I was refused Holy Communion cause I knelt to recive

[aussie_melkite]

Today I attened the 12:15 pm Mass at St. Stephen’s Cathedral in brisbane, Queensland, Australia.

Im an eastern Catholic have have been raised in both Latin and Byzantine Traditions of the Church and whilst Im really not a fan of the Novous Ordo I wont generaly speak ill of it…( I generaly try not to attend cause I find it does more to dammage my faith)

however over the last weeks ive been trying to go to one novous ordo mass a week during the weekdays and have started to enjoy it (though id never consider doing it on sundays) Today however i decided to recieve the Holy Communion in the Traditional Roman postiture “kneeling” (as I peronaly love this devotion and it makes me feel that I am truly humbling myself before the lord) except one i was on my knees the Priest refused me the Holy Communion and told me to “get up” and “we dont do that here”
and i replied to him “father i belive im within my rights to recieve the eucharist kneeling.”
his responce was you have no rights under cannon law"

and so i stood up and he eventualy he gave me holy communion…Im am angry and humilated, and I will never receive Holy Communion in a Roman Catholic church ever again…in fact its doubtful ill ever attend another Roman mass again…lucky for me Im an Eastern Catholic (even though there are very few eastern churches here, i may simply return to the Orthodox Church from which my family originaly came)

but my question is was he within his rights to refuse me Holy Communion beacuse i choose to Kneel?

 

[dbacks5439]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! You are to show him specifically in Canon Law that you were correct. If he still refutes, then tell him he’s acting just like the apostles were when they refused children to come to Jesus. If he still won’t budge, you are to go to the Latin Rite Bishop that is in the priest’s diocese and bring the matter to him. Also, you can contact the Canon Lawyer of the diocese to talk to the priest. Please, do not rest until the matter is resolved.

 

[scylla]

but my question is was he within his rights to refuse me Holy Communion beacuse i choose to Kneel?

No, he was not within his rights and is denying the Catholic faith by refusing to offer you communion when you are just adhering to the Catholic faith and showing legitimate reverence for the Blessed Sacrament.
This Priest has betrayed the Church and should be corrected and led to repent. Do not judge the Church because of the actions of Priests\Bishops\laypeople. Look at what is right and what should be done, you have a right to practice the Catholic faith and show reverence for Christ.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[pray4peace]

You are not to be denied Communion, however, each country does have the choice of the norm, and thus the communicant should do what is the norm in the particular church or parish. Standing is the norm for the United States, and everyone is to do the same as a show of unity.

I am not sure how they handle things in Australia, but I would think they are not to refuse giving Communion there either.

Here is the information on this:

ewtn.org/expert/answers/communion_posture.htm

I am sorry you were treated this way and offended.

Blessings

 

[Catholig]

You are not to be denied Communion, however, each country does have the choice of the norm, and thus the communicant should do what is the norm in the particular church or parish. Standing is the norm for the United States, and everyone is to do the same as a show of unity.

I am not sure how they handle things in Australia, but I would think they are not to refuse giving Communion there either.

Here is the information on this:

ewtn.org/expert/answers/communion_posture.htm

I am sorry you were treated this way and offended.

Blessings

Norms are fine but receiving on the tongue while kneeling is the universal normative way of receiving communion, and it cannot be forbidden due to some local custom.

Catholig

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I know your feelings. One time in my parish I was in the first pew. The person sitting at the end was infirm so the priest came over to the pew to give him communion and then moved alone the pew to each of us. I thought I would receive while kneeling but he stood there and gave me such a look that I stood up to receive. I knew this priest had issues when it came to anyone he thought was not respecting authority. So I got over it but it was very upsetting at the time.

It may be that the latin rite bishop in your diocese had asked the faithful to receive while standing (standing is also a posture of respect) and to the mind of that priest you were being purposely disobedient. Obviously he had some problem. For all you know, last week he had mentioned that very thing and there you were, flouting his very words. And really, communion is not the time to be arguing about rights anyway and you wisely stood up rather than prolong the confrontation.

Even though to my mind what the priest did was wrong, he didn’t deny you the Eucharist. Please, please, please don’t stay away from mass because of this one experience, painful as it was. Try to forgive that miserable man! Offer up this humiliation to the Lord.

I would suggest that you send your original post to the bishop with a cover letter. It would surprise me if the bishop didn’t communicate with that priest that that was unacceptable behavior on his part. And I’m sure it’s untrue that you have no rights under canon law.

 

[BellsAndSmells]

…but my question is was he within his rights to refuse me Holy Communion beacuse i choose to Kneel?

He had no right to refuse you communion. In the USA he has the responsibility not only tp give you communion, but to counsel you outside of Mass on the importance of the normative posture for receiving communion in the USA:

***GIRM 160 *– The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

No document since the release of the latest GIRM in any way viciates paragraph #160.

While this is certainly not the case in your situation, I’m not sure how I would respond if I was a priest that took the time to counsel a member of my flock on this incendiary issue and then she/he defiantly ignored the Church and did their own thing anyway.

It’s fascinating how many will focus on the fact you are indeed not to be denied communion, yet they rarely discuss the possible ramifications of ignoring a priest’s instructions on the importance of following the norm which comes directly from the Church

 

[aussie_melkite]

Im afraid this diocess is notorous for it liberalism and often boredes the hertical…
for instance we have one church (just down the road from where I live) called St Marys South Brisbane; where they celebrate there own special non-papal approved Mass, where the priest wears no vesments and the laity themselves have been known to preform the “concercration”, and recently it was decided that all baptisms that have been prefromed in the Church for the last 10 years are invalid cause the priest baptised them in “the name of the creater, liberator, and sacntifier”…the Bishop only did somthing about it when Rome MADE HIM

I doubt this Bishop is going to listen to my plea…
I consider myself Loyal to the Church, but there is only so much spiritual abuse that a Catholic can live with before he/she asks “is it worth staying with Rome??? especialy when there are perfctly valid Communions being celebrated in our Sister Churches (Orthodox Churchs)”

I though the tides were turning for people like myself, I thought with Pope Benedict and his “Summorum Pontificum,” that people with traditional inclinations would finaly find some protection and be able to practise the faith we believe in…but the truth is (epecialy after today) I dont know if I truly fit in with the Catholic Church anymore…I will always consider myself “Catholic” but maybe union with Rome isnt right for people of Eastern/Byzantine/Latin traditional inclinations

 

[BellsAndSmells]

Im afraid this diocess is notorous for it liberalism and often boredes the hertical…
for instance we have one church (just down the road from where I live) called St Marys South Brisbane; where they celebrate there own special non-papal approved Mass, where the priest wears no vesments and the laity themselves have been known to preform the “concercration”, and recently it was decided that all baptisms that have been prefromed in the Church for the last 10 years are invalid cause the priest baptised them in “the name of the creater, liberator, and sacntifier”…the Bishop only did somthing about it when Rome MADE HIM

I doubt this Bishop is going to listen to my plea…
I consider myself Loyal to the Church, but there is only so much spiritual abuse that a Catholic can live with before he/she asks “is it worth staying with Rome??? especialy when there are perfctly valid Communions being celebrated in our Sister Churches (Orthodox Churchs)”

I though the tides were turning for people like myself, I thought with Pope Benedict and his “Summorum Pontificum,” that people with traditional inclinations would finaly find some protection and be able to practise the faith we believe in…but the truth is (epecialy after today) I dont know if I truly fit in with the Catholic Church anymore…I will always consider myself “Catholic” but maybe union with Rome isnt right for people of Eastern/Byzantine/Latin traditional inclinations

Have you considered simply following the norm for communion reception posture in your country? You could offer-up any pain doing so might cause you directly to God and His Son.

 

[BellsAndSmells]

Norms are fine but receiving on the tongue while kneeling is the universal normative way of receiving communion, and it cannot be forbidden due to some local custom.

Catholig

Where is that defined? Receiving communion on the tongue is the normative way. In-hand requires and indult. This is not true of posture from what I understand.

 

[aussie_melkite]

Have you considered simply following the norm for communion reception posture in your country?.

No. cause I dont belive in it. my Conscience wouldnt allow it…recieving Holy Communion standing and in the hand is a protestant thing…and whist I would never discrimate against a Catholic who choose to recieve in that way, why should I sacrifice the Catholic way to recieve Communion for the protestant way of recieving…and even more than that Im am Eastern Catholic…for us Tradition plays a big part in our lives and in Worship. the idea that you cna changes things like “the postiture for holy communion” and even the Liturgy itself is madness…and frankly we dont understand it…I just want to practise my faith quietly and revently without interfece from the Roman Priests…Im afraid that whist we Eastern Catholics love our Pope, we often look at the Roman Church and its Bishops as bullies

 

[Dauphin]

Im am angry and humilated, and I will never receive Holy Communion in a Roman Catholic church ever again…in fact its doubtful ill ever attend another Roman mass again…lucky for me Im an Eastern Catholic (even though there are very few eastern churches here, i may simply return to the Orthodox Church from which my family originaly came)

Just find a Traditional Latin Mass! You’ll feel perfectly at home, and your devotion will be completely welcome.

 

[Dauphin]

Im am Eastern Catholic…for us Tradition plays a big part in our lives and in Worship. the idea that you cna changes things like “the postiture for holy communion” and even the Liturgy itself is madness…and frankly we dont understand it…

Don’t worry! Alot of us think it’s madness too. Consider finding a Traditional Latin Mass nearby - you’ll see how reverent Catholic liturgy can be. There are many communities that hold exactly the views you do; our received traditions are of great importance. The practices of the ancients bring with them immense reverence and meaning. The Holy Spirit has guided the organic liturgy and has shaped its venerable tradition.

I just want to practise my faith quietly and revently without interfece from the Roman Priests…Im afraid that whist we Eastern Catholics love our Pope, we often look at the Roman Church and its Bishops as bullies

I’m not sure about the others in the Australian church, but I happen to think George Cardinal Pell, the Archbishop of Sydney, is brilliant. I heard him preach at my Cathedral here in Kingston, Canada yesterday (He’s experiencing a Canadian winter ). If he’s a bully, he’s a bully for tradition!

 

[aussie_melkite]

I’m not sure about the others in the Australian church, but I happen to think George Cardinal Pell, the Archbishop of Sydney, is brilliant. I heard him preach at my Cathedral here in Kingston, Canada yesterday (He’s experiencing a Canadian winter ). If he’s a bully, he’s a bully for tradition!

funny u should mention him…I shoot an email off to him not long ago…I soppose considering hes over there he wont be able to reply to it for ahwile lol

 

[Dauphin]

funny u should mention him…I shoot an email off to him not long ago…I soppose considering hes over there he wont be able to reply to it for ahwile lol

He’s back on the plane to Australia by now. I’m sure he’s on your side on this one, but I’m also sure he’s a busy man, so he might not be able to reply directly.

 

[BellsAndSmells]

No. cause I dont belive in it. my Conscience wouldnt allow it…recieving Holy Communion standing and in the hand is a protestant thing…and whist I would never discrimate against a Catholic who choose to recieve in that way, why should I sacrifice the Catholic way to recieve Communion for the protestant way of recieving…and even more than that Im am Eastern Catholic…for us Tradition plays a big part in our lives and in Worship. the idea that you cna changes things like “the postiture for holy communion” and even the Liturgy itself is madness…and frankly we dont understand it…I just want to practise my faith quietly and revently without interfece from the Roman Priests…Im afraid that whist we Eastern Catholics love our Pope, we often look at the Roman Church and its Bishops as bullies

Have you prayed on what you are communicating to us; the absolute need to kneel for communion no matter what the Church instructs? What makes you discount what the Church instructs us to do? You say your conscience will not allow you to follow what the Catholic Church is clearly directing you to do? Why is that? How could that be? How is it that you have set yourself up as the arbiter of what is “Protestant?” Do you really believe the Church through its Teaching Magisterium would foist a “Protestant” or even a non-optimal direction upon us? If you answer is “yes”, how could that be? Why would God, through His Church via his Teaching Magisterium do that to His people?

If you attend a Byzantine Catholic Church of any tradition, you already stand while receiving communion. Why is it not “Protestant” in that setting? Because the norm dates from a long time ago? If you are able to follow the Church in that setting, why not within the Latin Rite?

(N.B. I have treated aussie_melkite as if he was an American or as if Australia has the same rules regarding communion posture as the US. This may or may not be the case.)

 

[aussie_melkite]

Have you prayed on what you are communicating to us; the absolute need to kneel for communion no matter what the Church instructs? What makes you discount what the Church instructs us to do? You say your conscience will not allow you to follow what the Catholic Church is clearly directing you to do? Why is that? How could that be? How is it that you have set yourself up as the arbiter of what is “Protestant?” Do you really believe the Church through its Teaching Magisterium would foist a “Protestant” or even a non-optimal direction upon us? If you answer is “yes”, how could that be? Why would God, through His Church via his Teaching Magisterium do that to His people?

If you attend a Byzantine Catholic Church of any tradition, you already stand while receiving communion. Why is it not “Protestant” in that setting? Because the norm dates from a long time ago? If you are able to follow the Church in that setting, why not within the Latin Rite?

(N.B. I have treated aussie_melkite as if he was an American or as if Australia has the same rules regarding communion posture as the US. This may or may not be the case.)

Firsty the Church instructs that I have the choise to keel or to stand.

secondly yes standing is a Protestant postiture all you need to do is read the reformers works such as Calvin, Crammer etc…they insited on standing cause they believed it would show that the Holy Communion is nuffing beyond bread and wine. you can read that for yourself

and thirdly your right standing is the norm is a Byzantine/Eastern Church…but the eastern Church has differnt cultural customs customs from the Latin Church, was is historaly acceptable in one church wasnt acceptable in another…and the Eastern Church was bearly touched by the Protestant reformation and thus diddnt need to protect itself the way Rome did…The idea of Standing to recieve Holy Communion in the Roman church is questionable…however as I said in previous posts “I will not judge a Catholic for wnating to recieve in that way” and in like manner I dont wish to be judged for recieveing kneeling…however you cannot compare the Eastern Tradition of Standing with the Modern Roman/Protestant theology of standing…they have diffent Theologies behind them.
ars
an Orthodox Monk from cananda that i befreinded afew year back (he was here to pain the inteoror of a russian church) told me that he wishes the Roman Church would make kneeling the norm again.

 

[Brendan]

Have you considered simply following the norm for communion reception posture in your country? You could offer-up any pain doing so might cause you directly to God and His Son.

Countries like the US and Austraila have two Norms.

Canonically, there is a Universal Norm of kneeling. That applies everywhere in the Latin Church.

Some countries have adopted a Particular Norm of Standing. A Particular Norm does not override a Universial Norm, unless the Vatican specifically approves it to do so.

The Vatican has stated that the Particualr Norms for Standing do have not been approved in such a way as to invalidte the Universal Norms.

THe next effect is that we are given a choice of two, “legally” accetptable postures.

One might stand as a demostration of unity with the local congregation, or one might kneel as a demonstration of unity with the Universal Church.

 

[BellsAndSmells]

Firsty the Church instructs that I have the choise to keel or to stand.

secondly yes standing is a Protestant postiture all you need to do is read the reformers works such as Calvin, Crammer etc…they insited on standing cause they believed it would show that the Holy Communion is nuffing beyond bread and wine. you can read that for yourself

and thirdly your right standing is the norm is a Byzantine/Eastern Church…but the eastern Church has differnt cultural customs customs from the Latin Church, was is historaly acceptable in one church wasnt acceptable in another…and the Eastern Church was bearly touched by the Protestant reformation and thus diddnt need to protect itself the way Rome did…The idea of Standing to recieve Holy Communion in the Roman church is questionable…however as I said in previous posts “I will not judge a Catholic for wnating to recieve in that way” and in like manner I dont wish to be judged for recieveing kneeling…however you cannot compare the Eastern Tradition of Standing with the Modern Roman/Protestant theology of standing…they have diffent Theologies behind them.
ars
an Orthodox Monk from cananda that i befreinded afew year back (he was here to pain the inteoror of a russian church) told me that he wishes the Roman Church would make kneeling the norm again.

If you have the option in Australia, then you don’t have the disobedience issue you would have here in the USA. As far as being the arbiter of what is Catholic and what is Protestant – that’s not up to you.

 

[BellsAndSmells]

Countries like the US and Austraila have two Norms.

Canonically, there is a Universal Norm of kneeling. That applies everywhere in the Latin Church.

Some countries have adopted a Particular Norm of Standing. A Particular Norm does not override a Universial Norm, unless the Vatican specifically approves it to do so.

The Vatican has stated that the Particualr Norms for Standing do have not been approved in such a way as to invalidte the Universal Norms.

THe next effect is that we are given a choice of two, “legally” accetptable postures.

One might stand as a demostration of unity with the local congregation, or one might kneel as a demonstration of unity with the Universal Church.

See posting #7.