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childofmary1143
Guest
That “Mass” would be invalid as ANY attempt by lay people to consecrate the bread and wine would invalidate it.
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rayne89
Guest
While the priest was incorrect your attitude is also incorrect. This response of indicting the entire Roman Catholic Church by refusing to ever recieve communion in such a church because of one priest’s actions is both immature and prideful. God may be trying to teach you humilty through this situation -to submit to the authority of one of his priests since it is the norm in your area.
How does you conscience not permit what is acceptable to the Church? We need to always seek to do God’s will not our will. Please pray about this.
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Brendan
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Yes, I am well familiar with the GIRM. I was specifically addressing the Canonical status of GIRM 160, that it is a Particular Norm ( one specific to a particular country) and it’s status relative to the Universal Norm of kneeling.
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Phemie
Guest
The Vatican has already made it abundantly clear that even in Canada and the US there is no disobedience involved in opting to kneel to receive Communion.
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pray4peace
Guest
I believe this says it all :
"160. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
This norm seeks a single posture among communicants.
The Catholic church is the only church that believes in the pope’s authority, Greek Orthodox do not.
"160. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
This norm seeks a single posture among communicants.
- The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered. Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice."
The Catholic church is the only church that believes in the pope’s authority, Greek Orthodox do not.
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VociMike
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Umm, going against the norm is not an issue of disobedience, since the USCCB has not commanded the norm.
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Phemie
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Even more, the Congregation for Divine Worship, in the Feb. 26, 2003 letter signed by Mons. Mario Marini, Underscretary, made clear that:
“while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that the communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.”
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Walking_Home
Guest
I believe this says it all :
"160. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
This norm seeks a single posture among communicants.
You see the Catholic church is about unity as a whole unit or body of Christ, we pray and move as one. Spiritual guidance from the Pope and Bishops help keep us to this unity . If we want to go about doing our" own thing", then we can go to another faith where there is no direction or unity, and things change every time the wind blows.
- The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered. Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice."
The Catholic church is the only church that believes** in the pope’s authority**, Greek Orthodox do not.
And this is what the CDW —who has the authority to interpret how the GIRM is to be applied — states concerning the matter of kneeling for communion.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/cdw2002.htm
In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.
Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and—if the complaint is verified—that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future.** Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse**.
…
To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.”
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bpbasilphx
Guest
<<Norms are fine but receiving on the tongue while kneeling is the universal normative way of receiving communion,>>
Standing is the universal normative way–in the East, anyway.
The Western Rite is NOT the whole of the Catholic Church.
Standing is the universal normative way–in the East, anyway.
The Western Rite is NOT the whole of the Catholic Church.
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dixieagle
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It has been my understanding that, in the Eastern Church, the traditional posture for indicating reverence is standing (my husband is Ruthenian.) If you’re a Catholic of one of the Eastern churches, I don’t understand why standing is so upsetting to you???
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zagjames
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This might be of interest in this discussion. I hope that this movement within the Curia gains strength and kneeling to recieve on the tounge becomes normative, and the only option (exceptions on the kneeling for health reasons of course).
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0800606.htm
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0800606.htm
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BellsAndSmells
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GIRM 160 – The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
No document since the release of the latest GIRM in any way viciates paragraph #160.
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BellsAndSmells
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So very true.
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BellsAndSmells
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What?
GIRM 160 – The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
No document since the release of the latest GIRM in any way viciates paragraph #160.
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lizaanne
Guest
So very grateful and blessed to be at our parish where we kneel at the rail and receive on the tongue. Yes - I follow the norm (standing/kneeling wise) if I’m at another parish, but I refuse to receive in the hand. That would be where I would have to draw the line, so I know how he feels. I would also be just as angry.
Ausie - I hope you find a parish home soon. And I do hope you will not completely turn away from the Latin Church.
~Liza
Ausie - I hope you find a parish home soon. And I do hope you will not completely turn away from the Latin Church.
~Liza
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captaincoog
Guest
Can anyone enlighten me as to the exact “reasons for this norm”?
Is it along the same lines as the reasons for lay extraordinary minsters of Holy Communion, Female altar servers, Communion in the hand etc.? Archbishop Ranjith has recently addressed some of these practices and reccommended they be abandoned.
Have these allowances increased devotion and belief in the real prescsnce of our Lord in the Eucharist, or have they done just the opposite?
We have to wait a little longer with patience until these norms are removed and packed up for ever.
While I submit to the church oficials’ authority to make these changes, I also do my best to avoid the Masses where these things take place and take my family to the EF every Sunday, with a huge effort and a 120 mile round trip in the car.
I want my children to see what the church believes with their own eyes as they grow and are formed in the faith. Unfortunatley that is not guaranteed to happen at just any Mass these days, although I am optimistic for the future.
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mdgspencer
Guest
In a diocese in Texas in the United States a few years ago several priests would deny communion to those who knelt to receive communion. There were complaints to the Vatican about this, and the Vatican sent a very forceful letter to the bishop of that diocese (which appeared in the Catholic press) insisting that it is a serious offense to deny the faithful communion for such a reason. In fact, at the end of this letter, the bishop was warned that if this continued the Vatican would take this very dimly. I’m afraid that I don’t have a link to this letter at the moment, but will provide on on Monday if anyone wants (I work in a library, and in fact came across this letter there last week).
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Phemie
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From the Congregation for Divine Worship on just this topic.
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Phemie
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I’ve known communicants in Canada who knelt and were refused communion then were arrested and charged with “disrupting a religious service”. They were found guilty and appealed it all the way to the Supreme Court where they were found not guilty.
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Catholig
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Bpbasilphx,
I was talking about the Latin Rite, because this incident took place in a Latin Rite Church.
Catholig
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