1
1ke
Guest
RSiscoe-- You are in serious error and I refer you to CCC 846 and to Dominus Jesus.
- Status
R
RSiscoe
Guest
Am I in error for believing that infallible quote that I provided.
The reference you gave from the Catechism actually does not disagree with what I believe. It looks like it does, but when you read it very closely it does not.
So, the question comes down to this: When I read the section of the new Catechism that you provided, it fits in perfectly with the infallible teaching of the Church. Why is it that when you read that section it does not?
Someone is obviously misinterpreting the Catechism: It is either I, who interpret it so that it fits in with what the Church has infallibly declared, or it is your interpretation that does not fit in what what the Church has infallibly declared.
I will end this with the infallibly pronouncement of the Church. Read this and tell me if this fits in with what you believe.
Council of Florence (infallibly):
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that e of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety, and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.
Does that contradict your interpretation of the Catechism? If it does you are misinterpreting the Catechism. It is very understandable that you would misinterpret it, since it “seems” contradict what the Church has always, taught. BUT, if you read it very carefully (and if you really know the faith), it actually does not contradict the above quote.
U
USCatholic
Guest
Guys, please let’s discuss the quote from the Catechism in the context of the Scriptures and the Quran:
**841 - “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” **
**1 - Plan of Salvation: **
Under paragraph # 816 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we read,
“The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”
As stated, not only is salvation found in the Catholic Church, but also the “fullness of the means” of salvation.
But what is Salvation?
Romans 10:9-13:
2 - The attitude of Islam towards Jesus and the quote from the Catechism:
Islam says that it serves the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But in so doing it is stating that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were Muslims! Furthermore, Islam denies that God is a Trinity.
**“They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them,” (Quran 5:73, Yusufali). **
The Muslims deny the deity of Jesus Christ. They believe that He was just a good man and teacher. They do not believe that He is the Messiah.
**“They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah’s is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things,” (Quran 5:17, Pickthal). **
**“And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!” (Quran 5:30, Pickthal) **
They also deny the Crucifixion and Resurection of Our Lord, Jesus-Christ:
The Quran says:
*Quran, Surah 4.157: “That they (the Christians) said, “We slew the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah,” yet they did not slay him neither crucified him, only a likeness of that which was shown to them.” *
Quite simply, the Muslims deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam.
Therefore this paragraph in the Catechism of the Catholic Church cannot be correct :
"The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (CCC 841).
**841 - “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” **
**1 - Plan of Salvation: **
Under paragraph # 816 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we read,
“The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”
As stated, not only is salvation found in the Catholic Church, but also the “fullness of the means” of salvation.
But what is Salvation?
Romans 10:9-13:
- "For, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”.*
2 - The attitude of Islam towards Jesus and the quote from the Catechism:
Islam says that it serves the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But in so doing it is stating that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were Muslims! Furthermore, Islam denies that God is a Trinity.
**“They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them,” (Quran 5:73, Yusufali). **
The Muslims deny the deity of Jesus Christ. They believe that He was just a good man and teacher. They do not believe that He is the Messiah.
**“They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah’s is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things,” (Quran 5:17, Pickthal). **
**“And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!” (Quran 5:30, Pickthal) **
Code:
Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ.The Quran says:
*Quran, Surah 4.157: “That they (the Christians) said, “We slew the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah,” yet they did not slay him neither crucified him, only a likeness of that which was shown to them.” *
Quite simply, the Muslims deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam.
Therefore this paragraph in the Catechism of the Catholic Church cannot be correct :
"The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (CCC 841).
R
RSiscoe
Guest
"The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (CCC 841).
When reading a modernist document, you have to read it very carefully to see what it actually says, and what it does not say.
And if you read the above quote carefully, it does not say that the Muslims worship the same God as we do. What it says is that they worship a god that is “one” and “merciful”.
In other words, Catholics worship the one true God, who is one and merciful. The Muslims, on the other hand, worship a false God, yet they consider him to have the attributes of being one and merciful. Therefore, Catholics and Muslims together worship one merciful God, but not the same God.
See how deceptive that is?
It is like the often quoted phrase: “We reject nothing that is true of other religions”. But what does that really say? What it should say is “we reject nothing that is true in other religions, yet we reject those religions entirely becuase they are false”.
Without adding the last part it really does not teach us anything. Of course we don’t reject what is true; we reject what is false. And since other “religions” contain false teachings, we reject them intirely, knowing that any truth contained in them actually makes them more likely to deceive people, since people are attracted by the truth.
When reading a modernist document, you have to read it very carefully to see what it actually says, and what it does not say.
And if you read the above quote carefully, it does not say that the Muslims worship the same God as we do. What it says is that they worship a god that is “one” and “merciful”.
In other words, Catholics worship the one true God, who is one and merciful. The Muslims, on the other hand, worship a false God, yet they consider him to have the attributes of being one and merciful. Therefore, Catholics and Muslims together worship one merciful God, but not the same God.
See how deceptive that is?
It is like the often quoted phrase: “We reject nothing that is true of other religions”. But what does that really say? What it should say is “we reject nothing that is true in other religions, yet we reject those religions entirely becuase they are false”.
Without adding the last part it really does not teach us anything. Of course we don’t reject what is true; we reject what is false. And since other “religions” contain false teachings, we reject them intirely, knowing that any truth contained in them actually makes them more likely to deceive people, since people are attracted by the truth.
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
I think you’re all jumping to conclusions about what god the muslims are worshipping. No one would say that protestants are worshipping a false god just because they hold to sola scriptura or sola fide. We simply acknowledge that they do not hold to the fullness of truth that is revealed through Christ’s One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The CCC seems to acknowledge this is also true of Muslims, except that their religion also fails to acknowledge the Triune nature of the one true God. The Jews also do not recognize the Triune nature of God but most of us would not accuse them of worshipping a false god. Instead we would ask them to understand the fullness of truth. Why are we so quick to accuse the Muslims of worshipping a false God when even Jews and Muslims acknowledge the same Abrahamic link?
So, in the quote from the CCC, it appears that the Church is simply acknowledging that part of the truth that Islam does recognize - i.e. the existence of the One God of Israel who later revealed his Triune nature through His Son Jesus Christ. The Church’s acknowledgement of this limited consistency of belief between Islam and Christianity is not a ringing endorsement of every tenent of Islam, nor is a turnig towards indifferentism. It seems to be nothing more than a recognition that - for all its other flaws - at least Christians and Muslims look to the same God even though we have very different understandings about His nature and his plan for us.
It causes me pain to see so many people on this forum spew such venom about Islam. Remember that, for the most part, its followers are peaceful people despite the fact that, like any religion, its writings can be used to fan the flames of hatred and intolerance.
We, as Christians, are called to love like Christ. So, disagree with the teachings of Islam all you want, and offer the truth of Christ’s Church in charity. We should do as the Church teaches and start from the common ground of shared belief in the same God - to build bridges of understanding and respect. This is NOT political correctness, but an acknowledgement of real truth.
Peace to all.
Peace,
So, in the quote from the CCC, it appears that the Church is simply acknowledging that part of the truth that Islam does recognize - i.e. the existence of the One God of Israel who later revealed his Triune nature through His Son Jesus Christ. The Church’s acknowledgement of this limited consistency of belief between Islam and Christianity is not a ringing endorsement of every tenent of Islam, nor is a turnig towards indifferentism. It seems to be nothing more than a recognition that - for all its other flaws - at least Christians and Muslims look to the same God even though we have very different understandings about His nature and his plan for us.
It causes me pain to see so many people on this forum spew such venom about Islam. Remember that, for the most part, its followers are peaceful people despite the fact that, like any religion, its writings can be used to fan the flames of hatred and intolerance.
We, as Christians, are called to love like Christ. So, disagree with the teachings of Islam all you want, and offer the truth of Christ’s Church in charity. We should do as the Church teaches and start from the common ground of shared belief in the same God - to build bridges of understanding and respect. This is NOT political correctness, but an acknowledgement of real truth.
Peace to all.
Peace,
R
RSiscoe
Guest
Ropbert in SD:
Would you have a problem if people showed hatred for abotion? Probably not. Well, the Mulsim religion which kills the souls is FAR WORSE than an abortion which merely kills the body. So we must detest Islam much more than we detest abortion or mass murder.
That does not mean we detest the Muslims. Of course we should treat them as kindly as possible and desire their conversion. But to detest the horrible religion which cause of their souls for all eternity is the proper response.
Islam is a religion that is leading millions and millions of souls to hell. It is a mortal sin against the first commandment and therefore we must detest this false religion for what it is.
Would you have a problem if people showed hatred for abotion? Probably not. Well, the Mulsim religion which kills the souls is FAR WORSE than an abortion which merely kills the body. So we must detest Islam much more than we detest abortion or mass murder.
That does not mean we detest the Muslims. Of course we should treat them as kindly as possible and desire their conversion. But to detest the horrible religion which cause of their souls for all eternity is the proper response.
J
javelin
Guest
I think this has been said, but here goes again…
There is ONLY one God. Period.
When Muslins worship Allah, they are worshipping God. Even though they see only the one person of the trinity, that one person is still completely, wholly, and undeniably God.
Key point: Their lack of understanding of the true nature of God does not change who the God they worship is. God is still God, and there is only one God.
Historically, the roots of Islam trace back to Abraham; hence it is understandable to say that the God of Abraham is the God of Islam.
And it is positively correct that the “plan of salvation” mentioned in the CCC certainly does NOT mean that all Muslims will be saved. Rather it points to the fact that their faith is descended from the father of our faith, Abraham, and so God had a special plan for them in salvation history. Too bad they rejected it and fell to the heresies of their false prophet. They are really not all that different from the Jews, who also reject the triune God.
Yet the mystery of the Trinity also tells us that when they adore the one God, they are adoring the fullness of Him, not diminished in any way, just as when we worship Jesus we are worshipping God in His fullness.
So let’s not take this one-liner and make a mountain out of it. Ultimately they are our separated brethren, which is why the dear Pope is showing them God’s love and reaching out in an attempt to bring them home.
Peace,
javelin
There is ONLY one God. Period.
When Muslins worship Allah, they are worshipping God. Even though they see only the one person of the trinity, that one person is still completely, wholly, and undeniably God.
Key point: Their lack of understanding of the true nature of God does not change who the God they worship is. God is still God, and there is only one God.
Historically, the roots of Islam trace back to Abraham; hence it is understandable to say that the God of Abraham is the God of Islam.
And it is positively correct that the “plan of salvation” mentioned in the CCC certainly does NOT mean that all Muslims will be saved. Rather it points to the fact that their faith is descended from the father of our faith, Abraham, and so God had a special plan for them in salvation history. Too bad they rejected it and fell to the heresies of their false prophet. They are really not all that different from the Jews, who also reject the triune God.
Yet the mystery of the Trinity also tells us that when they adore the one God, they are adoring the fullness of Him, not diminished in any way, just as when we worship Jesus we are worshipping God in His fullness.
So let’s not take this one-liner and make a mountain out of it. Ultimately they are our separated brethren, which is why the dear Pope is showing them God’s love and reaching out in an attempt to bring them home.
Peace,
javelin
J
JGC
Guest
My goodness!
I never thought you would have endorsed Catholic teaching given your previous posts on EENS as a ‘rigourist’ EENS’ist
Glad to see you’ve come round.
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
Dear US Catholic:
You said…
Because Muslims deny the divinity of Christ, they do not worship Christ. That is true. But it does not follow that they must therefore be worshipping a god other that God the Father - which the Catholic Church recognizes as the first Person of the Trinity.
If your conclusion is correct, then the Jews must have all converted to some false religion when they rejected the New Testament, and are now worshipping a God other than the God recognized by the Church.
Do you honestly believe that the Jews are worshipping a false God? Or is it reasonable to believe that they pray to the same God that we recognize as the first Person of the Trinity?
And if you agree to the latter, then why cannot the Muslims - who profess a link to Abraham - also be worshipping that same God that we recognize as the first person of the Trinity.
Set aside all of the other problems with Islam. That’s another issue entirely. The question is really one of what amount of Truth exists in Islam. Some truth does exist in Islam, to the extent they pray to the same God as the Jews and the Christians, notwithstanding our Catholic belief that they do not have the fullness of truth revealed through Christ, concerning God’s nature.
Peace.
You said…
Your conclusion does not logically follow from your assumptions.
Because Muslims deny the divinity of Christ, they do not worship Christ. That is true. But it does not follow that they must therefore be worshipping a god other that God the Father - which the Catholic Church recognizes as the first Person of the Trinity.
If your conclusion is correct, then the Jews must have all converted to some false religion when they rejected the New Testament, and are now worshipping a God other than the God recognized by the Church.
Do you honestly believe that the Jews are worshipping a false God? Or is it reasonable to believe that they pray to the same God that we recognize as the first Person of the Trinity?
And if you agree to the latter, then why cannot the Muslims - who profess a link to Abraham - also be worshipping that same God that we recognize as the first person of the Trinity.
Set aside all of the other problems with Islam. That’s another issue entirely. The question is really one of what amount of Truth exists in Islam. Some truth does exist in Islam, to the extent they pray to the same God as the Jews and the Christians, notwithstanding our Catholic belief that they do not have the fullness of truth revealed through Christ, concerning God’s nature.
Peace.
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that e of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety, and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.
So, according to this dogma of the Church ONLY Catholics will be saved. It is a serious error to believe otherwise.
Dear RSiscoe;
Your understanding of this statement is incorrect. But don’t take my word for it. Read what the CCC says about it:
So, according to this dogma of the Church ONLY Catholics will be saved. It is a serious error to believe otherwise.
Dear RSiscoe;
Your understanding of this statement is incorrect. But don’t take my word for it. Read what the CCC says about it:
Your understanding is not consistent with the teachings of the Church.
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
I agree that Islam is not the True religion, and that it is misleading many people. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether Muslims are worshipping a false god, as opposed to spreading heresy concerning the One True God. I believe the latter is correct and the former is incorrect. You have not proven the contrary.
Abortion is not a good analogy. Abortion is not a religion, but an act that is either moral or immoral. I believe abortion is immoral. Muslims believe abortion is immoral. That neither proves nor disproves the original premise - that Muslims worship a false God.
I am not suggesting that we have to love Islam. I concur that we must love all people regardless of their faith. I also concur that we must evangelize the Muslims. I simply disagree with your premise that they worship a false god. They worship the same God we do, even if they do not fully comprehend His triune nature. To suggest that Muslims worship a false god is to take a position that will stifle dialogue and destroy any real hope for evangelization.
Peace.
D
Donna_P
Guest
Steve Andersen:
You are so funny!!
God Bless!
Donna
no pork
no alcohol,
a dress code, clockwork prayer, and foot washing 5 times a day?
I’d think about this conversion thing a little more if I were you
You are so funny!!
God Bless!
Donna
R
Roman_Army
Guest
USCatholic said:
Sir,
You are clearly misunderstanding the Catechism. Those passages were only intended to cradle muslims who do not know the truth of the Church and are faithful and good. The Catechism is intended for teachers and priests of the faith. Those passages are in there to promote tolerance and ecumenism, not to promote conversion to Islam, Islam is still a false religion but contains certain truths. The Catholic Church is the most ecumenical religious body in the world. You’re in my prayers.
May God bless you.
1
1ke
Guest
RSiscoe said:
You are misquoting your own quote. The CCC 841 says: TOGETHER WITH US THEY ADORE THE ONE, MERCIFUL GOD
… not A God, THE God-- since there’s only one then it must be the SAME God.
Clearly a person who calls the CCC a “modernist documenet” is not playing with a full deck. Please come out of your Catholic Fundamentalism.
1
1ke
Guest
RSiscoe–
You never did answer my question, posed to you on the other thread regarding Islam/salvation outside the church.
Do the Jews worship the same God as we do?
You never did answer my question, posed to you on the other thread regarding Islam/salvation outside the church.
Do the Jews worship the same God as we do?
R
RSiscoe
Guest
I didn’t just “come round”. I have always understood what the Church teaches regarding the doctrine.
I have never denied that it is possible for a person who is not a visible member of the Church to attain salvation. What I said is that it is impossible for a non-Catholic to attain salvation, since that is what the Church teaches. It can happen, and does happen, that there are people who are united to the Church, but do not appear so from “what appears”. The Bible says that “man seeth the things that appear, but God beholds the heart”.
I have never denied that it is possible for a person who is outside of the visible boundaries of the Church to attain salvation.
But the problem we have today is that, since so much emphasis has been placed on the “possibility” of a person who is not a visible member of the Church attaining salvation, that most people now deny what they are required to believe. In fact, they outright reject it as an error. This is what naturally happens when the “exception” is emphasized to the exclusion of the rule (which is what is happening in our day.
That is why from the time of Penetcost in 33AD to 1965, the Church NEVER emphasized the “possibility” that those who were outside of the visible boundaries could attain salvation. Actually, Pope Pius IX, who people love to quote as saying that the “incincibly ignorant” can possibly attain salvation, also said that it was “forbidden” to inquire about it. And he was talking to the Bishops, not mere laymen.
Pope Pius IX: “For it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is incincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For in truth, when released from these corporeal chains, ‘we shall see God as He is’ and shall understand perfectly by how close and beautifula bond of divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in acordance with Catholic teaching, there is ‘one God one faith and one baptism’; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry” (Denz. 1647).
As I said, the problem we have today is that there has been so much emphasis on the “possibilty” of a person outside of the visible boundaries of the Church attaining salvation, that now MOST people reject what we are bound to believe.
Today, if someone says ""For it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood;/u’ (Pope Pius IX), they are said to be in “serious error”. Yet that is a doctrine of our faith.
That is why I usually place the emphasis on the doctrine, rather than the “possibility”.
R
RSiscoe
Guest
I commented in the quote provided. Since there are two translation you need to look at the Latin to see which is correct. Remember, the 1992 Catechism had mistakes in it which were later corrected.
Check into it and see which quote is correct.
R
RSiscoe
Guest
The Jewish religion no longer exists. It ceased to exist in AD70. They no longer even have the lineage for the their priest. The religion of the Old Testament is no more.
What they have today is a brand new man made religion. It is not the religion of Jesus’ day, or of the Old Testament. That has completely disapeared and was replaced by the new man made religion.
Do Jews worship the same God? They do if they are Catholics.
If they reject Jesus, they have rejected the true God.
And Jesus said to the Jews who did not beleive in Him: “You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin… They answering said to Him: Abraham is our ftather. Jesus said to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham… You do the works of your father. They said therefore to him… we have one Father, God. Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceed, and came; for I came not of myself, but He sent me. Why do you not know my speech? [because]. You are of your father the devil. He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God” (John chapter 8).
The Jews who have rejected Jesus are of the devil, and therefore do not worship the true God. Catholics worship their father, and the unbelieving Jews worship theirs. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Jesus.
G
Genesis315
Guest
Robert in SD:
It’s the old adage, love the sinner, hate the sin. I don’t think anyone would disagree that we should hate the idea that abortion is ok. Why should we also not feel as strongly about the idea the Christ is not God?
Muslims themsleves should be loved in Truth; Islam–a heresy–should not be.
Sometimes you have to call a wolf a wolf so it doesn’t sneak in and take sheep from the good Shepherd’s flock.
It’s the old adage, love the sinner, hate the sin. I don’t think anyone would disagree that we should hate the idea that abortion is ok. Why should we also not feel as strongly about the idea the Christ is not God?
Muslims themsleves should be loved in Truth; Islam–a heresy–should not be.
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
Call a wolf a wolf. I have no problem with that. But don’t call someone laboring under the heresy of Islam a satan worshipper. Even a cursory review of Islam reveals they are clearly not worshipping Satan. Although they are in serious error, they are worshipping the same God that is recognized by the Jews and that we recognize as the first Person of the Trinity. So, call the Muslims heretics if you want to be “firm” but don’t call them devil worshippers.
By your rationale, one slips into Satan worship as soon as one slips into heresy. If so, then every protestant and every orthodox christian must worship Satan!
Preposterous!- Status