I wish I could believe in God

[Rabbi]

Life isn’t meaningless. I’m currently reading The Goldilocks Enigma by Paul Davies, you should give it a read, it explains so well how the universe is too ordered for there not to be a G-d.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

In general, when I say God, I mean a supernatural intelligence. But I usually also mean specifically a supernatural intelligence that intentionally created the universe and human beings.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

The ultimate proof that belief is not a choice is this: I choose to believe in God, but I do not believe in God. (I also choose to be rich, but I’m not rich. I choose to be twenty years old but I’m a lot more than twenty years old.) I can choose to act as if I believed in God because my actions are a choice. But feelings or sensations (like floating in weightlessness or on anesthetics) are not choices.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

It sounds like another version of the design argument. The design argument is only satisfying if you cherry-pick your examples. Lots of things in the universe are a hot mess.

 

[CelticWarlord]

I usually also mean specifically a supernatural intelligence that intentionally created the universe and human beings.

This is entirely all up to you, of course, and I don’t wish to sound in any way manipulative. If, as you say, you would like to believe in God but can’t, I would suggest that it’s okay to reject all the pre-concieved notions we typically carry with us about said god. For me, personally, to say I don’t believe in God would be the same as saying I don’t believe in the universe. There need be nothing magical or mysterious about it. For some of us the belief in God is entirely practical with no inherent need to get emotional. He just is and I’ve never doubted it.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

What’s the point of believing in God, if God is nothing but a non-conscious force of nature–like gravity or electromagnetism? Does anyone feel comforted by praying to gravity? Or feel their life is meaningful due to electromagnetism?

 

[rinnie]

To an extent you are correct you can’t just will yourself to believe and zap God gives you faith. For some it’s impossible not to believe or live without his grace myself included. I can promise you one thing if you truly want God and his grace go to him with a sincere heart and you will receive. with that said 2 things happen God knows your heart so you can’t fool him. Second if you indeed as are sincere continue to pray and when you are ready to receive you will indeed receive. in God’s time he knows when. This I can promise you. And when it happens true grace from God is earthmoving!!!

 

[rinnie]

Let me ask you this what’s the point in falling in love with someone and receiving even more love back. That is what God is love you can call it anything you want but you can’t see it and you sure have a horrible lonely life pretty much no life empty life without it

 

[porthos11]

It sounds like another version of the design argument. The design argument is only satisfying if you cherry-pick your examples. Lots of things in the universe are a hot mess.

Baby meet bathwater.

It takes only one example to prove the claim. The fact that your eye is a camera is proof enough of a design. The fact that hot messes exist does not detract from that fact.

Hence, to not believe in a Creator God is contrary to reason.

 

[CelticWarlord]

What’s the point of believing in God, if God is nothing but a non-conscious force of nature–

Ach, lassie (or laddie), that’s not what I said at all. If you go back to the earlier post you’ll see I said that this energy behind all of matter is conscious, aware, and involved. I believe it also has a limitless and loving personality, a tremendous sense of humor, and the longest arm of mercy and compassion you can imagine. More so in fact. What I would like to help you envision is the image of a deity you have said you would like to believe in. In order to do this we must toss out the pictures we carry of Santa Claus with a big stick, or the scenes on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, as moving as they are. But here’s the key, according to Thomas Aquinas. The moment we say, there I’ve got it, I understand who God is, we have already missed the mark.

 

[opulumpu]

I am assuming you have a computer and use it to write and post comments in this forum and to perform many other tasks. We will examine a computer to see if it can help you have a concept that God exists. For simplicity, a computer is a box with various circuits that help it perform different functions; some pilot airplanes, run dishwashers, create robots etc. Without the circuits the computer has no life and will remain just a box. Without a superior being (we humans) to build the exterior box, arrange the circuits, and write the softwares that give instructions to the computer, the computer will not exist. If every aspect of a computer is assembled, it does not come alive until it is plugged into an external power source. Imagine these computers (say robots) discussing their origin. Imagine them questioning the existence of we humans. In their little knowledge (which we human beings allowed them to have), they have no clue as to our existence unless we write a software into them informing them about humanity. They are in a different realm of existence. If we remove the power source (spirit) they die. Think about us as computers, put together by an Intelligent Being (God) who designed and assembled us and gave us life by providing the spiritual power source. When He takes away that spirit, we die and our body rots away, similar to disconnecting the computer from the electrical source. I will be tickled pink if I hear robots debating whether humans exist; I am tickled when we humans (and we are far more complex than robots) debate whether God exists. Just think about the process of eating, how a meal of broccoli, avocado, salmon and baked potatoes gets transformed into white and red blood cells, finger nails, hair, bones etc without human intervention. Think about the complexity of the human body and the myriad of synchronized activities that power our existence. I do not see how not to believe that there is a Supernatural Intelligence that put us together… and we call that Intelligence God.

 

[Viv135]

You will be in my prayers. Lets pray for the virtue of faith together. Ask our blessed Virgin for the Virtue of Faith.

 

[poche]

Do you live like the pagans?

 

[SugarMagnolia]

The eye argument has been debunked too many times for me to do it again. If your faith in God is based on that, then it is a weak faith indeed. A little knowledge about the evolution of the eye will rip the rug right out from under you.

 

[porthos11]

There is no “again.” You have not provided a single rebuttal. And you cannot reasonably debunk it because you cannot deny that the eye follows a design. The only other explanation is chance and since probability is a science yoy tell me the reasonableness of that position.

I do not base my faith on this. I am a Christian and my faith comes from divine revelation. And further i accept evolution and yet I am forced to conclude God. My eye argument is only to argue God’s existence only. Not his redemption or sin or the moral law or the Trinity. Nature has enough order and design to prove the Designer. It does not prove Christianity but that is only the first step.

So no copping out and no links. Present your counterargument as a post as I have. My position remains. To not believe in a Creator God is contrary to reason. At this point we are a long way from proving Christianity to you. But one does not require faith to simply conclude that a God of some sort exists.

 

[CelticWarlord]

A little knowledge about the evolution of the eye will rip the rug right out from under you.

Greetings once again. I was rather rushed when I made that last post and have a few thoughts to add today. First, very briefly, evolution need not detract from a faith in a Creator. In fact, I have heard Catholic theologians say that evolution is even more brilliant than creation by fiat. I have no problem with it, nor do the majority of Christians I know. The biblical story of Adam and Eve is, according to the Catholic Church, an allegory and is not to be taken literally, though if some derive a sense of personal comfort and meaning from doing so that’s fine too.

But what I wanted to add today which I didn’t have time for yesterday was to say that many of the common arguments for a god are easily defeated because they try to be precise and dogmatic. Fundamentalism does not like mystery. Atheists love poking fun at certain Christian claims of our origins, and rightly so, since they are often based on ancient, tribal ideals. For instance, God looks like us, God hates the same enemies we do, God is anxious to punish those who offend us and so on. This is God made in the image of man and is easily refuted. You don’t believe in that god and neither do I.

What the serious believer needs to do, along with those who are on the borderline and would like to believe but simply can’t, is get rid of the idea of a God who can be located spatially. Thinking of God as a being who is “up there somewhere” is not going to convince anyone looking for evidence and creates a weak position for the one making the claim. And God is not male. The fact of the matter is, none of us can explain this deity. There’s nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know”. Even the very word “god” is becoming a detriment in the discussion since it carries so many preconceived notions.

Anyway, if you want to believe, then just do so, but never expect the best explanations from ordinary folks like us.

 

[CelticWarlord]

If your faith in God

Sorry to keep barging in here, my friend, but I’ve been thinking on this all morning while I’m at work. There’s a very good 9 minute piece below by Bishop Robert Barron titled, Why I loved to listen to Christopher Hitchens. It may be of interest with regard to the current topic.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

If you ever debate with a real atheist do not rely on the design argument. It was debunked a long time ago.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

I don’t have to debunk things that have already been debunked. I didn’t come here to teach a lesson on the design argument. Scientists know a lot more about the eye than in the past. You can call me a cop out and demand links all you want, but I came here to nurture a seed of faith and not to explain why childish arguments are childish.

I think your faith must not be very strong if it hinges on a nineteenth century understanding of the eye.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

I’m not rebelling against an anthropomorphic God: the old man with white hair sitting on a cloud. I have two problems with god. The first occurred when I was a child. The nuns taught that God was all-powerful and all-good. But something happened in my life that was evil, so I instantly realized that God was not all-good. Later I grew up and realized that God was just a nice idea like Santa Claus. There was no magic in the real world. Once I learned logic and science there was no going back to the beautiful and magical beliefs of childhood.

Saying, if I want to believe, just do, is like saying if I want to be young and rich, just do.