I wonder a lot. What's your opinion?

[Sir_Knight]

BLB_Oregon:

Let me get this straight:

1. Man confesses homosexual thoughts to priest.
2. Priest gets an inspiration that the man’s mother has let a sin separate her from the Church… in fact, he gets an inspiration so specific in its detail that, had it really happened in the absence of subconscious or otherwise subtle clues given by the man and picked up by a perceptive priest, it might be termed miraculous.
3. Man’s mother confesses and is re-united with the Church.
4. The man at the same time is freed from homosexual thoughts.

There is a saying for something like this: True, true, and unrelated. That a mom’s long-standing spiritual fault would have some bearing on her son’s spiritual upbringing: possible, maybe even likely. That her conversion back to the Church was extremely inspiring and a source of grace for her son: more possible yet. That his sin’s origins were genetic? Oh, please. There is just no logical reason to make a leap like that. In fact, leaps like that are how silly superstitions get started, and they carry spiritual perils themselves.

Sin causes all sorts of damage, that is true, but this connection is far-fetched to the extent that it is almost a perversion of rational thought.

If you want to doubt the Word of God (Exodus 20:5), then you thread on very shakey ground because how can you know what is true and what isn’t? Once you disbelieve one thing, then everything else falls into doubt.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Sir Knight:

If you want to doubt the Word of God (Exodus 20:5), then you thread on very shakey ground because how can you know what is true and what isn’t? Once you disbelieve one thing, then everything else falls into doubt.

I mean no disrespect, but doubting the Word of God and doubting that you have interpreted it correctly are hardly the same thing.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Okay, tell me what you think this means …

… I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments – Exodus 20:5-6

… seems pretty clear and straight forward to me. And here are some additional passages which seem to indicate that children will be punished for the sins of their parents …

• Gen.9:21-25
  “And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father … And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan [Ham’s son]; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”
• Dt.5:9
  “I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.”
• Ex.34:7
  “Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children unto the third and to the fourth generation.”
• Num.14:18
  “Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.”
• Dt.23:2
  “A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.”
• Dt.28:18
  “Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body.”
• 2 Sam.12:14
  “The child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.”
• 2 Sam.21:6-9
  Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD … And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD."
• 1 Kg.2:33
  “Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever.”
• 1 Kg.21:29
  “Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son’s days will I bring the evil upon his house.”
• 2 Kg.5:27
  “The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever.”
• Is.14:21
  “Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.”
• Jer.16:10-11
  “Wherefore hath the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? … Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the Lord.”
• Jer.29:32
  “Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed.”
• Jer.32:18
  “Thou … recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them.”

 

[khkhk]

Podo2004:

Very Well Said Sarah
Podo

Thank You!:tiphat:

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Sir Knight:

Okay, tell me what you think this means … … seems pretty clear and straight forward to me. And here are some additional passages which seem to indicate that children will be punished for the sins of their parents …

But you see, you’ve just assumed that when a family suffers from something generation after generation that the mechanism of transmission is genetic. Why do you make that assumption?

Your family for instance, may have been Catholic for the last 15 generations. Do you think the DNA changed along the way? I hope not. But that is how subtly people slip their assumptions into their interpretation of Scripture.

If you doubt me, consider for a moment why it is so difficult to introduce animals born into captivity into the wild. Cubs learn to hunt from their moms. Even in nature, DNA isn’t the only game in town.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I didn’t say ANYTHING about genetics. The thought never even entered my mind. All I did was provide scripture passages which would seem to indicate that offsprings are indeeded punished by God for the sins of their parents. The passages which I have quoted seem pretty clear to me. Even one should be sufficient but I’ve provided dozens of them. If you disagree with me, you are welcome to do so but I ask you to explain what you think those passages mean if in your opinion they do not mean what I think that they mean.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Sir Knight:

I didn’t say ANYTHING about genetics. The thought never even entered my mind. All I did was provide scripture passages which would seem to indicate that offsprings are indeeded punished by God for the sins of their parents. The passages which I have quoted seem pretty clear to me. Even one should be sufficient but I’ve provided dozens of them. If you disagree with me, you are welcome to do so but I ask you to explain what you think those passages mean if in your opinion they do not mean what I think that they mean.

But you were originally replying to my quote where I was refuting the specific contention that the passing down of sin could be genetic. I said clearly that the mother’s life could very well have an influence on her son’s. It was the idea that the mechanism was genetic that I had a problem with. So what was it about my original post that set you off in the first place?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Nothing ‘set me off’. I’m merely having a discussion with you on an internet discussion board. Binary Paul made the comment that " … scripture states that the sins of the father can be passed down to the second and third generation … ". You seemed to disagree with that point. I am merely providing multiple scripture passages which seem to support that original position. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Sir Knight:

Nothing ‘set me off’. I’m merely having a discussion with you on an internet discussion board. Binary Paul made the comment that " … scripture states that the sins of the father can be passed down to the second and third generation … ". You seemed to disagree with that point. I am merely providing multiple scripture passages which seem to support that original position. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Aha. No, I was disagreeing with the person who asked specifically if the process was genetic. Absolutely, the wounding gets passed on and on. It’s like when my kids tell me they hit each other because they were hit first, and I ask, “But then he hits you back again, and where does it stop?” Not stopping is the natural order of things, stopping the supernatural order.

 

[DARichards]

Okay so im young…Don’t bash me i just wanna hear others opinions. I respect everyones opinion. Why does the church not believe in Gay Marriages. I mean if your gay you should be entitled to your rights. My catechism teacher says God has a plan for you…then maybe thats how your suppose to be and you can change that…you are what you are. i’m catholic, but when you believe something that is “immoral” you can’t be a “semi-catholic” and believe some stuff but not others as my catechism teacher told us. You know im all for gay marriages and i have friends who want there rights. There was even a “voting as a Catholic” pamphlet at church. Im like what the heck? It said you should vote for a candidate who is against all that “immoral” stuff…So Basically it was Saying “Vote for Bush” and i heard on the news nearly 80% were voting were moral based. One religion can’t be put on millions of people. They have different beliefs and shouldn’t have to abide by anyone elses. The church shouldn’t tell us who to vote for and it’s a sin to vote for the wrong president. Im 3 years too young to vote, but i would have voted on Kerry. Yea probably people reading this would go oh she’s only 15…she knows nothing…thanks for reading and i hope to hear some responses.

Rocksta,

I can sympathize with how you feel for other peoples rights. After all we are a free nation and we should all be able to fulfill our rights and desires, right? The only problem with that is that as Christians, we are very clearly taught that we are not our own and we have been bought with the price of Christ’s blood. In response to that we as Christians and as Catholics have an obligation to submit every area of our life to the Lordship of Christ and what he has established in his absense—the Church.

There are many things that we don’t understand about this issue—for example, why people are born with homosexual desires. What we do acknowledge is that we cannot change peoples desires and how they feel. The attraction to the same sex is not a sin in and of itself. That is something that we cannot change. What we can change is what we do with that desire. You see, we have been taught in the Western culture that our lives are all about us: our lives, our rights, our happiness…What we DO know is that God’s main concern for us is not our happiness, but rather our lives to be reconciled to him through the Cross of Christ. This means total submission to Him and His laws. As hard as I imagine it can be, as Catholics we are to take those areas of our lives as a Cross of suffering in the same way that Christ bore his cross for us. The rewards will be endless.

Further, the act of marriage in our culture has been reduced from the “sealing of a covenant” to an act that makes us feel good, or something that two people who love each other partake in. Until we realize that our act of marriage is a sealing of that Sacrament and what God has established, it will be very hard to understand why gay marriage is not and will not be blessed by the Church.

In regard to the voters guides in the Church, the church’s job is to speak the truth to the Body of Christ and also to inform us which candidates will stand for life and morality.

I don’t think the Church was saying vote for Bush so to speak, because there are many issues on which the Church doesn’t agree with our Adminisration, but we have to deal with the best options that we have.