I wish you could know

[agangbern]

It can be a heavy cross. Thankfully, every cross is worth bearing. Since you and I can’t seem to get past definitions , what do you mean by fulfillment of physical attraction? I understand what you mean by fulfillment of sexual desire, but I’m confused as to how one fulfills physical attraction?

Actually, I simply used your own words in my reply. Here are your words:

I have never chosen who I am physically attracted to. I have also never chosen to have sexual desires, yet I have had them.

Whatever your meaning to “physically attracted” there, that is also my meaning to it.

Yes, I meant lust by that. I was digging deeper into your quote from that other thread. Hopefully we can discuss that here. If not, maybe somewhere else.

I guess we have nothing more to discuss about that quote , unless you would make here a controversial statement regarding it.

Again, you keep leaving out “a desire for.” I believe that the desire for love and physical intimacy with someone of the same gender is part of the definition of a homosexual.

OK, add the word desire to the definition. It will substantially have this: “someone who desires for love and sex with the same gender”. That would even be more dangerous and frightening.

One can fulfill the desire to love, without it having a single thing do do with flesh. Every human being can do that. One could go without ever fulfilling their desire for physical intimacy, whether it be lustful thoughts or physical acts, and still be homosexual.

Oh, just be careful, because lustful thoughts are sins.

I think I see where you may be trying to go. I could also be very wrong. But it seems to me as if you want to conclude that if one doesn’t fulfill that physical desire for intimacy in any way, then they really aren’t homosexual. Therefore, as you said earlier, “I find no sense in calling you gay.” As I mentioned before, I’ll get to that in my next post.

Then I’ll wait for that next post of yours.

What many heterosexual Christians say (and I’ve heard it countless times) to a homosexual involved in a relationship, is that he/she is not capable of loving his/her partner like a heterosexual is capable of loving his/her partner. The homosexual says, “But I’m not talking about sex.” And the Christian says, “It doesn’t matter.” They assume the love cannot be true if the sexual act cannot be true. The Christian so often cannot separate the sexual intimacy from the love that has absolutely nothing to do with physical desire. It is an attack on the genuiness, depth, and capability of a person to love.

What you have heard, I have never heard. Maybe those men you offered your love are simply afraid, if not feel vomiting, to engage themselves with a homosexual’s love. I guess they too did not chose that feeling of nausea, but they simply have it like a cross too that they must bear.

 

[agangbern]

No…that is a label…not a judgement. I am heterosexual…it’s who I am, not a judgement. ??

It is already passing a judgment upon oneself when he says “I am a heterosexual”. When we attribute an adjective to a thing, we actually judged that thing.

 

[Kolbe300]

Yes, and having gotten to know you a bit better and witnessed your inclination to apply “trickery” to make a point, I also wonder why you introduced yourself as a gay man yet waited until the third paragraph to explain that you are celibate.

Hello my friend! I’m going to address the “why call yourself gay” in a post by itself, since the question is coming from multiple sources.

Regarding the “trickery” – when you stop to think about it – it isn’t trickery at all, unless you’re tricked. You ask why I waited until the third paragraph to explain that I’m celibate. I’d answer that with a question, “Why should it matter?” Remember hate the sin, love the sinner that so many proclaim? If one were to put that into practice, their charity towards me would never change, no matter when I told them I was celibate. If one’s feelings for me as a human being changed after the third paragraph, they’ve been tricked. See what I mean? If one thought nothing less of me prior to hearing I’m celibate than they did after, they weren’t “tricked” at all. For them, there was no trick. And it was probably the biggest point of my post: why do people on here treat the homosexual who agrees with the Church differently than those who don’t? Anyone who was “tricked” by that needs not take a closer look at the “trickster”, but at themselves.

Many members who have been here a good long time also find themselves frustrated by the near constant justifications given for homosexual behavior (often by Catholics!). So we understand how one could feel compelled to throw the computer out the window.

New Year’s resolution: don’t throw computer out window. I can understand how frustrating that has got to be. Staying compassionate can be a hard thing, especially in light of that type of bombardment. However, if someone finds themselves (like in the instance of my post) immediately having a negative reaction to the thought that I’m just another “active” homosexual, then maybe they should take a break from CAF. Although it’s only human to want to lose some of that Christian charity, there’s never an excuse to do so.

Stereotypes exist, sometimes for a reason. Practising homosexuals who come to CAF often follow a typical pattern of justification and a method of accusing Catholics and NC-Christians of hateful and bigoted ideology. Therefore, many Christians are left with the impression (coupled with gay activism in the public square) that homosexuals wish to provoke and engage in character assault.

I can see why homosexuals may accuse Christians of being hateful, it’s because some “Christians” (note the quotation marks, no trickery there) are. I can see why Christians may accuse homosexuals of engaging in character assault, it’s because some of them do. That leaves us, as the Christians, with two options: either be a reflection of Christ when it is so difficult to do (the call of sainthood), or leave. I’ll say it again because I believe it with every fiber of my being: if that homosexual (or any other person), no matter how vindictive their purpose, walks away feeling unloved, we have failed. In the words of my mother (and probably yours too), “If you can’t say anything nice…” You know the rest.

In any event, we would all do well to remember that internet forums can not convey even a fraction of human emotion but they can help us to see how we present ourselves - and that applies to everyone

So very true. Thank you again Blessedtoo. (I love the screen name by the way.) I hope your Christmas is blessed!!

 

[Kolbe300]

Whatever your meaning to “physically attracted” there, that is also my meaning to it.

Okay, good. I’m still not sure how you “fulfill” physical attraction. At this point, I don’t think it really matters.

OK, add the word desire to the definition. It will substantially have this: “someone who desires for love and sex with the same gender”. That would even be more dangerous and frightening.

Yes, a human beings desire for love and sex can certainly be dangerous. How mine is more dangerous than yours, I’m not sure.

Oh, just be careful, because lustful thoughts are sins.

Thank you. You be careful too.

Then I’ll wait for that next post of yours.

It might not be tonight, it’s getting late. You never know though!

What you have heard, I have never heard.

I wish that were surprising, but it isn’t. It’s true in a lot of cases though. I’ve probably had a more vested interest in the subject which would create more exposure for me.

Maybe those men you offered your love are simply afraid, if not feel vomiting, to engage themselves with a homosexual’s love.

What a heartbreaking thing to hear. I guess you nailed it on the head, though. Remember when you said, “Kolbe, please understand. Christians do not attack love.” Yet the love I offer, the love that comes from Christ, makes those men (you?) feel like vomiting. And why? I’ll let you answer that: cause it’s a “homosexual’s love.” Those are your words. But they don’t attack a person’s love, do they.

I guess they too did not chose that feeling of nausea, but they simply have it like a cross too that they must bear

If the love Christ shares through me makes them nauseous, I pity them. Although I pity them, they can vomit until they’re blue cause I won’t stop loving.

I love you, agangbern. And I pray that doesn’t make you sick. I won’t be posting again tonight. I’m very tired and very sad.

 

[rlg94086]

Hello my friend! I’m going to address the “why call yourself gay” in a post by itself, since the question is coming from multiple sources.

Regarding the “trickery” – when you stop to think about it – it isn’t trickery at all, unless you’re tricked. You ask why I waited until the third paragraph to explain that I’m celibate. I’d answer that with a question, “Why should it matter?” Remember hate the sin, love the sinner that so many proclaim? If one were to put that into practice, their charity towards me would never change, no matter when I told them I was celibate. If one’s feelings for me as a human being changed after the third paragraph, they’ve been tricked. See what I mean? If one thought nothing less of me prior to hearing I’m celibate than they did after, they weren’t “tricked” at all. For them, there was no trick. And it was probably the biggest point of my post: why do people on here treat the homosexual who agrees with the Church differently than those who don’t? Anyone who was “tricked” by that needs not take a closer look at the “trickster”, but at themselves.

New Year’s resolution: don’t throw computer out window. I can understand how frustrating that has got to be. Staying compassionate can be a hard thing, especially in light of that type of bombardment. However, if someone finds themselves (like in the instance of my post) immediately having a negative reaction to the thought that I’m just another “active” homosexual, then maybe they should take a break from CAF. Although it’s only human to want to lose some of that Christian charity, there’s never an excuse to do so.

I can see why homosexuals may accuse Christians of being hateful, it’s because some “Christians” (note the quotation marks, no trickery there) are. I can see why Christians may accuse homosexuals of engaging in character assault, it’s because some of them do. That leaves us, as the Christians, with two options: either be a reflection of Christ when it is so difficult to do (the call of sainthood), or leave. I’ll say it again because I believe it with every fiber of my being:** if that homosexual (or any other person), no matter how vindictive their purpose, walks away feeling unloved, we have failed.** In the words of my mother (and probably yours too), “If you can’t say anything nice…” You know the rest.

So very true. Thank you again Blessedtoo. (I love the screen name by the way.) I hope your Christmas is blessed!!

Your points are well made, but you do understand that some will “walk away feeling unloved” just because we won’t accept their sinful behavior?

I agree that some Christians are very hateful in their delivery of the truth, but the truth should still be given when a question is asked. Please, don’t judge your fellow Christians so harshly. They are struggling with their sinful nature, just as you are. We all fall short of the mark - that’s why Jesus came. As it is Christmas (almost here…already in some time zones ), this is a good time to remember that.

Merry Christmas!

 

[blessedtoo]

Regarding the “trickery” – when you stop to think about it – it isn’t trickery at all, unless you’re tricked. You ask why I waited until the third paragraph to explain that I’m celibate. I’d answer that with a question, “Why should it matter?” Remember hate the sin, love the sinner that so many proclaim? If one were to put that into practice, their charity towards me would never change, no matter when I told them I was celibate. If one’s feelings for me as a human being changed after the third paragraph, they’ve been tricked. See what I mean? If one thought nothing less of me prior to hearing I’m celibate than they did after, they weren’t “tricked” at all. For them, there was no trick. And it was probably the biggest point of my post: why do people on here treat the homosexual who agrees with the Church differently than those who don’t? Anyone who was “tricked” by that needs not take a closer look at the “trickster”, but at themselves.

Sorry. My “feelings” don’t change depending on the postion a poster takes. You tend to put an awful lot of emphasis of feelings. For my part, when a person starts a thread the way you did, I am simply reading it to determine what it is they want. It took several paragraphs to decipher your intent, and in the meantime, your objective was obscured by the confusing delivery. I’ll admit it’s the first post on this topic that didn’t fit into the two typical catagories: 1.homosexual living chastely looking for advice and support or 2. active homosexual looking to malign all Catholics and Christians as intolerant, bigoted, homphobes.

However, if someone finds themselves (like in the instance of my post) immediately having a negative reaction to the thought that I’m just another “active” homosexual, then maybe they should take a break from CAF. Although it’s only human to want to lose some of that Christian charity, there’s never an excuse to do so.

No. I had a confused reaction and, to be honest, I felt a bit manipulated.

I’ll say it again because I believe it with every fiber of my being: if that homosexual (or any other person), no matter how vindictive their purpose, walks away feeling unloved, we have failed. In the words of my mother (and probably yours too), “If you can’t say anything nice…” You know the rest.

I will say this because I believe it with every fiber of my being: Feeling loved and BEING loved are two entirely different things. Every human alive has felt unloved at some point in time. Many folks, including Catholics and Christians struggle with the fact that God loves them because they can’t “feel” it. Husbands wonder about the love of their wives and vice versa. So too, children for parents. What does that mean? Feelings are not facts. Feelings are not the truth. Feelings depend on externals. Real love, whether it is felt constantly or not, transcends the externals and remains steadfast IN SPITE of feelings.

 

[agangbern]

Okay, good. I’m still not sure how you “fulfill” physical attraction. At this point, I don’t think it really matters.

Ha ha ha! I really see truth to the assessment of Blessedto here: “Tricky”. Why do I say this? I say this because you seem arguing against your own shadow. Look, did I ever say that physical attraction shall be fulfilled? No. To help you remember, here is what I said:

This is really a heavy cross that you must bear because there is simply no way that this physical attraction and sexual desire for the same gender would find fulfillment with Church consent.
Please read carefully, because “physical attraction” there is not separable from “sexual desire”. They are joined by the conjunction “and”. What I joined together, no one here has right to put asunder! Oh, this is almost bringing me to the basic institution of society.

Yes, a human beings desire for love and sex can certainly be dangerous. How mine is more dangerous than yours, I’m not sure.

The homosexual’s desire, not necessarily yours, for love and sex is more dangerous because the object of that of the homosexual is the same gender, and falling into it is a blatant rebellion against God’s natural law.

What a heartbreaking thing to hear. I guess you nailed it on the head, though. Remember when you said, “Kolbe, please understand. Christians do not attack love.” Yet the love I offer, the love that comes from Christ, makes those men (you?) feel like vomiting. And why? I’ll let you answer that: cause it’s a “homosexual’s love.” Those are your words. But they don’t attack a person’s love, do they.

What I said is true.
I was referring to true love. I am sure you know that God is Love. He is the main source and author of Love. Now, when the homosexual desires for sex with the same gender and seeks to have it realized, then that is a declaration of rebellion against God, the source and author of love. How can one say he loves someone and at the same time he is in rebellion against Love? No, the two facts negate each other. Either one loves and therefore not rebel against Love, or rebel against Love and therefore does not love.

I love you, agangbern. And I pray that doesn’t make you sick. I won’t be posting again tonight. I’m very tired and very sad.

I hope and pray that you would come to understand what is the meaning of true Love.

 

[Kolbe300]

Your points are well made, but you do understand that some will “walk away feeling unloved” just because we won’t accept their sinful behavior? !

I absolutely realize that and I apologize if I made it seem otherwise. The point is, we don’t know if one feels loved when they walk away. Only they can be the judge of that. Therefore: preach it with love. (Something many seem incapable of doing.)

Please, don’t judge your fellow Christians so harshly. They are struggling with their sinful nature, just as you are.

I’m not judging my fellow Christians, I’m pointing at the lack of love in their delivery. I may be harsh towards some deliveries, but I offer words of love and kindness every time. It should be a two way street. You’d think true Christians would be better at that than the people lost in sin. I’d expect harsh, unloving judgement from them. And you know what? A word of encouragement and love is a lot easier on a message board, when you can sit back and make sure you aren’t being harsh. If one can’t do it here…you have to wonder.

Merry Christmas

You too! I pray it is a verry Blessed day for you.

 

[Kolbe300]

Sorry. My “feelings” don’t change depending on the postion a poster takes. You tend to put an awful lot of emphasis of feelings.

That is my fault. “Feelings” was definitely the wrong word. If one’s opinion of my dignity as a human being changes based on whether I am celibate or not, I stand by everything I said.

It took several paragraphs to decipher your intent, and in the meantime, your objective was obscured by the confusing delivery.

I apologize if it came across as confusing to you, and I’m not sure why it did. The post was completely honest (I wasn’t playing a “trick” on anyone), and I stated exactly why I was making the post.

I’ll admit it’s the first post on this topic that didn’t fit into the two typical catagories: 1.homosexual living chastely looking for advice and support or 2. active homosexual looking to malign all Catholics and Christians as intolerant, bigoted, homphobes.

I’m glad you pointed that out because we can all learn a good lesson from it. We shouldn’t assume a posters intent until the entire post is read. I’ve already caught myself starting to do that.

No. I had a confused reaction and, to be honest, I felt a bit manipulated.

I feel terrible that you felt manipulated, and I’m sorry. I honestly do not understand why that is. I was not trying to be manipulative AT ALL. Maybe that comes with being a long-time poster and seeing a lot of things, I don’t know. Would it not have been manipulative if I said I was celibate in the first sentence? The last? I just don’t understand.

I will say this because I believe it with every fiber of my being: Feeling loved and BEING loved are two entirely different things. Every human alive has felt unloved at some point in time. Many folks, including Catholics and Christians struggle with the fact that God loves them because they can’t “feel” it. Husbands wonder about the love of their wives and vice versa. So too, children for parents. What does that mean? Feelings are not facts. Feelings are not the truth. Feelings depend on externals. Real love, whether it is felt constantly or not, transcends the externals and remains steadfast IN SPITE of feelings

I totally agree with you, true love transcends the externals. One’s not “feeling” loved does not mean they aren’t loved, I concede that. However, we are called to be a reflection (visible) of Christ to the world. If one is content with BEING loving while not ACTING loving, I would seriously suggest they pray about what being a reflection of Christ to our world means. We can love the poor with all our hearts, but if we don’t get off the couch and do something about it, we haven’t been a reflection at all. Maybe it’s why Mother Teresa believed the smile to be one of our most powerful gifts. She certainly didn’t have to smile for her heart to love, but she did it anyways. And we can all learn from that.

God bless all of you! You are all in my prayers on this wonderful day. Merry Christmas!

 

[whatevergirl]

It is already passing a judgment upon oneself when he says “I am a heterosexual”. When we attribute an adjective to a thing, we actually judged that thing.

I see what you’re saying. I am looking at ‘judging’ perhaps in a different light. But, thank you for your clarification…it makes sense.

 

[Kolbe300]

This is really a heavy cross that you must bear because there is simply no way that this physical attraction and sexual desire for the same gender would find fulfillment with Church consent.
Please read carefully, because “physical attraction” there is not separable from “sexual desire”. They are joined by the conjunction “and”. What I joined together, no one here has right to put asunder! Oh, this is almost bringing me to the basic institution of society.

I didn’t realize that right wasn’t mine. But, since the two are deemed inseperable by you, am I to assume you desire to have sex with every woman you find attractive? Or are the two only inseparable when it applies to me?

The homosexual’s desire, not necessarily yours, for love and sex is more dangerous because the object of that of the homosexual is the same gender, and falling into it is a blatant rebellion against God’s natural law.

I view every mortal sin as equally dangerous. Not sure why you don’t, but we can agree to disagree.

What I said is true.
I was referring to true love.

Right, something you say a homosexual is incapable of. A direct attack on my ability to truly love.

Now, when the homosexual desires for sex with the same gender and seeks to have it realized, then that is a declaration of rebellion against God, the source and author of love.

You simply refuse to see love outside of sexual intimacy. I don’t understand that.

How can one say he loves someone and at the same time he is in rebellion against Love?

Show me how my desire to love someone (ANYONE) is in rebellion against love. Unless, of course, you can’t separate love from sex.

I hope and pray that you would come to understand what is the meaning of true Love

And I will pray that you can see a human beings ability to love without having sex. For me, true love was born on this day and He died on a Cross for you and for me. I know true love because it fills my soul and it’s something I can share. If that makes someone sick, they need to examine themselves not me.

It’s that love that I offer to you and everyone else. Merry Christmas.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Okay, good. I’m still not sure how you “fulfill” physical attraction. At this point, I don’t think it really matters.

In teaching our children we always let them know that it is only OK to fulfill a sexual desire with a sacramental marriage.

Yes, a human beings desire for love and sex can certainly be dangerous. How mine is more dangerous than yours, I’m not sure.

The desire outside of a sacramental marriage is always a near occasion of sin. No matter who you are attracted to.
As to the danger aspect since this relationship between two members of the same gender can not lead into a sacramental marriage then it is the more dangerous of the two as long as everyone involved is not previously married.

What a heartbreaking thing to hear. I guess you nailed it on the head, though. Remember when you said, “Kolbe, please understand. Christians do not attack love.” Yet the love I offer, the love that comes from Christ, makes those men (you?) feel like vomiting. And why? I’ll let you answer that: cause it’s a “homosexual’s love.” Those are your words. But they don’t attack a person’s love, do they.

The emotional ties to one another should never make one “vomit.” But many of us feel quite queasy when the physical acts using body cavities not meant for procreation are used in such ways (homosexual or heterosexual.)

If the love Christ shares through me makes them nauseous, I pity them. Although I pity them, they can vomit until they’re blue cause I won’t stop loving. emotionally or physically?

I love you, agangbern. And I pray that doesn’t make you sick. I won’t be posting again tonight. I’m very tired and very sad.

 

[agangbern]

I didn’t realize that right wasn’t mine. But, since the two are deemed inseperable by you, am I to assume you desire to have sex with every woman you find attractive? Or are the two only inseparable when it applies to me?

Do I need to keep repeating this? We were talking about it particularly in relation to fulfillment with Church consent. And I said there is simply no way for it to find fulfillment with Church consent. And it is particularly in relation to that that the two are inseparable. In reasoning, we don’t apply a particular case to a universal one.
Now, since you really want to know how is “physical attraction” related to the concept of fulfillment, let me tell you. Physical attraction is broad. So, when it is spoken of in relation to fulfillment it is used in its limited sense, that is, in the sense of sexual desire. That is why I said, in it’s use in a particular concept, do not use it in a universal one.
(It is sometimes frustrating spelling out to one who knows rules but pretends not to know them)

Right, something you say a homosexual is incapable of. A direct attack on my ability to truly love.

Did I say that a homosexual is incapable of? You have this habit to put words into my mouth! Do I have to repeat this again just to help you remember what I said? What I said is basically this: When a homosexual seeks ways to have his desire for sex with the same gender realized, then it is blatant declaration of rebellion against God. I did not say that a homosexual is incapable of love! Oh, gosh! Wandering imagination.

You simply refuse to see love outside of sexual intimacy. I don’t understand that.

Here again is a conclusion drawn out from fallacious reasoning. What I declared is that: Sexual intimacy between same genders is a rebellion against Love, because God is Love! And now, you understood reversely what I said! Oh gosh, again!

Show me how my desire to love someone (ANYONE) is in rebellion against love. Unless, of course, you can’t separate love from sex.

Please stop arguing against your own shadow! We are talking here about a homosexual, and not about you! And, as you defined, a homosexual is essentially one who desires love and sex with the same gender. The definition itself does not separate love and sex. What you have joined together, I have no right to put asunder!. And now you accuse me of being unable to separate them? I will separate them if you use the word “or” instead of the word “and” there. Are you going to change your personal definition of homosexual now?

 

[agangbern]

And I will pray that you can see a human beings ability to love without having sex. For me, true love was born on this day and He died on a Cross for you and for me. I know true love because it fills my soul and it’s something I can share. If that makes someone sick, they need to examine themselves not me.

It’s that love that I offer to you and everyone else. Merry Christmas.

And the love that was born this day did not preach that He was a homosexual! His love is not joined with a desire for sex with the same gender. But that of a homosexual, by definition, is always coupled with desire for sex with the same gender. You insist that your love is pure and without desire for sex with the same gender
but at the same time you insist that you are a homosexual. You present yourself as unfit to be called a homosexual because your love you say is without sex and yet you insist to be called a homosexual which be definition is coupled with sex. How do we call a person like that? Seems want to eat his cake and keep it too.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Kolbe;

Why do you label yourself a “gay man”?
Why is there a need to label people by their sexual orientation? Is that what is important about the person?

 

[snowfly]

  I’m never amazed that gay men and women aren’t flooding into the Catholic Church. I pray that someday they will.

They arent dis-allowed.

What I pray for is a time when Catholics can look at the gay community and say, “I can understand why you desire marriage and acceptance.” That kind of empathy goes so much further than repulsion and judgement.
Peace

Gay marriage and acceptance and the Catholic Church don’t go together.

The Catholic Church looks upon marriage as an opportunity to pro-create, a gay couple can’t pro-create, and are abominable in the eyes of God and His Church, the Catholic Church, HELL ISN’T WORT IT.

 

[whatevergirl]

I didn’t realize that right wasn’t mine. But, since the two are deemed inseperable by you, am I to assume you desire to have sex with every woman you find attractive? Or are the two only inseparable when it applies to me?

I view every mortal sin as equally dangerous. Not sure why you don’t, but we can agree to disagree.

Right, something you say a homosexual is incapable of. A direct attack on my ability to truly love.

You simply refuse to see love outside of sexual intimacy. I don’t understand that.

Show me how my desire to love someone (ANYONE) is in rebellion against love. Unless, of course, you can’t separate love from sex.

And I will pray that you can see a human beings ability to love without having sex. For me, true love was born on this day and He died on a Cross for you and for me. I know true love because it fills my soul and it’s something I can share. If that makes someone sick, they need to examine themselves not me.

It’s that love that I offer to you and everyone else. Merry Christmas.

Hi Kolbe;

In revewing some of your replies…I don’t think love is a subjective term. God’s view of love, of course is very different from ours. Ours tends to be conditional, God’s-unconditional, as you know. But, we are to yearn and strive to be more loving, the way God is towards us. That being said, God ‘created’ love to mean more than a desire to be with someone…or to think someone is special over another. In creating love-he designed sex to be both procreative and unitive. Without the two, the sexual bond between two people ceases to be complete. Although a homosexual can have a unitive type of love, in his/her relationship–it will never be able to be procreative, thus, thwarting God’s best for that couple. So, when I view homosexuality, I view it as a couple’s love not being fulfilled in its entirety, and never ever being able to ‘get there,’ so to speak. So, perhaps a homosexual can love another–but it will never be the full, awesome and all encompassing love that God designed for mankind. Love has many meanings these days–but God’s meaning really never changed. That could be helpful into understanding a heterosexual’s view of why a homosexual cannot truly ‘love’ another. It doesn’t mean you are not capable of love–but God didn’t design homosexual ‘love.’

I hope I am making sense.

 

[Kolbe300]

Hi whatevergirl, and thank you for your post. It does make sense, and the way you present it is a breath of fresh air. Here are a few thoughts.

In creating love-he designed sex to be both procreative and unitive. Without the two, the sexual bond between two people ceases to be complete. Although a homosexual can have a unitive type of love, in his/her relationship–it will never be able to be procreative, thus, thwarting God’s best for that couple. So, when I view homosexuality, I view it as a couple’s love not being fulfilled in its entirety, and never ever being able to ‘get there,’ so to speak.

Whatevergirl, I could not have worded that better myself. I absolutely agree. But, somehow, and for reasons I simply can’t seem to understand, the topic always goes back to addressing the subject of sex between a homosexual couple. That is why it is so bothersome for me to hear someone say that the offering of my love (having nothing to do with sex) could make someone feel like vomiting. And that is the heart of the problem. Some people, knowing I’m a homosexual, view me as incapable of true love. Why? Because they refuse to look at me without thinking of the “sex” in my sexuality. That is why I said that some people are so blinded by the sin of the homosexual act (of which I am not committing) that they can’t even see me.

So, perhaps a homosexual can love another–but it will never be the full, awesome and all encompassing love that God designed for mankind.

Right, as long as you are still referring to the SEXUAL love a homosexual offers another. When that homosexual man or woman follows the call of celibacy, they can find the full, awesome, and all encompassing love that God designed for mankind. In his Theology of the Body, John Paul II explains that the fullness of truth and love can be fulfilled through the vocation of marriage AND celibacy. A homosexual is fully capable of knowing true love and of truly loving. True love is not only found in marriage. Does that make sense? I think you and I are on the same page.

That could be helpful into understanding a heterosexual’s view of why a homosexual cannot truly ‘love’ another. It doesn’t mean you are not capable of love–but God didn’t design homosexual ‘love.’

God didn’t design homosexual love. But God left nothing out when He gave me the capacity to love. As soon as people can see beyond my sexuality and into my human dignity, they will realize that. I believe the challenge is for the Christian to be able to look at an active homosexual and realize that person’s dignity and that person’s full capability of sharing as true a love as any human being. They won’t find it in the bedroom, but with our love, patience, empathy, and encouragement, we can help them find it in Christ.

Thank you again for your post. I hope your Christmas was wonderful!

 

[Kolbe300]

Hello everyone,

This has certainly been an interesting and, unfortunately, very painful few days spent here with all of you. I came here quite excited about the opportunity to share with fellow Catholics a perspective they may not have really considered. I truly never expected there to be a debate, especially since I am living the Church’s teachings by practicing celibacy. Instead, it seemed as if I was constantly being challenged. I didn’t understand why until today and the past few posts. I get it now, unfortunately. And it is very apparent that my short testimony in the original post either went unoticed, or meant nothing to many.

The problem, it has become apparent, is simply with the fact that I identify myself as being gay. It could be summed up by agangbern:

“You insist that your love is pure and without desire for sex with the same gender but at the same time you insist that you are a homosexual.”

Everyone asks, “Why do you call yourself gay (homosexual)?” First off, the only people who know I am gay are my family and my closest friends. I don’t wear it like some badge of honor. I owed it to them because for 28 years I pretended to be someone I wasn’t. I pretended to be heterosexual. I pretended to be accepted. I pretended to be happy. I don’t announce my sexuality when I meet someone. I’ve never told my co-workers, for fear of my own safety and my job. I told you here because it was the purpose of my post. I knew that you could never understand, unless you’d been there. I had no idea that many of you wouldn’t even try.

I did not choose my sexual orientation. I have been gay for my entire life, and I have never committed a homosexual act. I prayed, in fear, from the time I was a child for God to change my sexuality. Yet here I am today, still with a homosexual orientation. I don’t care where you think my orientation comes from, I don’t care if you believe one is born with it or not. I simply don’t care. The fact is, no matter where it comes from, I cannot scream it away, I cannot cry it away, I cannot tear it from my soul, and I cannot bear to hear another person ask me why I insist on telling you the truth. You have no idea how painful it is to know that someone sees something so ugly in you that they want you to hide it, to pretend it isn’t there. “Why call yourself ugly, Kolbe? If you don’t call yourself ugly, maybe I won’t think you’re ugly.” What do you suggest I call my sexuality? Should I pretend I don’t have one? Should I pretend that it doesn’t exist? Should I pretend my orientation is homosexual every once in a while? Should I do that for YOU? Should I go back into hiding so you can be comfortable? Is that what you need in order to accept me with “respect, compassion, and sensitivity?” Those being the words from your Catechism.

I reallly hoped I could bring some people to a better understanding of how difficult being gay can be. I know a few have because they were kind enough to send me a message. Many of you have been very loving, always speaking kindly. I thank you so much for that. I will not be visiting here anymore because I can’t sit back and pretend my sexual orientation isn’t what it is for your sake. I will go to my spiritual advisor because he loves me without insisting I hide. I will visit Christ in the Sacraments and in my prayers. He loves me, every inch of me. I don’t hide my heart, I don’t hide my desires, I don’t hide my love, I don’t hide my soul. And you know what? He loves me still and He lightens my cross.

I truly love each and every one of you. I have so much to pray about and to be thankful for. Please pray for the young gay kids in this world. I used to be one of them. They are terrified, they are tormented, and too often they are rejected. Because of my few days here, I have a better understanding of why. If they cannot find God’s love through us, they will find it nowhere. Thank you again to all of those who have been a reflection of Christ.

 

[blessedtoo]

This has certainly been an interesting and, unfortunately, very painful few days spent here with all of you. I came here quite excited about the opportunity to share with fellow Catholics a perspective they may not have really considered. I truly never expected there to be a debate, especially since I am living the Church’s teachings by practicing celibacy. Instead, it seemed as if I was constantly being challenged. I didn’t understand why until today and the past few posts. I get it now, unfortunately. And it is very apparent that my short testimony in the original post either went unoticed, or meant nothing to many.

Kolbe, if you are still hanging around, I would like to suggest you go back and read this whole thread as I just did. Starting with your post. Here is what you said to us in the first paragraph.

1. I am a devout Catholic, a wannabe apologist, and a gay man.
2. I was struck by the number of threads dealing with homosexuality and have spent two days and too many hours looking at different threads on the subject and the subsequent discussions.
3. Because I often times had a near irresistible urge to throw my computer out the window, I’ve decided the best thing I can do is offer some (name removed by moderator)ut.

As the reader, I see a proclamation about one’s sexual orientation, using a label generally associated with homosexual activity. I then proceed to read a criticism about the “number of threads” and their apparently offensive tone that compels you to throw your computer out the window. Then you continue with:

1.I was saddened so much by the enormous lack of empathy and abundance of callousness I saw from many Catholics on this board.

So, according to you, a great number of posters here are “enormously” callous.

2.Fortunately, I believe that much of this is the result of a total lack of understanding.

According to you, we are a bunch of buffoons who are ignorant about homosexuals. We display a TOTAL lack of understanding (does that include any homosexuals who may be on this thread?). We are in desperate need of some direction from you.

1. Unfortunately, that lack of understanding and empathy runs rampant in our society and our Church.

And here you tell us that we are not the only ignorant buffoons, but that there are hordes of us running around in the streets and in the Church. We’re off to a great start, don’t you think?

You asked us to step in your shoes. How about you try on ours?

Everyone who starts a thread wants something from the others on the forum. It seems that you wanted some overt expressions of compassion and “understanding”. IMO, after re-reading this entire thread, you received an abundance of that. Even in spite of the fact that you asked for something you were not willing to give in your OP. You expected to receive “warm tinglies” by baiting the members here with insults, and then resent it when some become defensive. Not one other poster has bailed on this thread. We are willing to continue a discussion with you in order to clarify what I see as misunderstandings. Not one poster has made slanderous statements about homosexuals, alleging their lack of compassion or callousness. So I am wondering what has been said here to make you retreat.