"I Will Convert To Islam"

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

wcknight:

I think you are playing with semantics, when the intent is not meant to be so.

And I can say you are doing the same thing.

If it meant something then it should say it. As it does not say it we are free to believe otherwise.

As I said in my reply to 1ke, there is no dogmatic statement saying that the God of Islam is the same God that we worship.

 

[aridite]

ByzCath:

The Catechism says no such thing.

You ignore the line, “these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,”.

The Catechism says that they may worship the same God, or they may not. It only says that they (Muslims) profess to hold the faith of Abraham, not that they do hold the faith of Abraham.

I am pretty sure that when the CCC says “these profess to hold the faith of Abraham”, it is equivalent to saying “they hold the faith of Abraham” which entails “they believe in the same God as Abraham believed in”. And so because the God of Abraham is the God of Jesus, therefore the God of the Koran is the God of Jesus (and the Bible). To find “wiggle room” in the CCC use of “profess” entails that the authors of the CCC meant “these ‘profess’ to (but do not really) hold the faith of Abraham.” To interpret the CCC as you propose would mean that the CCC is calling Muslims liars (by ‘professing’ what they do not really believe). I am sure the intent of the CCC was the exact opposite of calling Muslims liars.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

aridite:

I am pretty sure that when the CCC says “these profess to hold the faith of Abraham”, it is equivalent to saying “they hold the faith of Abraham” which entails “they believe in the same God as Abraham believed in”. And so because the God of Abraham is the God of Jesus, therefore the God of the Koran is the God of Jesus (and the Bible). To find “wiggle room” in the CCC use of “profess” entails that the authors of the CCC meant “these ‘profess’ to (but do not really) hold the faith of Abraham.” To interpret the CCC as you propose would mean that the CCC is calling Muslims liars (by ‘professing’ what they do not really believe). I am sure the intent of the CCC was the exact opposite of calling Muslims liars.

I do not see it as calling them liars.

I see it as saying what it says, that they believe that they are professing to hold the faith of Abraham.

The God of Islam is totally different than the God of Judaism is Christanity. This is what I have gotten from my study.

Until someone can show me a dogmatic statement from the Church that says we must believe that the God that Islam follows is the same God we follow, I am free to believe as I do just as you are free to believe as you do.

 

[aridite]

ByzCath:

I do not see it as calling them liars.

I see it as saying what it says, that they believe that they are professing to hold the faith of Abraham.

I don’t think there is a logical difference between a Muslim saying “I believe in the God Abraham worshiped” and “I believe I hold the faith of Abraham.”

ByzCath:

The God of Islam is totally different than the God of Judaism is Christanity. This is what I have gotten from my study.

I think we are confusing the sense of a term and its referent. The referent is the actual thing a term points to – it is objective. The sense is what the person using the term means by the term and what he/she understands about the thing pointed to. I think the the referent of the Triune God, Yahweh and Allah are all the same (I think Jesus supports me on the identification of the first two, and the Koran on the identification of the second two.) We are all agreed that Muslims have a limited understanding of God. So the referent for Allah is the same as for God, but the sense is different.

It seems very important for you to not identify Allah with God. Why is that? Doesn’t the sense/referent distinction do justice to the sameness/difference that CCC points to?

ByzCath:

Until someone can show me a dogmatic statement from the Church that says we must believe that the God that Islam follows is the same God we follow, I am free to believe as I do just as you are free to believe as you do.

I don’t suppose you would consider the CCC to be authoritative, huh?

 

[LSK]

RSiscoe:

Here’s something we can do. Actually the disgusting quote from the Catechism can actually be interpreted so that it is not wrong. Here is the quote again:

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

Beleive it or not, that can be interpreted to mean that ONLY Catholics with be saved, and that Muslims worhip a false God, and NOT the true God that Catholic worship.

Let’s see who can solve the riddle and show how the above misleading quote from the Catechsm is actually not incorrect (only deceptive).

If you cannot discuss this without attacking my Church you should not be on this forum at all. The quote is not ‘disgusting’ and you, my friend, have very poor manners.

And before you say to me "believe it or not’ you had better make yourself clear. What you quoted does NOT say Muslims worship a false God and does not say only Catholics will be saved. You, my friend, are in need of help. I suggest you get it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

aridite:

I don’t think there is a logical difference between a Muslim saying “I believe in the God Abraham worshiped” and “I believe I hold the faith of Abraham.”

There isn’t one that I can see, but the case I am making is that they could be wrong in either statement which I think they are.

I think we are confusing the sense of a term and its referent. The referent is the actual thing a term points to – it is objective. The sense is what the person using the term means by the term and what he/she understands about the thing pointed to. I think the the referent of the Triune God, Yahweh and Allah are all the same (I think Jesus supports me on the identification of the first two, and the Koran on the identification of the second two.) We are all agreed that Muslims have a limited understanding of God. So the referent for Allah is the same as for God, but the sense is different.

Huh?

It seems very important for you to not identify Allah with God. Why is that? Doesn’t the sense/referent distinction do justice to the sameness/difference that CCC points to?

Hmm, think your off here. Allah is the arabic word that translates as God. Allah is not a name. The Church I attend, the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, actually uses the word Allah as, again, Allah is just the arabic word for God.

I just do not believe that the God we worship is the same God of the Qur’an and Islam.

Just as with every other group that claims to worship one God is not the same God as we worship.

I don’t suppose you would consider the CCC to be authoritative, huh?

I never said this. I just do not see that the Catechism is making the statement that you seem to think it is making.

If it was then it would have left out the “these profess”.

I think I have made it clear were I stand on this issue. There is no way for any of you to spin this in a way that I will change my view so I think I am done replying to this topic.

 

[RSiscoe]

ByzCath:

I’ll take a stab at this as this is something I have been thinking about.

It comes down to this part of the statement, “these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,”. I have underlined the key word.

If they “profess to hold the faith of Abraham” that does not necessarily mean that they truly hold the faith of Abraham, which we know they do not, they only think they do.

So RSiscoe, how did I do?

Byz,

I only have a minute to respond: You got part of it correct. The quote does not say the Muslims hold the faith of Abraham, but merely that they “profess” to hold the faith of Abraham. I might profess to be the President, but that just means I am in error, it doesn’t mean I am actually the President.

But, there are two other parts of the quote that need to be explained. After all, if only Catholics are saved (and I will provide the infallible dogma of the faith to back that up later), how are the Muslims included in the plan of salvation?

After all, the Church teaches infallibly that ALL Muslims, not just a few or most, but ALL Mulsims - every single last one - will go to hell when they die. God Himself revelaed that to us through the Church. So how do we make sense of what the Catechism says about them being included in the plan of salvation?

And also, if the Muslims worship a false God (and they do), how shoud we interpret the part saying that they, along with us worship one merciful God?

Hint: You have to look at what is not said, not just what IS said.

 

[1ke]

ByzCath:

Now these do not state that salvation is found only in the Catholic Church, but I do not think we are prohibited from believing such a thing. I don’t necessairly believe that. The only thing we can say is that we do not know if salvation can be found outside of the Church, only God knows.

Actually, please see CCC 846-847 which is on point here and states:

“those who, thorugh no fault of their own, do know know the Gospel of Christ or his Church… those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

So, no the Church does not leave the matter open to believing only Catholics can be saved.

 

[USCatholic]

A quick reply:

Read the beginning of the message. I wrote “I’ll put myself in the shoes of…”

And the end of the message about conversion, it wasn’t me talking, but the average Catholic Joe, the guy who doesn’t know anything about Catholicism except going to mass on Christmas, on Easter, and maybe few times on regular sundays, without asking questions, or knowing almost nothing else other than the very basics of Catholicism, like millions of his fellow Catholics here in America and around the world, who don’t read about their faith, don’t go on message boards like you guys, or even ask.

If that average Joe reads that paragraph about Islam in the Catechism, surely, he will react the way I wrote. He will start asking the same questions I put on his mouth.

After all, for him “what’s good for the Pope is good enough for me.”

I have more comments on your replies. That will be for later.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Can Outsiders be Insiders?
catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4085

It Didn’t Go Out with Vatican II
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207fea3.asp

 

[wcknight]

RSiscoe:

Byz,​

But, there are two other parts of the quote that need to be explained. After all, if only Catholics are saved (and I will provide the infallible dogma of the faith to back that up later), how are the Muslims included in the plan of salvation?

After all, the Church teaches infallibly that ALL Muslims, not just a few or most, but ALL Mulsims - every single last one - will go to hell when they die. God Himself revelaed that to us through the Church. So how do we make sense of what the Catechism says about them being included in the plan of salvation?

And also, if the Muslims worship a false God (and they do), how shoud we interpret the part saying that they, along with us worship one merciful God?

Hint: You have to look at what is not said, not just what IS said.

Are you saying the Pope John Paul II believes and preaches heresy ? Because he came out said the opposite of what you are advocating.

IF you lead an upright life and follow God as best you know how, even though you are not Christian, you will share in the kingdom of God.

wc

 

[Ghosty]

I want to point out that the term “plan of salvation” does NOT mean salvation. God’s plan of salvation included Judas, and includes all sinners. A plan is just that: a plan. Other monotheists are in a special position because it’s theoretically easier for them to jump on board with the plan, but that doesn’t mean they will.

You’re reading way too much into the statements in the Catechism.

 

[JGC]

RSiscoe:

Byz,

I

But, there are two other parts of the quote that need to be explained. After all, if only Catholics are saved (and I will provide the infallible dogma of the faith to back that up later), how are the Muslims included in the plan of salvation?

After all, the Church teaches infallibly that ALL Muslims, not just a few or most, but ALL Mulsims - every single last one - will go to hell when they die. God Himself revelaed that to us through the Church. So how do we make sense of what the Catechism says about them being included in the plan of salvation?
.

Like a broken record you will once again think you will prove only card carrying Catholics will be saved. Once again I and others will have to post actual Church teaching to ensure visitors to this site are not misinformed by you.
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

1ke:

ByzCath:

Now these do not state that salvation is found only in the Catholic Church, but I do not think we are prohibited from believing such a thing. I don’t necessairly believe that. The only thing we can say is that we do not know if salvation can be found outside of the Church, only God knows.

Actually, please see CCC 846-847 which is on point here and states:

“those who, thorugh no fault of their own, do know know the Gospel of Christ or his Church… those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

So, no the Church does not leave the matter open to believing only Catholics can be saved.

Please go back and reread the underlined protion of my reply that is quoted above.

I would add, that “those who, throug no fault of their own” is a limited sized group. Those who convert to Islam from Christianity would not fit into that group.

We can not say that there is salvation outside of the Church, all we can do is leave it in God’s hands.

 

[USCatholic]

ByzCath:

Allah is the arabic word that translates as God. Allah is not a name. The Church I attend, the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, actually uses the word Allah as, again, Allah is just the arabic word for God.

I just do not believe that the God we worship is the same God of the Qur’an and Islam.

I agree with you. Here is another explanation I wrote for those who don’t know, in my other thread:

In the arabic speaking countries, the arab Christians, or preferably, the Christians who speak Arabic, use the word “Allah” to designate the Judeo-Christian God.

So, for the Christians who speak Arabic, Allah is the TRINITY, they borrowed just the name, but for the Muslims, Allah is ONE, and was the"greatest" stone idol in Mecca at that time, namely “Allah” who had 2 daughters, “Allati”, and “Uzza”, but Muhammad, to associate his new invented faith with the Jews and Christians, abolished the 2 daughters of the stone idol, Allah.

Again, the god of Islam is completely, totally different from the Judeo-Christian God.

The Christians who speak Arabic, when they talk about “Allah”, they mean THE TRINITY, not the god of Islam.

It is the same name, not the same content, not the same essence, not the same nature, not the same God.

Same name with totally different meanings.

Clear?

 

[Marianne_M]

ByzCath:

We can not say that there is salvation outside of the Church, all we can do is leave it in God’s hands.

“On both counts, however, whoever is saved owes his salvation to the one Catholic Church founded by Christ. It is to this Church alone that Christ entrusted the truths of revelation which have by now, though often dimly, penetrated all the cultures of mankind. It is this Church alone that communicates the merits won for the whole world on the cross.” (On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church, Fr. John A. Hardon)

 

[RSiscoe]

Ghosty:

I want to point out that the term “plan of salvation” does NOT mean salvation. God’s plan of salvation included Judas, and includes all sinners. A plan is just that: a plan. Other monotheists are in a special position because it’s theoretically easier for them to jump on board with the plan, but that doesn’t mean they will.

You’re reading way too much into the statements in the Catechism.

Exactly. Everyone is included in the plan of salvation since “God wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”. Since it is the antidecedent will of God for all men to be saved, all are included in the “plan of salvation” - even Satainst.

But, this does not mean that all those who God “wills… to be saved” - tht is, all who are included in the “plan of salvation” - will actually be saved. Only Catholics will be saved (I will explain that last sentence in the next post).

 

[pacersFan]

thessalonian:

I just started reading in Ratzinger’s “On Truth and Tolerance” last night. I think it will shed much light on this subject as it already has. He in that book says there are two ways of looking at other religions. We can view what is false in them and so they are evil. We can also look at what is true in them and view them as a preperation for accepting Christ. He brings up two examples. The one is cornelius and the other is the Greeks in Athens in Acts 17.

Cornelius was not a Christian, but he did believe in one God. I am sure he had no concept of the trinity, likely being influenced by Judaism. Now BEFORE Peter preaches to him he is called a “righteous and God fearing man”. I am sure he held some errors. Yet God still heard his prayer and called him righteous and God fearing.

In Acts 17 in the Aereopogus Paul looks for something in the belief of the Athenians that he can use to relate to them the one true God. He finds this altar to an unknown God and uses this to explain the one true God to them. He does not go about looking for where they are in error but finds some truth in what they believe for they have no statue for this God and he points out to them that the true God is not made of human hands.

In one sense the God of Islam and the concept of the Moslems of God is true, i.e. there is one God. They have a concept that the Jews basically had before Christ and still do. That concept is not false but does not contain the fullness of the truth. Are they guilty of what in their concept is lacking. Only God can judge whether it is in ignorance that they do not fully know him.

Interesting stuff.

By the way I do not recommend that any Catholic become Moslem. We are held to a higher standard based on the higher favors God has given us. “To the one who knew he will be treated as an unbeliever, but to the one who DID NOT KNOW he will recieve but few lashes.”

Blessings

Very nice! I’m going to have to check out that book. I love that our pope is such a great theologian.

 

[RSiscoe]

JGC:

Like a broken record you will once again think you will prove only card carrying Catholics will be saved. Once again I and others will have to post actual Church teaching to ensure visitors to this site are not misinformed by you.
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

I have never said that, and do not believe that.
Ike:

The Church does not teach that ONLY Catholics will be saved, therefore the Catechism cannot be interpreted that way-- except by very confused individuals such as yourself".

The Catholic Church does not teach that only Catholics will be saved? Who told you that. The following is a doctrine that all Catholics must believe:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that e of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety, and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.

So, according to this dogma of the Church ONLY Catholics will be saved. It is a serious error to believe otherwise.

Now, does the above quote mean that you have to be a “card carrying” Catholic to be saved? No. What is means is that you must be a Catholic. It is possible for a person to be a Catholic, yet not appear so outwardly. For example, it is theoretically possible for a “Protestant” to be united to the Catholic Church, as long as he has been baptized and not rejected any truth. There are probably some “Protestants” (that is, those who attend a Protestant Church) who believe what is necessary for salvation, and do not reject any Catholic truth. Such a person, although it appears he is a Protestant, is actually a Catholic. If they are saved, they are saved by being united to the Catholic Church, in spite of the fact that they attended a heretical sect.

With a “Muslim” it is a little different. The Church does allow for the possibility that a person who has grown up Muslim can attain salvation without actually being fully brought into the Church. The Church teaches that if such a person interiorly desired to be a Catholic, and intended to convert and be baptized whey they were able, such a person could possibly become united to the Catholic Church through thier "desire. If such a person died, it is possibly that they could attain salvation since they had become united to the Church through their desire and intent to be fully received into the Church. If such a person was saved, it would be by thier union with the Church, in spite of the fact that it may appear on the surface that they are Muslim.

Therefore, the above dogma that God revealed to us through the Church holds true: Only Catholics will be saved. But it may be that some people were Catholics only through desire and were not actual card carrying Catholics.

But, to say that NOT only Catholic will be saved is certainly an error, since that is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches.

For a list of almost endless quotes from Popes, saints, and councils that confirm ONLY Catholics will be saved, click on the following link:

64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:qHrFmLAKud4J:www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm+EENS+will+descend+into+the+fires+of+hell+prepared+for+the+devil+and+his+angels&hl=en

 

[Sarah_Jane]

“It is known to Us and to you that those who labor in invincible ignorance concerning our most holy religion and who, assiduously observing the natural law and its precepts which God has inscribed in the hearts of all, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life can, through the working of the divine light and grace, attain eternal life.” (Pius IX, Singulari Quadam)