I wonder if Jesus died on a .....

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fireandflames said:
The bible? I dont know what that other thing was
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“The Lamb’s Supper” is a book by Biblical scholar Scott Hahn that provides an explanation of the Mass and the veneration of the saints through Biblical study. In other words, it’s a book that helps interpret the Bible.
 
I provided some of the relevant Biblical quotes that he discusses to look up in the post above…
 
Thanks for that but im really interested in a verse or verses that tells us to use images to help us in our worship, please.
 
From ScriptureCatholic.com

Here are some to start:

I. Images and Statues

Deut. 4:15 - from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 - of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”

Deut. 4:17-19 - hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 - God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 - it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 - David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 - the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 - Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.
 
From all your references Either Jehovah God himself said to make them or ones whom he appointed. The tabernacle had such things but again God told them to do thi. Since we no longer have God speaking with us it only makes sense to avoid all forms of idolitatry in order to be careful to not drift into worshiping them.
 
fireandflames said:
From all your references Either Jehovah God himself said to make them or ones whom he appointed. The tabernacle had such things but again God told them to do thi. Since we no longer have God speaking with us it only makes sense to avoid all forms of idolitatry in order to be careful to not drift into worshiping them.
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This is a primary difference between Catholics/Orthodox and Protestants. Protestants generally believe that if it’s not specifically spelled out in the Bible, it is to be expressly avoided. Catholics/Orthodox believe that if a practice does not directly contradict the Bible, AND dates to the early church, then it is clearly acceptable. (The key is that both conditions must be satisfied, which they are in this case.)
 
Hey thanks for the chat. We dont agree but atleast we had a chance to discuss.
 
fireandflames said:
Hey thanks for the chat. We dont agree but atleast we had a chance to discuss.
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You’re welcome. I guess the most important thing that we’d like to get across is that we DO have theological reasons for using images. Even if the outside perception is that we are flirting with idolatry, Catholics and the Orthodox want to make it clear that we worship NO ONE… not the saints, not Mary, not ANYONE but God. We do venerate saints,ask them to pray FOR us and WITH us, and treat them as role models, much like someone would go to the NFL Hall of Fame and admire our great sports heroes, but it’s very clear to us that they are NOT to be worshiped as gods!

The Orthodox perspective on this is very interesting. They use no almost no religious images EXCEPT icons, which are full of symbolism (so that people can learn about the faith) and are deliberately made to look unrealistic, so that people clearly recognize that it is not the object that we are worshiping. They are encouraged to think of icons as “windows into heaven”. The frame of the icon is literally like an open window, and the image is “perceived” as heaven on the other side. The mental difference is heavily emphasized.
 
fireandflames said:
Thanks for that but im really interested in a verse or verses that tells us to use images to help us in our worship, please.
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Will you give a verse or verses that tell (not “tells”) us to use computers?

Will you give a verse or verses that tell us to use hymnals?

Will you give us a verse or verses that tell us to have revivals?

Will you give us a verse or verses that tell us to have invitation hymns and altar calls?
 
geometer said:
No they would have survived as well as jews always have…
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You’re probably right… but there’s no way to know for sure. If the West hadn’t had Charles Martel, an educated Christian leader, the Muslims might have won the Battle of Tours. Once France was captured, they likely would have overrun Italy and killed the pope. With Western Christianity in disarray, and with no educated people to continue it’s spread, they would have turned to the East, where the Byzantine Empire would have been surrounded…
 
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