I was told my beliefs were immoral? - help?

[ThomasRent89]

Hello CAF, I have a question. I’m sorry to make my first post a downer but after Googling around for a while, CAF seemed to be a good place to go.

I began attending Mass at a new parish today and on my way out, a parishioner stopped me by my car. He pointed at the bumper stickers on my vehicle and then proceeded to really light into me, I was more than taken aback.

My car is decked out in various conservative stickers for either GOP candidates or talking point messages. I’ve always been a pretty typical neoconservative and a student of supply side economics. From my own readings, especially of post Vatican II material I’ve always thought these things to be pretty reconcilable.

This parishioner though began to tell me how supporting a “classical liberal” political party and that I was supporting (classical) liberal republican thought. I was supporting manifest heresy and that my beliefs were putting my salvation in serious danger.

Is this all true? Does the Catholic Church really teach that these things are evil? I’ve always been aware of Church social teaching but I’d never heard it presented like this before… I always thought I was doing my best to follow social teachings but according to this parishioner, everything I believe about politics and economics is morally reprehensible in the eyes of God… I’m more than slightly shaken…

I’d love to hear other peoples’ thoughts on this…

 

[1ke]

What did your bumper sticker say?

 

[puzzleannie]

who elected this nosy parishioner bishop? did you ask him if the pastor has given him the authority to challenge fellow parishioners on such a basis as the message on their bumper sticker, T-shirt or tattoo?

 

[ThomasRent89]

What did your bumper sticker say?

Well my several bumper stickers are “You Can’t Be Catholic and Pro Choice,” “Supply Side for the Future,” “Brownback 08,” and “Capitalism IS moral.”

 

[ThomasRent89]

who elected this nosy parishioner bishop? did you ask him if the pastor has given him the authority to challenge fellow parishioners on such a basis as the message on their bumper sticker, T-shirt or tattoo?

I was too taken aback to really say anything, I’m new to town and this was my geographical parish and didn’t want to start off with confrontation. I’ve always been involved in various ministries at my past parishes and no one has ever called me on my secular beliefs before…

 

[Tomb54]

welcome to CAF and I am sure people here will try to help. Do not be discouraged if some are judgmental as some here can be. You can also ask an Apologetic if need be. The Catholic Church as wide views in many areas but most of it is not going to far to the right or left as this is where people tend to get in trouble with views too one sided so knowing what the bumper sticker said might help us answer your question better.

 

[ThomasRent89]

welcome to CAF and I am sure people here will try to help. Do not be discouraged if some are judgmental as some here can be. You can also ask an Apologetic if need be. The Catholic Church as wide views in many areas but most of it is not going to far to the right or left as this is where people tend to get in trouble with views too one sided so knowing what the bumper sticker said might help us answer your question better.

Thanks, I just posted what my stickers are. I’m not a super far right guy, I’m just your every day Republican with some Tea Party leanings, but most of all I just want to be a good Catholic, which I thought I was being…

 

[Tomb54]

Well my several bumper stickers are “You Can’t Be Catholic and Pro Choice,” “Supply Side for the Future,” “Brownback 08,” and “Capitalism IS moral.”

I would guess the Brownback 08 is for a candidate? Does he stand for what the CC teaches (is he against Abortion?)

I really can’t see anything wrong with the other ones but I am not sure I understand them for sure. The Capitalism one is ok in my opinion as the Church has come out against extreme socialism but extreme Capitalism could be bad too but your sticker is ok with me so I see not problem with it.

Supply Side for the Future if I understand right just means we need to make things here to have a sound future if this is right again I see nothing wrong here and I have seen the other sticker on many, many Catholic bumpers.

I think I would ask him what he thinks the bumper stickers are saying so you can understand where he is coming from as this sounds like a misunderstanding on his part some way in which I do not comprehend.

 

[1ke]

Well my several bumper stickers are “You Can’t Be Catholic and Pro Choice,” “Supply Side for the Future,” “Brownback 08,” and “Capitalism IS moral.”

I’m not even going to address the parishioner, who is just plain stupid and rude.

I was interested in what set him off, as you said you had studied Catholic social and moral teaching and didn’t believe you were in any way in opposition to the Church’s teachings. I don’t believe you are either.

With regard to one in particular: Capitalism *can *be moral, but I think there are caveats, unfettered it can be immoral too. But, on the balance it is the best system that respects the human person, dignity of work, and justice.

 

[ThomasRent89]

Thank you for your kind reply. This was how I’d always seen it, that an issue like capitalism was nothing doctrinal and that there was room for agreement and disagreement and tha adhering to it was not grounds for damnation like this parishioner insisted… I’m not sure if I’ll be going back to this parish…

 

[ThomasRent89]

I’m not even going to address the parishioner, who is just plain stupid and rude.

I was interested in what set him off, as you said you had studied Catholic social and moral teaching and didn’t believe you were in any way in opposition to the Church’s teachings. I don’t believe you are either.

With regard to one in particular: Capitalism *can *be moral, but I think there are caveats, unfettered it can be immoral too. But, on the balance it is the best system that respects the human person, dignity of work, and justice.

Thank you as well for your reply. I actually had found a sticker that said “can be” but I thought it might get misconstrued. I’m certainly no proponent of crony capitalism or wage slavery. I view capitalism is a system which has the potential to allow for the most equality and the most justice so long as it is being implemented with the respect for the dignity of the worker and the business owner. Justice has always been a passion of mine, and I’ve always taken a keen interest in justice issues ever since I took a Catholic justice issues class in high school. So for me, I’m extremely passionate about CST, and the way I read it, the best hope for implementing authentic social justice and dignity is through the employer and not the government.

Thanks again for your reply.

 

[ThomasRent89]

I would guess the Brownback 08 is for a candidate? Does he stand for what the CC teaches (is he against Abortion?)

I really can’t see anything wrong with the other ones but I am not sure I understand them for sure. The Capitalism one is ok in my opinion as the Church has come out against extreme socialism but extreme Capitalism could be bad too but your sticker is ok with me so I see not problem with it.

Supply Side for the Future if I understand right just means we need to make things here to have a sound future if this is right again I see nothing wrong here and I have seen the other sticker on many, many Catholic bumpers.

I think I would ask him what he thinks the bumper stickers are saying so you can understand where he is coming from as this sounds like a misunderstanding on his part some way in which I do not comprehend.

Yep, Brownback is the Catholic governor of Kansas who ran for pres in 2008. I’m just your ordinary capitalist, I’m not an extreme libertarian or anarchist or anything, so it always seemed fine to me.

The supply side was just basically from this new pro supply side economics group that I got online.

The guy’s main point was by subscribing to even just standard American capitalism and American politics I was supporting “liberal democracies.” I have a feeling this guy was probably a more radical traditional Catholic as I’ve heard that sort of anti-American rhetoric from them before. (not saying they’re all like that though.)

 

[1ke]

Yep, Brownback is the Catholic governor of Kansas who ran for pres in 2008. I’m just your ordinary capitalist, I’m not an extreme libertarian or anarchist or anything, so it always seemed fine to me.

The supply side was just basically from this new pro supply side economics group that I got online.

The guy’s main point was by subscribing to even just standard American capitalism and American politics I was supporting “liberal democracies.” I have a feeling this guy was probably a more radical traditional Catholic as I’ve heard that sort of anti-American rhetoric from them before. (not saying they’re all like that though.)

I presume he meant “classical liberal” to mean libertarian.

 

[ThomasRent89]

I presume he meant “classical liberal” to mean libertarian.

From the brief conversation/grilling, it seemed he meant anything that wasn’t written by Chesterton or a distributist… I also recall being called a modernist at least three times in the course of the “discussion.”

 

[GratefulFred]

Welcome to Catholic Forums, Thomas.

Anyone educated well enough in Catholic Church teachings would not approach you that way. Yes, it was shocking coming from one who just attended Mass, but disagreement, in and of itself, is not proof of immorality.

There are many Catholics who are pro-choice, but I would think them to be Catholics not in good standing with Church teaching. Life is a gift from God; it is most precious and good Catholics should always stand against Pro-Choice as your sticker infers.

Capitalism is like most things: It all depends on how you use it. Capitalism can be very abusive and thus immoral in its use. But, with proper constraints, Capitalism has improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people all over the world. I would encourage you and others to read Pope Leo XIII’s great encyclical, RERUM NOVARUM, now about 120 years old, on the Condition of Capitalism and Labor.

Politics, in general: The Church teaches us about our Spiritual Life. The Church is careful to be circumspect about most political issues. It is our responsibility to discern just how we apply our spiritual values in our political world. For example: should we force the rich to pay more in taxes or not? Just what level of financial support should be given to the poor? Who is poor versus who is lazy? Etc. Reasonable Catholics and Christians can hold different views on most issues.

You can also find something called, “The 5 non-negotiables.” I may have the title off a bit. But you can find it. I would think you are on solid moral ground defending the 5. Other issues may be properly debated. The test is LOVE and not CONTROL of others.

 

[ThomasRent89]

Welcome to Catholic Forums, Thomas.

Anyone educated well enough in Catholic Church teachings would not approach you that way. Yes, it was shocking coming from one who just attended Mass, but disagreement, in and of itself, is not proof of immorality.

There are many Catholics who are pro-choice, but I would think them to be Catholics not in good standing with Church teaching. Life is a gift from God; it is most precious and good Catholics should always stand against Pro-Choice as your sticker infers.

Capitalism is like most things: It all depends on how you use it. Capitalism can be very abusive and thus immoral in its use. But, with proper constraints, Capitalism has improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people all over the world. I would encourage you and others to read Pope Leo XIII’s great encyclical, RERUM NOVARUM, now about 120 years old, on the Condition of Capitalism and Labor.

Politics, in general: The Church teaches us about our Spiritual Life. The Church is careful to be circumspect about most political issues. It is our responsibility to discern just how we apply our spiritual values in our political world. For example: should we force the rich to pay more in taxes or not? Just what level of financial support should be given to the poor? Who is poor versus who is lazy? Etc. Reasonable Catholics and Christians can hold different views on most issues.

You can also find something called, “The 5 non-negotiables.” I may have the title off a bit. But you can find it. I would think you are on solid moral ground defending the 5. Other issues may be properly debated. The test is LOVE and not CONTROL of others.

Thank you so much for this post. Rerum Noverum actually was one of the Church documents that set the ball rolling on my conversion from the Community of Christ to Catholicism in high school.

 

[EricFilmer]

Well my several bumper stickers are “You Can’t Be Catholic and Pro Choice,” “Supply Side for the Future,” “Brownback 08,” and “Capitalism IS moral.”

For you to be guilty of heresy (as this parishioner stated) then, according to the Catholic Church’s understanding of the term, you would need to be in a post-baptismal persistent state of denial of an official teaching of the Catholic Church of a matter pertaining to faith and morals. With that in mind, let us examine your bumper stickers:

1. “You Can’t be Catholic and Pro-Choice.” No heresy here. As a matter-of-fact, Catholics who are pro-choice are the ones in danger of being in a state of heresy.
2. “Supply Side for the Future.” I don’t know much about economics and how this stacks up with Church documents on economic applications of social justice. But, generally speaking, for an economic policy to be considered heresy, it would have to be pretty extreme (in an immoral sense). I briefly glanced through wiki’s definition of supply side economics and, unless I missed something, did not see anything that concretely opposed Church doctrine (i.e., I didn’t spot any heresy).
3. “Brownback '08”: For the sake of others reading this thread, this refers to Senator Brownback, a pro-life Catholic with orthodox Catholic beliefs who ran for president in the U.S.A. during the 2008 election (he dropped out pretty early). I supported his presidential campaign also, after reading an interview with him in likewise orthodox Catholic publications (I think it was either the National Catholic Register or Our Sunday Visitor - maybe both). There was nothing heretical in supporting his presidential campaign.
4. “Capitalism IS moral”: In his book Jesus of Nazareth, Pope Benedict XVI condemned distorted types of capitalism which exploit the poor. He has not condemned capitalism in general. He also clarified that his economic statements were not doctrinal and therefore Catholics were free to contradict him. Plus, as far as I can tell, Vatican City (which is an independent country ruled by the pope) uses capitalism as its economic system. Capitalism can be problematic, but it can also be moral. With all this in mind, even if it capitalism can be problematic, stating “Capitalism IS moral” is not heretical.

Conclusion: Based on the little information I have, I would say that there is nothing heretical about your bumper stickers or the sentiments they express. So the guy in the parking lot has called you a heretic and I have said that you are not. For what it’s worth, I have two masters’ degrees in theology and have extensively studied moral theology in a seminary. If this comes up again, this guy needs to prove his accusation by presenting the specific official Church doctrine(s) that your beliefs contradict. I’m guessing that he will not be able to do this, and is probably under the irrational notion that God “obviously” agrees with his personal political & economical leanings.

 

[tuscany]

Welcome to CAF!
I don’t see anything that was Anti Catholic teaching on your bumper stickers.
Maybe this person is a busy body, woke up on the wrong side of the bed, or
was just having a bad day and saw you standing there. Who knows?
Maybe the devil made him do it! If your beliefs are immoral, then I guess mine are too.

I think your bumper stickers were fine, and I would have asked you where you
got the one that said, “You can’t be Catholic AND pro choice”, it’s great.
IMO, you are fine!

 

[ThomasRent89]

Welcome to CAF!
I don’t see anything that was Anti Catholic teaching on your bumper stickers.
Maybe this person is a busy body, woke up on the wrong side of the bed, or
was just having a bad day and saw you standing there. Who knows?
Maybe the devil made him do it! If your beliefs are immoral, then I guess mine are too.

I think your bumper stickers were fine, and I would have asked you where you
got the one that said, “You can’t be Catholic AND pro choice”, it’s great.
IMO, you are fine!

Thank you for the charitable outlook toward the gentlement. I constantly pray for greater charity on my own part. Not to derail my own thread, but I got the pro life sticker from my parish priest back in Arizona before I moved out east. I think he got it from the Knights.

 

[Abu]

ThomasRent89
You’re on the right track with free enterprise.
The term “capitalism” was coined by Karl Marx as a pejorative term to condemn wealth and foment class warfare. The capacity to motivate work and the reinvestment of profits constitute the driving force for the productivity of free enterprise. The Popes have condemned socialism and exposed the errors of the Welfare State.

In today’s world it is vital to explain what free enterprise is about. No wonder Pope Benedict XVI felt it necessary to teach that “Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations…Therefore it is not the instrument that must be called to account, but individuals, their moral conscience and their personal and social responsibility.” (Caritas et Veritate, Benedict XVI, 2009, #36). [My emphasis].

Until people get to know the free enterprise laws discovered and developed by the Catholic Late Scholastics, and what they mean, the confusion will be endless. People can, and some do, undermine the common good, and the primary role of government is to support families in solidarity, and the role of the Church in subsidiarity, and that’s why we need laws to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, and against monopolies. Dr Alejandro Chafuen: Economics “is the study of the formal applications that can be deduced from the fact that human beings act purposefully. It does not consider whether these actions are good or bad (an ethical question). Economic science is value free. It analyses cause and effect relationships that, if true, are scientific….only human acts can be judged morally.” (Christians For Freedom, Ignatius, 1986, p 33).

In 1931, we were taught: “…lastly, summoning to court the contemporary economic regime and passing judgment on Socialism, to lay bare the root of the existing social confusion and at the same time point the only way to sound restoration: namely, the Christian reform of morals. [Pius XI in *Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, 15].[My emphasis].

Pope John Paul II warned:
“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.”
(Centesimus Annus, 48, John Paul II, 1991).

Another aspect of free-will is the teaching that the freedom of the individual is the freedom so forcefully declared in the Encyclical Letter *Sollicitudo Rei Socialis *(On Social Concerns), 1987, #42, by Pope John Paul II: “Likewise, in this concern for the poor, one must not overlook that special form of poverty which consists in being deprived of fundamental human rights, in particular the right to religious freedom and also the right to freedom of economic initiative.” [My emphasis].

In the parable of the talents, Jesus lauds the servant who has multiplied talents – “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mt 25: 14-30). Christ certainly praised the wise use of the fundamental right of economic initiative and prudence in this parable.

Reality is: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Put another way – easy come, easy go. Anyone who thinks that curtailing self-reliance is good is not facing reality.

Pope John Paul II teaches in Centesimus Annus, 1991:
CA 42. ‘Returning now to the initial question: can it perhaps be said that, after the failure of Communism, capitalism is the victorious social system, and that capitalism should be the goal of the countries now making efforts to rebuild their economy and society? Is this the model which ought to be proposed to the countries of the Third World which are searching for the path to true economic and civil progress?
‘The answer is obviously complex. If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.
‘CA 43. The Church has no models to present;’ [My emphasis].

Supply side is one of many theories and schools of economics, and you might consider seriously the Austrian school with the insights of Dr Thomas E Woods, Jr.