I was visited by Jehovah's Witnesses

[Rolltide]

**If the Jehovah’s Witnesses are indeed the correct faith, why are so few people across the world in the organization? **
Matt. 7:13,14 shows this would be the case. Don’t expect the true religion to be the one most people go to. Jesus said the true path would have relatively few people on it.

That passage could just as easily refer to the Catholic Church. If you take into consideration that only about 1/6 of the Earth is Catholic, and out of that group, there will of course still be sinners that don’t take their faith seriously, then there is no problem. This passage cannot really be used to identify one particular religious group over another.

How are so many fundamental errors explained?
Human error? Over zealous? Running ahead of God’s timetable?

Perhaps, but there are SO MANY critical, fundamental errors that were BASIC tenants of JW faith, and the faith has no history prior to the 1800s. First holidays were ok, and now they’re not, because they derive from pagan traditions, and so must be avoided. Nevermind that the JW’s used to publicly celebrate Christmas at the Watchtower headquarters, or that they are still allowed to wear wedding rings, which do indeed derive from a pagan tradition.

“Even though Christmas is not the real anniversary of our Lord’s birth, but more properly the annunciation day or the date of his human begetting (Luke 1:28), nevertheless, since the celebration of our Lord’s birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect toward him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrates - “Christmas Day”” - Watchtower, Dec. 1, 1904, p. 364.

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/1917_JW_Christmascard.jpg

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/JW_1910_Christmas.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/xmascard.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/bethel-christmas3.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/prez-xmas.psd.jpg

By the way… Doesn’t current JW belief hold that Jesus was not crucified, but died on a “torture stake”? As you can see by the use of the cross in the imagery of the Christmas cards above, this belief certainly didn’t hold true before 1916. If your entire belief is in flux, how can you possibly know what is right?

The same question could be asked of the Catholic church.

Not really. Although certain traditions within the Catholic Church have evolved and undergone some development, the basic core beliefs are the same as they were from the early days of the church. This belief that the Holy Spirit protects the core beliefs of Catholics is what separates our beliefs from those of the JW’s, which simply change theirs when they find that they have misinterpreted something.

Remember, the Catholic church once taught the earth was the centre of the universe based on Aristotle rather than the Bible.

This was a widely held theory, but not an article of faith.

(Galileo had to recant for fear of his life) Now the Church acknowledges they were wrong.

This was explained well above. Galileo was NOT persecuted for his belief in the heliocentric theory, but for proclaiming it as fact and interpreting how it could be reconciled with the Bible without permission.

I hear they have now accepted evolution as a fact and apologised to Darwin. Does that mean the Church now denies what Genesis 1:27 says?

No, it makes no claim as to how Genesis is to be interpreted either way. It neither says evolution is false OR a fact, and Catholics are free to believe either, WITH the caveat that you must STILL believe in a literal Adam and Eve as the first created humans.

Yes, the JW’s have had numerous false alarms and adjustments in their beliefs over the years. Though fundemental beliefs remain. (ie. No Trinity, hellfire or human immortal soul.

No crucifixion… no holidays… no end of the world (HOW many times?)…

The end of this system is imminent and God’s Kingdom will soon solve everything) All backed up by the Bible.

If I recall correctly, I though God said that NO ONE, not even Jesus HIMSELF, would know the time of the end? I have a hard time putting any stock in a denomination that would so blatantly try to predict the end of the world (only to get it wrong SO many times). The Bible also warned us very clearly about that.

It simply seems that historically, the number of flawed personal interpretations and errors in JW history, taken as a total, pose an insurmountable problem.

 

[Regardless]

there are SO MANY critical, fundamental errors that were BASIC tenants of JW faith, and the faith has no history prior to the 1800s. First holidays were ok, and now they’re not, because they derive from pagan traditions, and so must be avoided.
By the way… Doesn’t current JW belief hold that Jesus was not crucified, but died on a “torture stake”? As you can see by the use of the cross in the imagery of the Christmas cards above, this belief certainly didn’t hold true before 1916. If your entire belief is in flux, how can you possibly know what is right?

Awesome! Look at what you have found! There are all the early Bible students happily celebrating Christmas. (A festival with roots more in pagan worship than in Christianity as we all seem to agree these days)
I was thinking about what you said about Christmas today. You mentioned it earlier.
I thought of an illustration:
Suppose every day driving to work you do a particular speed. One day you learn the speed limit on a particular stretch of road is lower than you thought. You have (in ignorance) been breaking the law.
Would you: A) Change your driving habit from now on since you have learned it is wrong.
Or - B) carry on breaking the law each day?
The answer, I think is obvious.

So the Bible students (following the traditions of most of Christendom) celebrated Christmas. Then they realise Christmas is a pagan festival, mixed up with ancient Roman sun god worship and stuff. So they stop celebrating it about 1916.
You guys know it has pagan origins too! Why have only the JW’s stopped?

There are lots of things the early JW’s have changed over the years.
Russel wasn’t a prophet. He and his companions didn’t get some amazing revelation and suddenly know everything. (Russel had some bizarre idea the pyramids were significant in the early days! I’ve seen his sketches in a book!)
Though they did start to realise certain things were wrong. (Russel had been taught that people were pre-destined by God to be wicked and then go to hell to be tortured forever!) He and others slowly learned more and more truths from God’s word. A bit like 1 cor 13:12 I guess. Slowly things got clearer as more pieces of the puzzle fitted in.
Of course they had to change.
You can’t become who you need to be by remaining who you are.

What would you have had them do? Say: “Well, we’ve all grown up believing humans have an immortal soul, we now see the Bible teaches something else. But it would be kinda embarrassing to change what we teach now! Let’s ignore the proof and carry on believing it.” Where’s the logic in that?

Suppose we were all a bunch of drop outs with messed up lives. Then one day you decided to clean up your life and chuck in the bad habits.
And I call after you: “Hey! You used to say having no job and being on drugs was great! Why are you changing? Come back!” I trust you’d ignore me.

Yet the JW’s change teachings when they realise they are wrong and you ridicule them for it.

Why do you think they changed from what were core beliefs of most Christian religions? Was it just on a whim? Just to be different? Or did they have reason for doing so? Whatever it was, millions who have studied the Bible with them from all religions (and atheists too) have ended up saying: “No way! This is the truth! I’ve got to go and tell people about this!”

How bizarre.

 

[adstrinity]

I guess you can’t have peasants reading Eccl 9:5,10 (The dead are unconscious and don’t know anything) Or Romans 6:7,23 (Wages of sin are death and dead are freed of their sin) They won’t be in fear of hell and then where will we be!

Probably IN Hell, then.

 

[ricko]

What is the purpose of any religion? Is it not to teach the Word of God, the truth?

How can a church possibly teach the truth if they themselves don’t know what the truth is? Admitting that you have made some major blunders does not excuse you to continue to do the same. At what point can you say to the people, “We finally have the truth and there will be no more changes”? You can’t because the JW is not the church that Jesus established 2,000 years ago with the Holy Spirit guidance guaranteed. Sorry but a man-made religion does not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Besides, the JWs only admit they have made an error in teaching when others outside of their faith point it out for years and years. When the JWs do change, they do not change to the truth, they just start teaching another error, only different.

Best to leave the teaching and salvation of souls to the professionals, the original Church established by Jesus Himself, the Catholic Church.

 

[Regardless]

That passage could just as easily refer to the Catholic Church.
If I recall correctly, I though God said that NO ONE, not even Jesus HIMSELF, would know the time of the end? I have a hard time putting any stock in a denomination that would so blatantly try to predict the end of the world (only to get it wrong SO many times). The Bible also warned us very clearly about that.
It simply seems that historically, the number of flawed personal interpretations and errors in JW history, taken as a total, pose an insurmountable problem.

Hey Rolltide my good historian, would you help me out please.
On this whole 1975 thing…

You quoted an old Watchtower before on Christmas.
Can you give me the reference to where I can find what the JW’s actually said on 1975 being the end of the system? (Incase it is in your collection)

Thanks muchly in advance.

Regardless.

 

[Rolltide]

Hey Rolltide my good historian, would you help me out please.
On this whole 1975 thing…

You quoted an old Watchtower before on Christmas.
Can you give me the reference to where I can find what the JW’s actually said on 1975 being the end of the system? (Incase it is in your collection)

Thanks muchly in advance.

Regardless.

Yes, I can do that, but I’ll have to find where I put the information. Also, I’m moving to a new house tomorrow, so until I get my internet service transferred, I won’t be able to post. If I’m lucky, I’ll have something for you today. If not, I’ll try for Monday.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=Regardless;5415974]
I will have to use another example of changes:
“Anyone translating the Bible into a language ordinary people can read are heretics! It must stay in Latin.” What have you got for me on that one?
I guess you can’t have peasants reading Eccl 9:5,10 (The dead are unconscious and don’t know anything) Or Romans 6:7,23 (Wages of sin are death and dead are freed of their sin) They won’t be in fear of hell and then where will we be!

Please state your source for that first statement as the only thing I can find is the Church forbidding reading of unauthorized versions. As that must people were unable to read at all and those that could read most could read Latin in addiction to their
native tongue it was not really that big of an issue. but was made one to promote the Protestant rebellion. Also you need to read those verses in light of what Christ says about the dead, the Father is God of the living not the dead so those that have fallen passed from this life are still alive if they are with the Lord. if not they are “dead” in hell in other words. I Eccl we see that this is talking of Sheol not hell and is the holding place on the Dead. remember that God had not fully reveled all of the life after this world. At the Death of Jesus, Christ opened the gates of heaven and the souls released those there to enter into heaven of perish so to speak into hell. As for the verses from Romans read the vesres before and after the ones you stated to get the complete picture.

You refer of course to the New World Translation of the Bible. (Which the JW’s print and prefer if it’s available in their language) That didn’t show up until the 1960’s, and then only in English. (I think the Russian addition only came out a few years back.) The teachings I referred to were identified as not biblical decades before the NWT existed.
And you probably know the Witnesses will use whatever translation you prefer in their Bible education work. (I preferred the ‘Good news Bible’ until I realised it had left bits out.)

But on the NWT; I was suspicious of the whole “Translate your own Bible” thing.
So I started studying it, and discovered it is a very accurate translation! In contrast many other translations are quite bias with their translation! I.e. Translating Sheol differently (Hell or grave) depending on the context! (“We can’t have good people going to hell, we’d better put grave this time”)
And John 1:1 clinched it. Why is the NWT the only one that acknowledges a different phrase was used in Greek? All other in English read as if the same word was applied to Jesus and Jehovah. Fascinating stuff when you get into it.

Anyway, I just wanted to answer the questions our good mate the proffesional historian raised. It sounded like he was assuming there were no answers to them. Have a good one

You really need to study a little more and the Very name Jehovah is a mistranslation. and was never used in the Greek New Testament Writings. But was inserted by the JW’s next in the Greek John 1;1 would directly translate as " in beginning was word and word was with God and God was word" now this does not read well in English. so word such as a and **The ** were added to make it easier for the English tongue to read. Now you have to say to your self., would a good Jew say that there was another god? if not then you can not use a in that sentence.

I may

 

[Palma_Exsisto]

C.T Russel was a man, and a small part of the modern day christian congregation, the reason JW’S do not speak of him alot is that this man is not our focal point. The kingdom of Jehovah and his son is.

The reason JWs do not like to talk about him is he was a man of questionable morals and intentions.

Russell was proven to be a false prophet, both by his many unfulfilled prophecies and by his own lies in a court of law. And the guy tried to market ordinary seeds as ‘‘miracle wheat’’ for crying out loud. He was a shiester.

 

[excaliber]

Thanks to all for the advice. It will help the next time I encounter a pair of Witnesses at my door. I see them in the neighborhood every few weeks or so, but they rarely ever actually come to my door. The mormans, too. I have seen pairs of missionaries just up the block, but they don’t ever make it to my door. One thing I don’t want to do is just tell them to go away, and slam the door. I realize they thrive on this sort of rejection. I would rather engage in civil conversation. Small hopes of a conversion, but small seeds sometimes become trees!

Good posts here.
I have been down this road, and the Jehovahs witnesses are not of God. One of the few things I know for sure in life.
There is Gossip, probably more then most churches. There are congregations that are not loving.
There is a huge amount of pride!!
Jw’s have a lot of PRIDE…your a worldly person, they are “true” christians so they won’t even talk to you unless its about church.
After baptism it continuous, people with title’s feel they are better then those without them. Dose any of this sound Christ like to you?

This religion destroys lives like no other christian cult I know.
The term bern them out, then burn them up should be on every kingdomhall.

 

[Regardless]

I Eccl we see that this is talking of Sheol not hell and is the holding place on the Dead.

Ah, a scholar. (I like your “holding place of the dead” description.)
But here is a point I am trying to make. Sheol is hell. (according to most Bibles.)
When the Hebrew word sheol appears, sometimes it is rendered “hell” and sometimes “grave” in most English Bibles. The same word translated differently. (except in the NWT)
So your average Bible reader sees the word “Hell” here, and “Grave” there. (often quite different concepts in English.) He has no idea the same Hebrew word was originally used.
That could be misleading.

in the Greek John 1;1 would directly translate as " in beginning was word and word was with God and God was word"

Not quite.
‘in beginning was the word and the word was with the god, and god was the word. ‘ (Copied from Wikipedia)
Notice “the god” and “god” (“ton theon” and “theos” in greek)
Most English translations (Except NWT) translate both “God”. (with a capital G)

This time, the average Bible reader has no idea a *different *word was used in the original language. (some scholars have suggested “divine” or “godlike” as options for “theos” here)

Tradition and beliefs aside, surely we want to have the most accurate translation of God’s word for us to read.

 

[Regardless]

The reason JWs do not like to talk about him is he was a man of questionable morals and intentions.
Russell was proven to be a false prophet,

We don’t mind talking about him, he’s just not a big deal. He wasn’t a prophet.

Yet often critics of the JW’s go on and on about what he said. They will quote stuff he wrote 100 years ago as reasons not to consider what JW’s are showing them from their Bible.
They would love us to treat him like the Mormons do Joseph Smith.

It’s a bizarre situation:
People trying to convince us we believe Russel was a prophet,
so they can convince us he wasn’t a prophet! Ha ha.

 

[Regardless]

At what point can you say to the people, “We finally have the truth and there will be no more changes”? You can’t because the JW is not the church that Jesus established 2,000 years ago with the Holy Spirit guidance guaranteed. .

With all this talk on Sheol and hell…
Does the Catholic Church still teach hell is a literal place of horrible torture and fire?
(like in Dante’s inferno and the painting in the sistine chapel)
or have they changed it to being more of a “state where you are cut off from God” ?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=Regardless;5448205]Ah, a scholar. (I like your “holding place of the dead” description.)
But here is a point I am trying to make. Sheol is hell. (according to most Bibles.)
When the Hebrew word sheol appears, sometimes it is rendered “hell” and sometimes “grave” in most English Bibles. The same word translated differently. (except in the NWT)
So your average Bible reader sees the word “Hell” here, and “Grave” there. (often quite different concepts in English.) He has no idea the same Hebrew word was originally used.
That could be misleading.

Were as in translation Sheol may be translated at time as hell this is not entirely correct as we know that those that are in Hell do not get out yet those in Sheol did.

Not quite.
‘in beginning was the word and the word was with the god, and god was the word. ‘ (Copied from Wikipedia)
Notice “the god” and “god” (“ton theon” and “theos” in greek)
Most English translations (Except NWT) translate both “God”. (with a capital G)

This time, the average Bible reader has no idea a *different *word was used in the original language. (some scholars have suggested “divine” or “godlike” as options for “theos” here)

Tradition and beliefs aside, surely we want to have the most accurate translation of God’s word for us to read.

Go to another site other than Wiki. the same word for God is use in the Greek in that whole sentence. Also the word the is not in the Greek as there is no the in Greek. Also the qeo and qeon are the same word and depend on placement in sentence which is used they both translate as Theos (God)

 

[arcio]

Funny, because you miss the whole point that he is a false prophet, and Jesus warned against false prophets. But you Jehovah Witnesses are brainwashed, so I don’t expect you to take my words as the truth.

Are all Christians brainwashed?

What is your test in determining what supernatural beliefs are true and what supernatural beliefs are false.

I ask, only because, had you been born to a family of Jehovah Witnesses, the odds are highly favoured, that you would in fact be a Jehovah Witness and would believe that Catholics are brainswashed.

No?

 

[Regardless]

Are all Christians brainwashed?

What is your test in determining what supernatural beliefs are true and what supernatural beliefs are false.

I ask, only because, had you been born to a family of Jehovah Witnesses, the odds are highly favoured, that you would in fact be a Jehovah Witness and would believe that Catholics are brainswashed.

No?

Hey! You stumped everyone with your question! No one replied! (I like your Einstein quote by the way)

Maybe you hit the nail on the head. Are many religious people just whatever religion they were born into and never sincerely ask: “Is it really the truth? How do I know?”

I think the test would be:
Consider all the evidence with an open mind and see where it leads.

What do you think Arcio?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

With all this talk on Sheol and hell…
Does the Catholic Church still teach hell is a literal place of horrible torture and fire?
(like in Dante’s inferno and the painting in the sistine chapel)
or have they changed it to being more of a “state where you are cut off from God” ?

Both it is a literal place of horrible Torture and fire where you are cut off from God.

 

[arcio]

Hey! You stumped everyone with your question! No one

I think the test would be:
Consider all the evidence with an open mind and see where it leads.

What do you think Arcio?

Faith, that is what is needed in the abscence of evidence. Prove to me that Brahman is any less real than the God of Abraham.

You cannot.

Therefor, the Christian has faith that the God of Abraham is real and the Brahman is not real.

Likewise, the Hindu trusts in faith that Brahman is the real God and the God of Abraham is fiction.

I think it would be very healthy for the extrememly devout or for those who are covinced that they alone worship the one true God, if they would consider the odds of regarding which God they would worship, depending on where they were born in the world and who raised them.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Are all Christians brainwashed?

What is your test in determining what supernatural beliefs are true and what supernatural beliefs are false.

I ask, only because, had you been born to a family of Jehovah Witnesses, the odds are highly favoured, that you would in fact be a Jehovah Witness and would believe that Catholics are brainswashed.

No?

No, I could never accept the JW teaching as they are in conflict. I have asked question and can not get straight answers or the answer is double talk.

I asked if if all that have died or in death sleep until the final judgment and resurrection then how was Jesus able to talk to Moses and Eliasha as the transfiguration. the person could not answer but said she would get back to me.

She then about a week later came back and said that it was really not them that he was talking to but his memories of them.:doh2:

that make know since what so ever.

 

[excaliber]

We don’t mind talking about him, he’s just not a big deal. He wasn’t a prophet.

Yet often critics of the JW’s go on and on about what he said. They will quote stuff he wrote 100 years ago as reasons not to consider what JW’s are showing them from their Bible.
They would love us to treat him like the Mormons do Joseph Smith.

It’s a bizarre situation:
People trying to convince us we believe Russel was a prophet,
so they can convince us he wasn’t a prophet! Ha ha.

This is not something YOU should
laugh at. Russel went against
thousands of years of Christian teaching. Teaching from people more educated then him.

The only one who can go against
and change what Christians have
taught for so long IS A PROPHET.

If he did not get a revelation from
God. Then You are following a comparatively un educated man’s
ideas, that were changed over time because of errors.

Jehovahs witnesses are not pure bible students, they always have
some magazine or book or altered
bible. In these books or magazines
are what you are TOLD these scriptures mean, you want to believe them because it SOUNDS good to say there is no suffering after death. And that you can just
stay on earth with out experiencing heaven.

It sounds SO GOOD that Jehovahs witnesses are more then willing to
over look an endless stream of errors and changes to doctrine.

I thought the Generation of 1914 would not pass away before the end? It was taught as doctrine?

So your doctrine is eather from God or it is not, it can’t be sometimes when you don’t need to change it.

Secondly you are eather a student of the bible, or of watchtower
publications with its interpretation
of the bible. And anyone that knows anything about Jw’s is aware that you study watchtower
publications.

 

[ixolite]

But on the NWT; I was suspicious of the whole “Translate your own Bible” thing.
So I started studying it, and discovered it is a very accurate translation!

Oh, really?

Luke 23:43 (Jesus on the cross promissing the good thief paradise)

christian bible:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee*,** To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.*

JW bible:

And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”
(source for JW bible)

So they did not mistranslate this verse to fit the JW dogma? They did not mistranslate this verse, because they don’t believe in an (immortal) soul?

Besides the little fact, that the JW translation doesn’t even make sense. When else should he say that to him? Tomorrow? Yesterday?

More stuff here.

We don’t mind talking about him, he’s just not a big deal. He wasn’t a prophet.

So, he wasn’t predicting the future, like…erm…the time of the end of the world and stuff?

***prophet **
Noun

1. a person supposedly chosen by God to pass on His message
   2.** a person who predicts the future**
2. a spokesman for, or advocate of, some cause*

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Some videos regarding JW’s:
youtube.com/watch?v=ZlHbz5G4UTM
youtube.com/watch?v=S5ecI_eD2rY
youtube.com/watch?v=C7U4i8LnOow

User with videos on JW’s:
youtube.com/user/WTComments

Ex-JW’s site:
jehovahs-witness.net/