I wish you could know

[Kolbe300]

A very dear friend of mine once observed that it was likely possible for most gay folks to look back at the FIRST time they engaged in homosexual acts and admit that they knew the behavior was wrong. I think this axiom is useful in every area of life. Once you conquer the guilt of the “first time” by justification, denial, and rejection of those perfectly natural guilt feelings, you have now begun the process of deadening the conscience. As C.S. Lewis tells us, it is nearly
impossible to recognize sin when you are knee deep in it. The very act of continuous sin numbs us and our hearts to the truth.

Hello again and thank you for the discussion! I think you are very right, as is C.S. Lewis (you gotta love that guy). I have no doubt that most gay folks who become physical probably realize the sinfulness of that act. Two of my closest friends in high school, both heterosexual and from christian families, ended up having sex in high school, obviously prior to marriage. Each of them felt that same guilty realization, and I know that because they shared with me (and still do). It should be realized, however, that they never felt guilty for the heterosexual attraction (not lust) that brought them there. And if we believe what the Church teaches, neither should the homosexual. My friends are both happily married now. That is the biggest difference. The homosexual who initially feels that guilt does not have, and will never have, the means to properly express that physical desire. The young gay person probably does realize the sinfulness of the act while at the same time realizing the lack of sin in their attraction. Someone without a deep faith and without support from those around them is in a difficult position and very likely to fall again into that sin. It’s human nature. Just look at the sad rate of premarital sex just among heterosexuals. If they are having trouble waiting until marriage, should we be surprised that gay men and women are having trouble waiting forever? (Especially when they are lacking deep faith?) I have no doubt gay folks may see the act as sinful. Unfortunately, realizing that guilt doesn’t make the desire go away. We all know that.

The Church does not have a very “user friendly” message for heterosexuals either so let’s not play the game of “who has it worse.”

I really hope you don’t think I’m playing that game. I don’t seek sympathy, just understanding.

We are called, as Catholics, to be in the world but not of it. We must come to these issues with a different approach and we must bring these issues to the world in a way that does not cause even more confusion.

I couldn’t agree more. And I believe that compassion doesn’t have to give birth to confusion.

Again, while you seem to be under the impression that active homosexuals are unaware of the sinfulness of their behavior, I would assert that most knew at one time.

I hope I’ve helped you to see that I’m not under that impression at all. Again, a clear distinction between the person and the behavior has got to be made.

The fact that they have chosen to ignore or anesthetize the natural and appropriate feelings of guilt points to the direct of effect of unrepentent sin. We are told in the NT:

I agree. It’s a lesson we all can learn.

I sent you a PM in response to your other questions

Got it and replied! Thanks again.

Peace and Love

 

[agangbern]

Hi agangbern! Thanks for your response. I’m honestly not sure why you would ask if “liking” someone of the same sex makes one homosexual. Maybe I don’t understand what you mean by “like”. Please forgive me (and I mean that honestly) if your question was genuine, but isn’t the answer to that obvious? Don’t we all “like” people of both sexes?

To me, the answer is not obvious, because I do not believe, and have not read any article that says, that when a person likes another person of the same sex in the concept of like that I just described, then the person is a homosexual. The concept of “attracted to the same sex” is simply very broad. To “like” as in to admire, to idolize, to feel pleasant about a thing or person. When this liking is directed to a person of the same sex I do not see a problem with that.

I was trying to show a bit of my experience and struggles as a gay person. When I say “attracted to the same sex” in that context, it means that any desire for physical intimacy and any sexual attraction that I have ever had has been for males, never females.

I hope that helps and I hope the shoes fit!

That’s better, a definition of “homosexual” coming out right from yourself. Therefore, it is basically the presence of desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex that defines a homosexual. Absence of such desire, the person is not a homosexual.
Now, going into your request, that I take off my shoes and put yours for a time. Let us assume that I desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex (unfortunately, I can understand this kind of desire only as if directed to the opposite sex). What now shall I do with this desire? Must I succumb to it? Just like when I desire for sexual pleasure with the opposite sex, must I always strive to find ways to have the desire fulfilled? No. I will not, because I am a human being with dignity and free will. I am not supposed to remain a slave of concupiscence. As one poem says, “I am the captain of my soul”.
Desire can be redirected. If a heterosexual can redirect his desire for sex to some other noble causes, then a “homosexual” should equally have the same power.

 

[hasikelee]

I like to think that I don’t post very many “meanie posts” and that hopefully no one takes my posts as offensive or mean.

But I couldn’t resist this. Seriously, where do you live? Have you ever attended school? Gone grocery shopping? Do you have a family? Neighbors? Coworkers?

I mean, you must live in Utopia or somewhere near there to think everyone on this forum is a bunch of meanie weanies.

I’ve seen a lot of instances where two people get into a stiff debate that goes on forever, and some people berate one another. I just shake my head at people who call this forum “mean” or “harsh.” Go meet reality. This is soft baby land compared to the cruel, evil people in the world. :tsktsk:

Okay, there’s my mean post for the week.

 

[East_and_West]

This is the first time I’ve posted to this board, so I start by saying hello to all of you. I am a devout Catholic, a wannabe apologist, and a gay man. I came to this board interested in learning and sharing with others, both Catholic and non-Catholic. I was struck by the number of threads dealing with homosexuality and have spent two days and too many hours looking at different threads on the subject and the subsequent discussions. Because I often times had a near irresistible urge to throw my computer out the window, I’ve decided the best thing I can do is offer some (name removed by moderator)ut. (I can’t afford another computer.)
I was saddened so much by the enormous lack of empathy and abundance of callousness I saw from many Catholics on this board. Fortunately, I believe that much of this is the result of a total lack of understanding. Unfortunately, that lack of understanding and empathy runs rampant in our society and our Church.

Peace

I can share your experience as I am gay as well and have been struggling with it since middle school. I used to be actively gay, and let me tell you, I found a deeper physical and emotional connection with the men I dated than i ever had with a woman. However, I know the Church’s teachings are true and I know what Christ requires of me: celibicy (i am a terrible speller as well. lol). It is just so difficult to follow Christ’s comand when it would be so easy to go out and find another guy. People can’t understand this. When I was dating a guy whom I loved very much my friend from Church found out about it. He talked to me about it and I told him to imagine that God were to say that his (my friend’s) relationship with his wife was wrong. That really affected him and i think he as a better understanding of the struggle now.

 

[East_and_West]

That’s better, a definition of “homosexual” coming out right from yourself. Therefore, it is basically the presence of desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex that defines a homosexual. Absence of such desire, the person is not a homosexual.

It seems that you think all we desire is sexual pleasure with members of the same sex. That is simply not true at all. We also desire to love and share our a relational intimacy with members of the same sex. I know that that is against God’s laws, so I don’t do it, but what we want is much more than just sex.

 

[agangbern]

It seems that you think all we desire is sexual pleasure with members of the same sex. That is simply not true at all. We also desire to love and share our a relational intimacy with members of the same sex. I know that that is against God’s laws, so I don’t do it, but what we want is much more than just sex.

That is why I wanted very much to understand you. I want a clear definition flowing out right from a homosexual of what really is a homosexual! Take note: I was not the one who gave a definition of homosexual. The OP was the one who made it. And you seem to have stretched very far the definition of homosexual that the OP gave.
You said, “you think all we desire is sexual pleasure”. How did you arrive at that conclusion? What the OP implied with his definition is that "absence of desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex", the person is not a homosexual. Because by his definition, the basic element that makes a homosexual a homosexual is “desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex.”

 

[Kolbe300]

That’s better, a definition of “homosexual” coming out right from yourself. Therefore, it is basically the presence of desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex that defines a homosexual. Absence of such desire, the person is not a homosexual.

Hi agangbern! That is an incredibly strange deduction to have made from my post. For starters, where did I say that was my definition of homosexual? I believe I was clarifying what was meant by the term “attracted to males” in the context of my original post. In fact, I didn’t think the definition of homosexual was really an issue (until now, apparently).

You’ve helped to provide a great example of what many people do today. So many folks, when defining a homosexual, see nothing more than sex and sexual pleasure. They certainly don’t want to include love in that equation because that’s difficult to handle. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that may be how you see it. By assuming that it’s my definition of the word, you’re able to sit back, shake your head, and say, “I knew it. It’s all about sex. Those crazy gay people.”

How would you define heterosexual (seriously)? Do you define it as “basically the presence of desire for sexual pleasure with the opposite sex”? Would you reduce it to that? For whatever it’s worth, my “definition” of a gay person, a homosexual, an SSA person, whatever name you want to give it, is someone who desires to share their love, their mind, and their heart; someone who would love to share a deep emotional, spiritual, and physical intimacy with a member of the same gender. Does that make sense? Just as is the case with heterosexuality, it is so much more than sexual intimacy.

Now, going into your request, that I take off my shoes and put yours for a time. Let us assume that I desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex (unfortunately, I can understand this kind of desire only as if directed to the opposite sex).

Which is fine, because that kind of desire is no less for you and no more for you than it is for me. It’s the same.

What now shall I do with this desire? Must I succumb to it? Just like when I desire for sexual pleasure with the opposite sex, must I always strive to find ways to have the desire fulfilled? No. I will not, because I am a human being with dignity and free will. I am not supposed to remain a slave of concupiscence. As one poem says, “I am the captain of my soul”.

I like the quote! That attitude shows faith, strength, and courage.

Desire can be redirected. If a heterosexual can redirect his desire for sex to some other noble causes, then a “homosexual” should equally have the same power.

Absolutely, desire can be redirected. I hope no one has tried to tell you that a homosexual doesn’t have that same “power.” And my entire point with the post was simple: I just wish more people would show some understanding to that gay persons desire. I’ve never understood why people don’t, especially since they’ve known the exact same desire. It has so much more to do with than just SEX. It’s loving companionship, emotional intimacy, and unity that is desired as well. Those crazy gay people aren’t just fighting for a right to have sex. They’re fighting for something much deeper, and they need a lot of compassion to bring them to the truth.

Have a great Christmas!

Peace and Love

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Absolutely, desire can be redirected. I hope no one has tried to tell you that a homosexual doesn’t have that same “power.” And my entire point with the post was simple: I just wish more people would show some understanding to that gay persons desire. I’ve never understood why people don’t, especially since they’ve known the exact same desire. It has so much more to do with than just SEX. It’s loving companionship, emotional intimacy, and unity that is desired as well. Those crazy gay people aren’t just fighting for a right to have sex. They’re fighting for something much deeper, and they need a lot of compassion to bring them to the truth.

Have a great Christmas!

Peace and Love

Got it!

 

[Kolbe300]

Take note: I was not the one who gave a definition of homosexual."

Actually, you were. You gave the definition and said it was mine.

The OP was the one who made it

.

Actually, I wasn’t. My definition is in the above post.

What the OP implied with his definition is that "absence of desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex", the person is not a homosexual.

agangbern, that is was what YOU implied from YOUR definition.

Because by his definition, the basic element that makes a homosexual a homosexual is "desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex.

Do you see how you’ve taken what I believe is the definition you wanted me to have for homosexuality and ran with it?

I hope my definition of homosexual is a bit more clear now. Have a great Sunday!

Peace and Love

 

[Kolbe300]

Got it!

Hurray!! Thanks for your patience and your discussions!

Peace and Love

 

[Kolbe300]

But I couldn’t resist this. Seriously, where do you live?:

The good ole’ US of A.

Have you ever attended school?

College degree.

Gone grocery shopping?

Yes, but I’m trying to quit.

Do you have a family? Neighbors? Coworkers?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

I mean, you must live in Utopia or somewhere near there to think everyone on this forum is a bunch of meanie weanies.

First of all, kudos for saying “meanie weanies”. I don’t live in Utopia, but if I ever find it on the map…

I’ve seen a lot of instances where two people get into a stiff debate that goes on forever, and some people berate one another. I just shake my head at people who call this forum “mean” or “harsh.”

Don’t hurt your neck shaking your head at me! Not everyone in the same situation perceives the same thing. And not everyone is in the same situation. No offense, but if you haven’t noticed a peculiar “meanieness” in some of the threads, maybe you are the meanie. In all seriousness, I’ve seen a number of very un-Christ-like posts in here. Maybe they were only offensive to me, but my private message box is saying otherwise.

Go meet reality.

Been there, doing that.

This is soft baby land compared to the cruel, evil people in the world. :tsktsk:

Is soft baby land anywhere near Utopia?

Have a very Meanie…I mean Merry Christmas!!

Peace and Love

 

[Kolbe300]

I can share your experience as I am gay as well and have been struggling with it since middle school. I used to be actively gay, and let me tell you, I found a deeper physical and emotional connection with the men I dated than i ever had with a woman. However, I know the Church’s teachings are true and I know what Christ requires of me: celibicy (i am a terrible speller as well. lol). It is just so difficult to follow Christ’s comand when it would be so easy to go out and find another guy. People can’t understand this. When I was dating a guy whom I loved very much my friend from Church found out about it. He talked to me about it and I told him to imagine that God were to say that his (my friend’s) relationship with his wife was wrong. That really affected him and i think he as a better understanding of the struggle now.

Hello EastandWest! Thanks so much for your comments. It does my heart good to hear from people on a similar journey. I had a spiritual director tell me that we have an opportunity to be a major blessing for many people. To be in a position to give people some enlightenment on homosexuality is a beautiful thing. Not always easy, but what is? You were a blessing to that friend of yours. It helps people to understand, to show empathy for others (not JUST gay people), and to put a face on something they may have been very afraid of before.

You said that people can’t understand this. It’s very true for so many people. What I’d like to do is open the eyes of some people who choose not to even try to understand. Anyways, thank you again. I’ll keep you in my prayers. Please pray for me as well, I need all I can get!!

Peace and Love

 

[hasikelee]

The good ole’ US of A.

College degree.

Yes, but I’m trying to quit.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

First of all, kudos for saying “meanie weanies”. I don’t live in Utopia, but if I ever find it on the map…

Don’t hurt your neck shaking your head at me! Not everyone in the same situation perceives the same thing. And not everyone is in the same situation. No offense, but if you haven’t noticed a peculiar “meanieness” in some of the threads, maybe you are the meanie. In all seriousness, I’ve seen a number of very un-Christ-like posts in here. Maybe they were only offensive to me, but my private message box is saying otherwise.

Been there, doing that.

Is soft baby land anywhere near Utopia?

Have a very Meanie…I mean Merry Christmas!!

Peace and Love

Oh my! Take things as they are!

 

[agangbern]

Hi agangbern! That is an incredibly strange deduction to have made from my post. For starters, where did I say that was my definition of homosexual? I believe I was clarifying what was meant by the term “attracted to males” in the context of my original post. In fact, I didn’t think the definition of homosexual was really an issue (until now, apparently).

Your OP reveals that “attracted to the same sex” is basic to a homosexual. That is why I followed it up with the question of what you mean by “attracted to the same sex”. And you answered. Actually, in the process, you were spelling out your definition of “homosexual”. But now you deny it. OK.

You’ve helped to provide a great example of what many people do today. So many folks, when defining a homosexual, see nothing more than sex and sexual pleasure. They certainly don’t want to include love in that equation because that’s difficult to handle.

Didn’t it ever occur to your mind that they might have strong basis for believing that way?

How would you define heterosexual (seriously)? Do you define it as “basically the presence of desire for sexual pleasure with the opposite sex”? Would you reduce it to that?

I do not make my own definition. I simply respect the definition given by authorities as in the following:

*het·er·o·sex·u·al (ht-r-sksh-l)
adj.

1. Sexually oriented to persons of the opposite sex.
2. Of or relating to different sexes.
   n.
   A heterosexual person.
   heter·o·sexu·al·ly adv.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun 1. heterosexualheterosexual - a heterosexual person; someone having a sexual orientation to persons of the opposite sex
*

For whatever it’s worth, my “definition” of a gay person, a homosexual, an SSA person, whatever name you want to give it, is someone who desires to share their love, their mind, and their heart; someone who would love to share a deep emotional, spiritual, and physical intimacy with a member of the same gender. Does that make sense? Just as is the case with heterosexuality, it is so much more than sexual intimacy.

I see. But I would say that yours is a very unique definition, not to say out-of-the world . But anyway, are there known written authorities that support your personal definition of homosexual? Compare your definition with that of the dictionary:

*homosexual
2 entries found.

Main Entry:
1ho·mo·sex·u·al Listen to the pronunciation of 1homosexual
Pronunciation:
\ˌhō-mə-ˈsek-sh(ə-)wəl, -ˈsek-shəl\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1892

1 : of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex 2 : of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex
— ho·mo·sex·u·al·ly adverb*

Does anyone these days simply make his own personal definition setting aside the generally accepted or published ones? Are there no more absolute definitions these days, just each one to his own?

 

[Kolbe300]

Oh my! Take things as they are!

Oh my goodness, I really hope you know I was only playing around! You do, don’t you?

I’m so confused!

Peace and Love

 

[hasikelee]

Oh my goodness, I really hope you know I was only playing around! You do, don’t you?

I’m so confused!

Peace and Love

Lol it should read “you take thing as they are”

Don’t worry, I’m not one of those meanie weanies…as you can see my attempt fell flat.

 

[Kolbe300]

Lol it should read “you take thing as they are”

Don’t worry, I’m not one of those meanie weanies…as you can see my attempt fell flat.

LOL!! I’m pretty convinced that you’d have to try VERY hard to be a meanie weanie!

Merry Christmas!!

Peace and Love

 

[East_and_West]

Kolbe, these are all excellent posts and express the same things that I am feeling.

 

[East_and_West]

Oh my! Take things as they are!

I thought it was a fun and light hearted post. Enjoy it.

 

[East_and_West]

Your OP reveals that “attracted to the same sex” is basic to a homosexual. That is why I followed it up with the question of what you mean by “attracted to the same sex”. And you answered. Actually, in the process, you were spelling out your definition of “homosexual”. But now you deny it. OK.

Didn’t it ever occur to your mind that they might have strong basis for believing that way?

I do not make my own definition. I simply respect the definition given by authorities as in the following:

het·er·o·sex·u·al (ht-r-sksh-l)
adj.

1. Sexually oriented to persons of the opposite sex.
2. Of or relating to different sexes.
   n.
   A heterosexual person.
   heter·o·sexu·al·ly adv.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun 1. heterosexualheterosexual - a heterosexual person; someone having a sexual orientation to persons of the opposite sex

I see. But I would say that yours is a very unique definition, not to say out-of-the world . But anyway, are there known written authorities that support your personal definition of homosexual? Compare your definition with that of the dictionary:

homosexual
2 entries found.

Main Entry:
1ho·mo·sex·u·al Listen to the pronunciation of 1homosexual
Pronunciation:
\ˌhō-mə-ˈsek-sh(ə-)wəl, -ˈsek-shəl\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1892

1 : of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex 2 : of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex
— ho·mo·sex·u·al·ly adverb

Does anyone these days simply make his own personal definition setting aside the generally accepted or published ones? Are there no more absolute definitions these days, just each one to his own?

My experience as a homosexual has always been a desire for more than sex. Rather a desire for intimacy and to share my love. But i will say that there are many homosexuals who only want sex. But wait!!! There are many heterosexuals who only want sex.