I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[sandusky]

You have no such thing.

All you have is empty promises that have been given to you by men with a fallible interpretation of scripture.

All of what I’ve listed are the promises of God.

It’s the fallible interpretations you believe that are empty.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

All of what I’ve listed are the promises of God.

It’s the fallible interpretations you believe that are empty.

God did not promise you what you believe that he did. You have been misled by men.

Christ was very clear that we must persevere and endure in order to gain salvation.

We can respond to God’s grace or reject it.

A single response to God’s grace isn’t sufficient.

We must take up our cross and follow.

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”

John 15:4-6 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?”

1 Chronicles 28:9 “If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever”.

 

[sandusky]

God did not promise you what you believe that he did. You have been misled by men.

I don’t follow men, I follow Christ—get your thinking wrapped around that truth—I have the fullness of truth in the revelation of God to man.
CHESTERONRULES:

Christ was very clear that we must persevere and endure in order to gain salvation.

Persevere the justified must, and persevere the justified will as perseverance is a provision of non-works based salvation.

CHESTERTONRULES:

We can respond to God’s grace or reject it.

Efficacious grace to perseverance cannot be rejected—even the CC teaches that.

CHESTERTONRULES:

A single response to God’s grace isn’t sufficient.

I disagree, and I thank you for concurring with my statement that for Catholics, grace is necessary for salvation, but for them, grace is not sufficient (depending upon which Catholic you talk to).

CHESTERTONRULES:

We must take up our cross and follow.

The justified must, and the justified will.

 

[Soutane]

In Christ I have the complete forgiveness of sins, and you don’t.

In Christ I have a permanent right standing with God, and you don’t.

In Christ I have the assurance of eternal life based upon His promises and power, and you don’t.

All of the above are based upon the traditions and inventions of men NOT guided by the holy spirit.All of the above are in fact prideful sins of presumption.St Paul advises us to work out our salvation in fear and trembliing and to persevere to the end-that doesn’t sound like the blanket go to heaven card that you are espousing.Please don’t wind up before Christ’s throne saying "Lord,Lord…"Pray instead that He says to you “well done good and faithful servant”

 

[cazayoux]

I have Robert, and it’s Trent’s position that in spite of Christ’s sacrifice, a debt for sin is still owed, and that debt must be paid by the debtor.

I’m surprised I have to revert to this example.
Action and debt are two different things.

If a child in the neighborhood playing baseball breaks my window I will forgive the child. I’m not even mad. However, I still expect him to pay for my window.

Forgiveness for the action of that child is obtained and a debt for the window remains.

michel

 

[Robert_in_SD]

It’s a list of what I have in Christ, and what you don’t have in your church—what we’ve been discussing; the best thing to do is to believe it.

Like I said… I’ll pray for you. I’ll pray for you even though you apparently don’t think you need it. I appreciate any prayers you offer for me, even if they come from a “doctrinally challeged” point of view.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[mercygate]

Provide the specific writings of the specific apostles that specifically articulate the IC. :coffeeread:

The selection from St. Vincent of Lerins in today’s Office of Readings addresses the development of doctrine. St. Vincent lived in the 5th Century:

Is there to be no development of religion in the Church of Christ? certainly, there is to be development and on the largest scale. Who can be so grudging to men, so full of hate for God, as to try to prevent it? But it must truly be development of the faith, not alteration of the faith. Development means that each thing expands to be itself, while alteration means that a thing is changed from one thing into another. The understanding, knowledge and wisdom of one and all, of individuals as well as of the whole Church, ought then to make great and vigorous progress with the passing of the ages and the centuries, but only along its own line of development, that is, with the same doctrine, the same meaning and the same import.

The religion of souls should follow the law of development of bodies. Though bodies develop and unfold their component parts with the passing of the years, they always remain what they were. There is a great difference between the flower of childhood and the maturity of age, but those who become old are the very same people who were once young. Though the condition and appearance of one and the same individual may change, it is one and the same nature, one and the same person.

The tiny members of unweaned children and the grown members of young men are still the same members. Men have the same number of limbs as children. Whatever develops at a later age was already present in seminal form; there is nothing new in old age that was not already latent in childhood.

There is no doubt, then, that the legitimate and correct rule of development, the established and wonderful order of growth, is this: in older people the fullness of years always brings to completion those members and forms that the wisdom of the Creator fashioned beforehand in their earlier years.

If, however, the human form were to turn into some shape that did not belong to its own nature, or even if something were added to the sum of its members or subtracted from it, the whole body would necessarily perish or become grotesque or at least be enfeebled. In the same way, the doctrine of the Christian religion should properly follow these laws of development, that is, by becoming firmer over the years, more ample in the course of time, more exalted as it advances in age.

In ancient times our ancestors sowed the good seed in the harvest field of the Church. It would be very wrong and unfitting if we, their descendants, were to reap, not the genuine wheat of truth but the intrusive growth of error.

On the contrary, what is right and fitting is this: there should be no inconsistency between first and last, but we should reap true doctrine from the growth of true teaching, so that when, in the course of time, those first sowings yield an increase it may flourish and be tended in our day also.

 

[sandusky]

**All of the above are based upon the traditions and inventions of men NOT guided by the holy spirit.**All of the above are in fact prideful sins of presumption.St Paul advises us to work out our salvation in fear and trembliing and to persevere to the end-that doesn’t sound like the blanket go to heaven card that you are espousing.Please don’t wind up before Christ’s throne saying "Lord,Lord…"Pray instead that He says to you “well done good and faithful servant”

:doh2:**Isaiah 55:7-9

7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the Lord, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.

9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

The context is God’s forgiveness—you don’t understand it, because you think God is just like you—He’s not.

Jeremiah 31:34

“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 10:17

“And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”** Trent hasn’t forgotten the debt of your sins, but God has.

Suit yourself. Follow tradition.

 

[sandusky]

cazayoux:

I’m surprised I have to revert to this example.
Action and debt are two different things.

If a child in the neighborhood playing baseball breaks my window I will forgive the child. I’m not even mad. However, I still expect him to pay for my window.

Forgiveness for the action of that child is obtained and a debt for the window remains.

Thanks for supporting me in this.

What cazayoux has illustrated is Trent’s position—you still have a sin-debt to pay.
Contrast Trent’s position with God’s position—He’s forgiven all of the believer’s transgression, “having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Col 2:13-14).

Salvation is not a basketball in which windows get broken.

It’s the forgiveness of sins, and the establishment of peace between the rebellious sinner, and His God, and the Good News is that the hostilities are over forever between him and His God. Read the verses above again (cf Rom 5:10).

 

[jmcrae]

I am not judging you-however if i have offended you please accept my apologies.I know exactly what you are referring to but not all forms of protestant worship are evangelical,pentecostal or fundamentalist in nature.

In fact, that’s only the tiniest minority. The vast majority of Protestants style their worship around either the Order of the Mass or the Order of the Liturgy of the Hours, with small stylistic deviations between congregations.

Most people here would find them very reverent indeed.

 

[sandusky]

Robert in SD:

Like I said… I’ll pray for you. I’ll pray for you even though you apparently don’t think you need it. I appreciate any prayers you offer for me, even if they come from a “doctrinally challeged” point of view.

Thank your for you sarcasm toward the “doctrinally challenged,” Robert, but I know you’re wrong.

My prayer to God for you, is for Him to show you the way of foolishness, rather than allow you to run to the end, only to find out, after it’s too late, that you’re wrong (1 Cor 1:18).

 

[Lilyflower]

The only “rituals” that Catholics believe always convey grace are the sacraments, which we can surely all agree are not man-made.

Catholics also believe in “sacramentals,” but these are simply means that increase one’s devotion–they do not intrinsically convey grace, as far as I understand Catholic theology.

Your objection may well apply to indulgences–I’m not going to defend Catholics on this one, but at least they don’t think indulgences have anything to do with their eternal salvation.

Edwin

The Lord Jesus Christ bless you brethren.

Blessings and peace.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Thank your for you sarcasm toward the “doctrinally challenged,” Robert, but I know you’re wrong.

My prayer to God for you, is for Him to show you the way of foolishness, rather than allow you to run to the end, only to find out, after it’s too late, that you’re wrong (1 Cor 1:18).

I only said what I said (with smiley) because you’ve manifested the same sarcastic attitude toward me. Nevertheless, I appreciate your prayer and know it is offered in good faith. I offer the same good faith prayer to God for you.



Peace,
-Robert

P.S. - Tonight I’ll play Amazing Grace on the pipes for you as well. A good protestant tune.

 

[pete_29]

I’ve already nailed it down, and thanks for the compliment.

You have eyes, but you do not see.
You have ears, but you do not hear.
The Pharisees had it “nailed down” too, but couldn’t recognize Christ in their midst because they “knew it all”.
I pity you for your lack of humility if for nothing else.
I won’t respond to your posts anymore because it’s just :banghead:

 

[De_Maria]

:doh2:Isaiah 55:7-9

7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the Lord, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.

9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

The context is God’s forgiveness—you don’t understand it, because you think God is just like you—He’s not.

Jeremiah 31:34

“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 10:17

“And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Trent hasn’t forgotten the debt of your sins, but God has.

Suit yourself. Follow tradition.

Problem is Sandy, that you don’t know what that means:
2 Samuel 12:13-14
13And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David***,* The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. **
14Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, *the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. *

If we ask the Lord’s pardon, our sins are forgiven. Even so, everytime a Christian sins, he gives occasion for the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme. For that they have to pay. If not in this life, then in Purgatory.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

I find nothing in the scripture saying the elect will not attain salvation. I recognize that there are difficult passages that seem to suggest that;

:dancing:
sandusky;4275943:

however, when one organizes and prioritizes all of the soteriological passages, and moves from the stronger to the weaker passages, the difficulty disappears.

Wow. This is the best description I have read for “arrange to fit”.

IMO, the important verse in the passage is v 18, "…take care how you listen”

[to the word].

Notice as well, the role of “hearing” in each of the soils.

Indeed! apparently one must organize, prioritize, pick out soteriological passages, move from the stronger to the weaker etc, etc. It sure does seem to take a lot of care!

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.[/indent]

Do you think your evangelizing here at CAF may make it’s way to some of the elect, and they might be saved?

 

[guanophore]

Provide the specific writings of the specific apostles that specifically articulate the IC. :coffeeread:

Such a question erroneously presupposes that everything we have received from the Apostles is in writing, and also that all of the inspired-inerrant writing was done by an Apostle.

IOW, you can’t provide them; OTOH, I can tell you how the canon came about.

Indeed, it is clear that the NT was produced 100% from Catholic Sacred Tradition, and that it was defined by that same Tradition. The same source of the development of the doctrines of the nature of Christ, the Trinity, and the immaculate conception.

Correct.

Because guanophore states that the IC was taught by the Apostles.

If it were, you should be able to produce proof of that—so produce.

None of these doctrines of the faith are matters of “p roof” they are articles of faith. This is the faith that has been handed down to us from the Apostles. IT is the same source of all the doctrines, and the NT, which came even later than the others.

That is like saying “the Trinity was not taught by the Apostles, because no Apostle wrote the word”

The apostles didn’t articulate the canon of scripture; you should know that.

Not directly, but it was their direct teaching that made it recognizable from the other 400+ writings floating about at the time. And, we all agree that the decision made by the Catholic Church, on the basis of that Apostolic Teaching, is infallible.

it’s Trent’s position that in spite of Christ’s sacrifice, a debt for sin is still owed, and that debt must be paid by the debtor.

You are misunderstanding the canon. What the Church is stating is that, though our sins are blotted out, sometimes there remains the temporal consequences of them, and that it is incumbent upon us, as much as it is in our power, to redress these, and make reparation for the harm that our actions have caused.

Sure you are; you insist that a temporal debt remains; if there’s a debt, then they haven’t been blotted out completely. If you want to deceive yourself on this, go ahead, but don’t try to deceive me.

Perhaps you can explain, then, how it was that God was clear to David that he was forgiven, but that he would still have to pay a temporal consequence?

Or, try this one. Supposing a teenage girl gets out of hand with her boyfriend, and finds herself pregnant. She confesses her sin, and receives His forgiveness. However, she does not want to have to live with the effects of the pregancy. Since her sin is blotted out, and the temporal consequences, can she just abort the baby with impunity?

The testimony is that the Father, having made me alive together with Christ, has FORGIVEN all of my transgressions, and cancelled all of the debt pertaining to them.

I think you might be adding a little something to the scripture here. There is no place in scripture that says “debt pertaining to them” is necessarily blotted out with the sin.

IOW, concerning this “blotting out,” God disagrees with Trent who insists that a debt remains—God says there isn’t any debt, Trent says “no God, there’s still a temporal debt.”

The language in which Paul describes justification is legal—the transference of the righteousness of Christ into my empty account.

Furthermore, the key to all of this, is that SIN NO LONGER HAS POWER OVER ME…

Man’s problem is that apart from Christ, he exists in the SPHERE, OR DOMAIN OF SATAN AND DARKNESS, but when he dies to Christ, he’s no longer under Satan’s rule (Rom 6:14; cf Col 1:13-14).

But Paul also makes it clear, that even though that’s true, it’s also true that man will sin, as a residual effect of the Fall (Rom 7:21-23; cf Gal 5:17) however, he no longer has to sin.

See above.

You don’t understand the “Calvinist position” at all, Robert, and, forgive me, that’s because you don’t understand what’s being said in scripture.

Read Romans 6, Col 1:13-14; 2:8-15; 3:1-12, 2 Cor 5:17—you’re so far away, so very far away.

Thank you Robert for the Catholic understanding; I, however, am staying with the biblical understanding.

They were warning the Reformers and Catholics that sin is not completely blotted out, but that a debt is still owed.

I am thinking for myself, and have drawn my own conclusions.

According to Trent, Christ’s sacrifice did not pay the sinners sin-debt in full. Per Trent, “a further payment of debt is required of the debtor either here in this world, or in purgatory.”

I know what you’re asking, Robert.

 

[wina]

Yes.

Then, do you think that you are still saved even when you have sins and don’t repent?

 

[guanophore]

Suit yourself. Follow tradition.

You have yet to address any of the examples given:

David’s loss of his first child
the thief on the cross
the pregnant girl
the boy who broke the window.

So far, you are striking out!

Thanks for supporting me in this.

What cazayoux has illustrated is Trent’s position—you still have a sin-debt to pay.

The debt is not related to the sin, but it’s effects.

Contrast Trent’s position with God’s position—He’s forgiven all of the believer’s transgression, “having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Col 2:13-14).

Indeed. Catholic believe that the remission of sins makes us pure - white as snow.

Salvation is not a basketball in which windows get broken.

No,l it is even more serious. Souls are harmed by our deeds, or by our neglect. Our own souls are damaged, and there are many far reaching consequences. the state of the economy is a good example. A small minority of citizens, motivated by greed, have nearly bankrupted the whole country. The effects of their sin are too broad to even begin to measure.

It’s the forgiveness of sins, and the establishment of peace between the rebellious sinner, and His God, and the Good News is that the hostilities are over forever between him and His God. Read the verses above again (cf Rom 5:10).

Yes, and this is our spiritual state. However, we have not yet entered the eternal reward. We are still in this world, though not of it. we are here to be light and salt to the earth, and to the extent that we fail, we are falling short of God’s intention for our present life.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I don’t follow men, I follow Christ—get your thinking wrapped around that truth—I have the fullness of truth in the revelation of God to man.

Persevere the justified must, and persevere the justified will as perseverance is a provision of non-works based salvation.

Efficacious grace to perseverance cannot be rejected—even the CC teaches that.

I disagree, and I thank you for concurring with my statement that for Catholics, grace is necessary for salvation, but for them, grace is not sufficient (depending upon which Catholic you talk to).

The justified must, and the justified will.

Why do you ignore these scriptures?

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”

John 15:4-6 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?”

1 Chronicles 28:9 “If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever”.