to believe the gospel. If they die in infancy, they’re immediately with the Lord.

This post is the first time I have seen you affirm that infants are saved by grace (it’s a long thread, so forgive me if I missed something). I’m glad that you think this, but I wonder what you meant by the statement above. When you say “it’s by grace,” are you talking about common grace? So you are saying that common grace suffices to save infants but not adults? Could you explain the nature of common grace (in your understanding) a little better? I usually see this phrase used by Calvinists to explain why unbelievers do not in fact behave in thoroughly and consistently evil ways. I have never before seen a claim that people can be saved by common grace alone.

Edwin

 

[banjo]

Originally Posted by sandusky forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

Actually, that’s 1 Cor 10:12; however, at the end of chapter 11, is a proof of the “eternal implications” I stated concerning the Ezekiel 18 passage—God physically kills the sinning believer, but he doesn’t lose salvation (1 Cor 11:29-32).

Typo on my part. I would agree only that the end of chapter 11 is God’s Fatherly love and mercy. That being chastened by God in this life we may turn back to him and avoid eternal condemnation along with those who belong to this world (cf. Heb 12:7-11).

In order to take up the Cross of Christ in a meaningful way, one must first have put off the old man, and put on the new; therefore, I don’t find them to be the same thing, so we disagree.

I think there was a miscommunication here. I agree we must put off the old man and put on the new. That would be the first part of the quote “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” Mt 16:24.

Those justified by God will not turn away from God because He has decreed their complete salvation and made provision for all its contingencies (Rom 8:29-39; cf Eph 1:3ff; Jer 32:40).

I would agree to ‘those who need more help to be saved, get more help to be saved’.

 

[sandusky]

Then please explain this previous statement of yours:

This post is the first time I have seen you affirm that infants are saved by grace (it’s a long thread, so forgive me if I missed something). I’m glad that you think this, but I wonder what you meant by the statement above. When you say “it’s by grace,” are you talking about common grace? So you are saying that common grace suffices to save infants but not adults? Could you explain the nature of common grace (in your understanding) a little better? I usually see this phrase used by Calvinists to explain why unbelievers do not in fact behave in thoroughly and consistently evil ways. I have never before seen a claim that people can be saved by common grace alone.

Edwin

Forgive me, I left out some words.

Infants receive the same grace as any other unbeliever—none, (other than common grace) until they are able to believe the gospel. If they die in infancy, then by grace, they’re immediately with the Lord.

I’ve stated that consistently on this thread.

Feel free to go back and check.

And no, not common grace, but grace that brings them into His presence; IOW, redemption in Christ.

 

[banjo]

It just occured to me that I have never regreted my conversion. When I was saved, no one told me that I have to leave the Catholic religion, I simply believed that Jesus Christ paid for my sins with his blood and I called upon him to save me: just like the Philipian jailer in Acts 16:31. He asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…” He did, and he was. To the saved believer, the thought of someone trying to administer God’s grace through some ritual is the highest form of idolatry there is. Jesus said, “it is finished”, not ‘it’s begun’.

I just hope that people will see that God’s grace is through faith in Christ and not in some man made rituals. May the Lord truly bless every one who is seeking to know him in truth.

I’m curious. Why didn’t you quote the response Jesus gave to the same question (Lk 10:25-37)?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Forgive me, I left out some words.

Infants receive the same grace as any other unbeliever—none, (other than common grace) until they are able to believe the gospel. If they die in infancy, then by grace, they’re immediately with the Lord.

I’ve stated that consistently on this thread.

Feel free to go back and check.

And no, not common grace, but grace that brings them into His presence; IOW, redemption in Christ.

Where is “common grace” in Scripture, and how is it different from “saving” grace?

 

[sandusky]

Where is “common grace” in Scripture, and how is it different from “saving” grace?

Common Grace.

 

[guanophore]

Yes they do…that is why they pay monks and nuns to pray for them.

I think you are confusing intercession with indulgences. Catholics support those who are devoted to a life of prayer because not all of us can devote our whole lives to prayer. For those who are called to do this “the laborer is worthy of his wages”. They need to eat, have clothes, and a roof over their heads, so we all give a portion of our assets to support their material needs while they support our spiritual needs. Do you think this is not Scriptural?

 

[guanophore]

Biblical hope is “confident” (cf Php 1:6).

My confident hope longs to be gone from this world.

If your confident hope leaves the world, however will you survive here?

 

[guanophore]

I came here to learn…Instead I am called a “Jehovah Witness” and get attacked for my form of praising Jesus!

I have learned enough about all of you! Thanks for the important lesson!

:sad_yes:

You may have jumped into the heat of the fray at the wrong time and place. CAF is a great place to learn, but some of us enjoy getting into heated discussions, and are at times (sadly, as you say) oblivious to the sentiments of innocent bystanders. I did not see that you were called a JW. Do you not believe that Jesus is God?

 

[guanophore]

I doubt very much if it was God who made your Protestant.

Most like the other side who did that, wanting to draw as many people away from the Bride of Christ- the Catholic Church.

But God is all loving,He will always seek out those who’ve been led away.

Let’s try to err on the side of generosity, shall we? Those who are brought into Protestant communities through the action of the Holy Spirit working through them cannot be charged with the fault of their spiritual ancestors. Many Protestants don’t know any better, like the OP of this thread, for example. If one understands Catholicism, one will know without a doubt that Christ is at the center of it, and it is not possible to be Catholic without being Christ centered. This type of ignorance of the faith is rampant.

 

[benedictus2]

Let’s try to err on the side of generosity, shall we? Those who are brought into Protestant communities through the action of the Holy Spirit working through them cannot be charged with the fault of their spiritual ancestors. Many Protestants don’t know any better, like the OP of this thread, for example. If one understands Catholicism, one will know without a doubt that Christ is at the center of it, and it is not possible to be Catholic without being Christ centered. This type of ignorance of the faith is rampant.

Sorry. I just get so annoyed when I hear so much lies about the Church peddled as truth. (I know that’s not excuse and bordens on arrogance on my part).

Luther et al has much to answer for.

 

[benedictus2]

Go back to post #485, and read my posts from that to the present.

I’m aware of my position on this, as I’ve held it for years, and I’m aware of what I said.

Infants who die in infancy, and human beings aborted, if saved, are saved by grace. (And I believe that’s what God does).

Hopefully that clarify things for you, Judith.

Hi Sandusky,

Went back to your post #485 and here it is with the corresping question from Gabriel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12
Tell me, I asked this in another thread. It is great that you posses all your faculties and are able to believe your saved. How do infants, the mentally ill, and deaf and mute souls get saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandusky
That would be by grace; your church understands and acknowledges the necessity of grace, but has never understood the sufficiency of it.

---

Grace is indeed sufficient. But the question is HOW? How do these infants who cannot profess faith in Christ (because you conjecture that Faith in Christ is necessary for Salvation), how do these who cannot profess faith receive the grace that is a consequence of believing in Christ?

By your reasoning, either Faith in Christ is an absolute must for salvation or not, because without that Faith, one receives the grace anyway?

So again, How do these infants acquire the grace for salvation?

I asked you this before but you never replied back.

 

[fbl9]

Biblical hope is “confident” (cf Php 1:6).

My confident hope longs to be gone from this world.

so your version of Romans8:24-25 reads like this"For in cofindence we were saved. But confidence that is seen is not confidence.For how can a man be confident for what he sees?25 But if we are confident for what we do not see,we wait for it with patience."as everyone can clearly see this makes no sense whatever…try again please…

 

[sandusky]

benedictus2:

Grace is indeed sufficient. But the question is HOW? How do these infants who cannot profess faith in Christ (because you conjecture that Faith in Christ is necessary for Salvation), how do these who cannot profess faith receive the grace that is a consequence of believing in Christ?

By your reasoning, either Faith in Christ is an absolute must for salvation or not, because without that Faith, one receives the grace anyway?

So again, How do these infants acquire the grace for salvation?

I asked you this before but you never replied back.

Because grace is sufficient.suf•fi•cient \sə-ˈfi-shənt\ adjective

[Middle English, from Latin *sufficient-, sufficiens, from present participle of sufficere]

(14th century)

1 a : enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end

<sufficient provisions for a month> (Or, in this case, for eternity).

b : being a sufficient conditionBecause of Christ’s sacrifice, God is free to give grace to whomever He pleases, in whatever manner He pleases, and no one can dictate to Him otherwise (cf Ps 115:3; Dan 4:35).

The way prescribed for those who’s reasoning is intact is by faith; nevertheless, that doesn’t preclude God from bringing an infant into His presence, by grace alone, at the moment of that infant’s death.

 

[sandusky]

flb9:

so your version of Romans8:24-25 reads like this

“For in cofindence we were saved. But confidence that is seen is not confidence. For how can a man be confident for what he sees?25 But if we are confident for what we do not see,we wait for it with patience.”

as everyone can clearly see this makes no sense whatever…try again please.

You mean to tell me you can’t see heaven???

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Common Grace.

Seems like it would have been easier for you to say, “It’s not in Scripture, Calvinist Reformers made it up.”

I thought you believed in Sola Scriptura? Not a single Scriptural citation in that whole article - not even in the footnotes.

 

[sandusky]

Seems like it would have been easier for you to say, “It’s not in Scripture, Calvinist Reformers made it up.”

I thought you believed in Sola Scriptura? Not a single Scriptural citation in that whole article - not even in the footnotes.

I’m not interested in engaging you in your carp.

Don’t go to carping about sola scriptura, which it seems, along with common grace, you don’t understand.

 

[fbl9]

You mean to tell me you can’t see heaven???

things of heaven yse but heaven it’s self no…but then again you are assured you can see heaven…

 

[guanophore]

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Enjoy the site !
God Bless You.
Shalom,
Catherine

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