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Mickey
Guest
In other words.
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wina
Guest
Thanks Mickey. Learn so many English words here
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Mickey
Guest
Your English is very impressive! God bless you wina!Thanks Mickey. Learn so many English words here
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moondweller
Guest
Read the Psalm apart from your tradition, Mickey. The Holy Spirit never left him (vss. 11-12).Oh I see. It was only the “joy” that was restored. Sheesh! And why did he lose his joy?
Create a clean heart in me, O God: and renew a right spirit within my bowels.
The whole problem is that you’re trying to read N.T. truths into that Psalm. David knew nothing of the GRACE in which the believer in Christ now stands (Rom. 12:1-2). God did not take his sin into account, that’s true, but David, a Jew born under the Law, was not “under grace” but “under Law.”
You confound law and grace.
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Mickey
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Sorry pal. No can do. Sacred Tradition interprets Sacred Scripture.
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jmcrae
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You’re a Reformed Baptist, if I recall correctly.
So, from what I understand, you believe that Baptism is essential for joining believers to the invisible Church, right?
Why? If sacraments are not the mode by which Christ incorporates persons into His grace, then why? Does Christ make useless commandments, simply to test our obedience?
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mercygate
Guest
The Law against murder has not been revoked by the New Covenant. The Law that Paul writes about in Romans is the ritual law: that whole epistle is about Circumcision. The “law written on our hearts” is embedded in Creation and is irrevocable. One must carefully distinguish kinds of law and kinds of grace or else you find yourself inevitably pulled into antinomianism.
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Mickey
Guest
The New is the fulfillment of the Old. Let us look at another part of this Psalm:
4 Wash me yet more from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
What do we have here? Baptism!
How bout this?
9 Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.
Baptism again!!!
Or this?
3 Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy great mercy. And according to the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my iniquity.
The sacrament of Reconciliation!!!
The Holy Mysteries (Sacraments) can be found throughout the Psalms and the Old Testament.
Amazing ain’t it?
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sandusky
Guest
Not really, but close enough.
The essential for being placed into Christ’s church by the Holy Spirit is grace, through faith; baptism is commanded following faith.
I don’t believe they are, Judith; in fact, I’m stymied by the terminology of incorporation into grace; perhaps you’ll clarify that.
The law of God is perfect, and He also tests those who are His in order to strengthen their faith.
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reteeks21
Guest
Can you point out to me where this is referenced in scripture? Thanks ahead of time.
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jmcrae
Guest
But necessary, right? If a person refuses to be baptized, or neglects to be baptized, he can’t serve as an elder or as a pastor in your congregation, and he can’t vote in the annual general meeting; is that not correct? The reason being that he is not yet considered to be a fully professed Christian.
We all come into this world outside of grace. We are born into Original Sin - putting it bluntly, we are all conceived and born into the state of being damned to Hell, barring miraculous interventions from God.
At some point during his lifetime, the Christian becomes incorporated into grace. (Gets saved, becomes born again, or whatever terminology you want to use.) I am asking you how this process works, and what the role of Baptism is in this process.
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sandusky
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Succinctly: Eph 2:8ff.
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sandusky
Guest
Baptism is important, and it’s required by commandment. You need to make the case for its being necessary.
Correct; the reason being that if they had not been baptized, then they had not demonstrated a basic obedience to the command to be baptized.
By grace through faith.
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jmcrae
Guest
How? (What process takes place?)
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Contarini
Guest
This is not a convincing view. If God forgave David, which is an act of grace, then clearly David was under grace. Paul makes clear in Romans 4 that the only way anyone has ever been saved is by grace through faith.
Your dispensationalism is a modern heresy that hacks Scripture to pieces under the pretense of “rightly dividing” it. You will not be able to assume it here. Most of the folks you are talking to do not believe in it. So unless you can convince us to accept the dispensationalist framework in very short order, you will have to make arguments that do not assume that framework.
Edwin
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sandusky
Guest
By being made alive by the Spirit Eph 2:4-5.
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Contarini
Guest
Then what on earth did you mean by saying that “sin does not destroy salvation”?
Fine. Offer your own. If you don’t give one, I will reasonably infer one from what you say and from what I’ve heard Baptists and similar Protestants say in the past.
Edwin
P.S. It occurs to me that you may think of “reception of grace” as a one-time event. I meant the continual reception of grace, which is what “salvation” is.
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jmcrae
Guest
By what outward signs?
How would someone who doesn’t make use of the Sacraments know - that is, what outward signs would he notice - that he had moved out of the state of being damned to Hell, and into the state of grace? (So as to be certain that he was not merely thinking wishfully, or deceiving himself.)
(Especially if he is allowed to continue in sin after entering the state of grace, given the assumption that sin cannot remove grace.)
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moondweller
Guest
Or blinds you to its meaing.Sorry pal. No can do. Sacred Tradition interprets Sacred Scripture.
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sandusky
Guest
Because it doesn’t. That’s why the covenant of grace is, well, grace, you get what you don’t deserve, and the covenant of law was justice, you get what you deserve.
As the Psalmist asks, “If you Lord, should mark our iniquities, who could stand?”
What do you think is the answer to that question?
Salvation is not about perfection, but grace; those who are saved will continue to sin, as within each of them there still dwells the principle of evil and sin, and if, while the Lord is reconciling to the world to Himself through Christ, He doesn’t hold sin against them, how much less will He do so once He’s redeemed whom He will?
Grace is not a license to sin, but the redeemed are not perfect.
Then you’ll continue to be reasonably and inferentially wrong.
Correct, and as I’ve said, the only mention of a “falling from grace” is in Gal 5, and it’s specifically linked to seeking to be justified by Law, or works, and it’s the recipient who’s actively resisting the grace, and not God withholding it, according to the grammar.
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