"I would be devastated if my child didn't stay Catholic!"

[shelby_sun]

Brace yourself Lil_Ca,t here come Mary.

 

[EasterJoy]

If by treasure you mean a physical item, than no I would not weep, because we need no physical item for our faith, and because we take no physical item with us if we are blessed enough to go to God when we die.

As for all the other, I have a brother who has not been a part of the Catholic Church for many years, yet he has been a devote protestant since than. At first it start to tear my family apart, especially his relationship with my mother. As we were not raised or every head in our Catholic schools that protestants were not going be saved, my mother finally realized his devotion to the same God we have, and “let go and let God”. There are to many people that need help than for her to dwell on something that was actually very good for him.

I am sorry you feel the way you do. Why, if you are right, would the Catholic church ever allow a member of the Catholic church to marry someone outside the Catholic Church, as they do regularly these days. My brother is not suffering, and has actually thrived as a good Christian person.

I am not sure what you mean by “if I am right.” That other denominations have valid baptism does not mean they are in all respects valid alternatives to the Catholic faith. This is taught by the Church in the document I cited.

Keep in mind, too, that while Catholics who are free to marry have the right to marry each other, they marry outside the faith only with permission. This is how canon law reads:

*Can. 1124 Without express permission of the competent authority, a marriage is prohibited between two baptized persons of whom one is baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is enrolled in a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:

1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;

2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;

3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.*

Your brother is depriving himself of the sacraments, and that truly is a loss, whether he is sensible of it or not. (Do not forget–I have left and come back. I know the difference between “out there” and “back in the fold.”) That is not to say the Holy Spirit cannot operate in other communities of the baptized. It is to say that a Christian objectively suffers a substantial loss when they leave the Church. Yes, at some point a parent has to put their emotions aside in order to have a relationship with their child, but to say it is “a little disappointing” grossly underestimates what any of us loses when we leave. That is what I mean.

 

[pianistclare]

Yes, the thought that my children – those unique and unrepeatable existences whom I have been blessed and priviliged to participate in the creation of – would spend eternity in hell in complete separation from God is somewhat disconcerting to me.

We all want what’s best for our children, no? What is better than eternal beatitude with God in heaven?

Certainly, we hold out hope for the salvation of all, but the only sure path to salvation that I know is a living relationship with Christ in the Catholic Church. So that’s where I want my children to end up.

Very well stated, Joe. Thanks!

 

[EasterJoy]

No I suspect you would be devestated.

Perhaps they mean there is a time to put devastation aside in order to be a better parent AND a better evangelist. If that is the point, I have to agree with that. Yes, of course you want them back, but there are times when indulging in hysterics (as some parents do) will not help the child towards a return. Relational aggression is also counter-indicated as a cure. People who may not receive the sacraments worthily are denied the sacraments not as a punishment, after all, but to prevent scandal, sacrilege and further damage to their own souls.

As Steven Covey put it, “the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.”

 

[shelby_sun]

I am not sure what you mean by “if I am right.” That other denominations have valid baptism does not mean they are in all respects valid alternatives to the Catholic faith. This is taught by the Church in the document I cited.

Keep in mind, too, that while Catholics who are free to marry have the right to marry each other, they marry outside the faith only with permission. This is how canon law reads:

*Can. 1124 Without express permission of the competent authority, a marriage is prohibited between two baptized persons of whom one is baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is enrolled in a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:

1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;

2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;

3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.*

Your brother is depriving himself of the sacraments, and that truly is a loss, whether he is sensible of it or not. (Do not forget–I have left and come back. I know the difference between “out there” and “back in the fold.”) That is not to say the Holy Spirit cannot operate in other communities of the baptized. It is to say that a Christian objectively suffers a substantial loss when they leave the Church. Yes, at some point a parent has to put their emotions aside in order to have a relationship with their child, but to say it is “a little disappointing” grossly underestimates what any of us loses when we leave. That is what I mean.

I am sorry I did not word it as you would. What is devastating to me are children being raping, women being sold into slavery, children (or anyone) suffering and dying of cancer, people being killed by drunk drivers and texting, the elderly that have no one to care for them, the list can go on.

When my children are adults if they do not chose to stay in the Catholic church that is between them and God, one’s soul always comes down to being between them and God, no one else. I can only teach them and tell them how I feel, but they have a right as a human being to their own life. I would continue to pray for them and for God to guide them. Like I said I have faith me God’s plans for all his children on this earth, whether they realize they are his children or not.

 

[shelby_sun]

I have said this on another post, never in twelve year of Catholic school or 20 years working at a Catholic high school we were never taught Catholic were the only ones going to be saved. I am not sure what parts of the world you live in but that is just not taught in our Catholic community. We believe God is bigger than that and capable of anything HE sees fit in the end.

 

[PaulinVA]

I have said this on another post, never in twelve year of Catholic school or 20 years working at a Catholic high school we were never taught Catholic were the only ones going to be saved. I am not sure what parts of the world you live in but that is just not taught in our Catholic community. We believe God is bigger than that and capable of anything HE sees fit in the end.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

One of the most misunderstood teachings of the Catholic Church is this one:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation” (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

Those trying to grasp the meaning of this teaching often struggle with its formulations by various Church Fathers and Church Councils down through history. Of course, to understand an isolated formulation of any Church teaching, one must study the historical context within which it was written: why it was written, what was going on in the Church at the time, who the intended audience was, and so on. One must discover how the magisterium (teaching office) of the Church understands its own teaching. If someone fails to do this and chooses, rather, to simply treat a particular formulation as a stand-alone teaching, he runs the risk of seriously misunderstanding it.

In recent times, the Church has recognized that its teaching about the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation has been widely misunderstood, so it has “re-formulated” this teaching in a positive way. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address this topic: “How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).

 

[shelby_sun]

catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

One of the most misunderstood teachings of the Catholic Church is this one:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation” (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

Those trying to grasp the meaning of this teaching often struggle with its formulations by various Church Fathers and Church Councils down through history. Of course, to understand an isolated formulation of any Church teaching, one must study the historical context within which it was written: why it was written, what was going on in the Church at the time, who the intended audience was, and so on. One must discover how the magisterium (teaching office) of the Church understands its own teaching. If someone fails to do this and chooses, rather, to simply treat a particular formulation as a stand-alone teaching, he runs the risk of seriously misunderstanding it.

In recent times, the Church has recognized that its teaching about the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation has been widely misunderstood, so it has “re-formulated” this teaching in a positive way. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address this topic: “How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).

Is Christ not the Head of the Protestant Church? We were taught that those who believe in the Trinity with Christ as the Savior sent by God is the way to salvation. By we didn’t get into focusing on condemning other to hell.

 

[edwest2]

The Devil is a reality and so is Hell.

theguardian.com/world/2007/mar/27/catholicism.religion

When we die, there will be a judgement.

biblecc.com/hebrews/9-27.htm

Peace,
Ed

 

[EasterJoy]

I am sorry I did not word it as you would. What is devastating to me are children being raping, women being sold into slavery, children (or anyone) suffering and dying of cancer, people being killed by drunk drivers and texting, the elderly that have no one to care for them, the list can go on.

When my children are adults if they do not chose to stay in the Catholic church that is between them and God, one’s soul always comes down to being between them and God, no one else. I can only teach them and tell them how I feel, but they have a right as a human being to their own life. I would continue to pray for them and for God to guide them. Like I said I have faith me God’s plans for all his children on this earth, whether they realize they are his children or not.

“I make a Holy Hour each day in the presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. All my sisters of the Missionaries of Charity make a daily Holy Hour as well, because we find that through our daily Holy Hour our love for Jesus becomes more intimate, our love for each other more understanding, and our love for the poor more compassionate… In 1963, we were making a weekly Holy Hour together, but it was not until 1973, when we began our daily Holy Hour, that our community started to grow and blossom.” --Mother Teresa of Calcutta

We are not our own, but belong to Christ. The Eucharist is the source and summit of our Christian life. To lose sight of that truth–and sir, I have done it myself!–is to lose our very lives. You recognize it is a tragedy when children turn their backs on their elders and on their families. Do you not see what it is to turn our backs on the call to enter into the Lord’s death and resurrection, to refuse our seat at the wedding feast of the Lamb?

I have left the Church and come back. I know now what I, in my foolishness, I had chosen for myself by leaving, what I had turned my back on. Knowing that, I would be the most cold-hearted of mothers if I were not deeply saddened and stung into a life of prayer and penance, if one of my children were to do what I did.

God has a plan, God looks out for fools and little children, but to wander from the bosom of the Church is a *hazardous *wandering. Do you know how many of us have the prayers of our mothers to thank for our reclamation? Do not be content to let it be “between them and God,” then, if your child defects from the faith. If your child leaves the Church, pound on the gates of heaven on their behalf!

 

[Lil_Cat]

All Catholic parents should live out the promises made at the time of infant Baptism. The child (children) will be raised Catholic. This will require a good example being set by both parents. Take them to Mass when they’re young. Be good role models to them every day. No, not everyone is perfect but marriage has its ups and downs. Sometimes, dealing with your spouse and your kids can be stressful. Give them rules to follow regarding their behavior at home: like how to deal with their siblings, fairness and doing chores. And guidance about how to deal with problems at school. Just let them know you care and want to hear about anything that’s bothering them.

As they are growing, be prepared for questions. Questions about relationships and other things on their minds. Watch what they do and follow what they become interested in. Ask them about homework and how things are going in school. Things might be fine for a while, but be prepared for “I got into a fight” or hearing about being bullied.

What I find disturbing is the idea that some parents consider their children adults and out of their hands when they turn 18. Your children are still family when they become adults. You are still their parents. It might turn out that after they leave home, they may want to come back because they lost their job. Not uncommon.

You should tell them you are still available even after they start their own families, for advice or other help. Bottom line: You and your spouse shaped your kids on their way to becoming adults. Both of you were a big part of their lives. That should not end after they get married and have kids of their own. Catholic families generally beget Catholic families, and there are aunts, uncles, in-laws and other relatives that should be part of it.

And one really big problem regarding dating and marriage is a lack of dialogue between both families. Too often, boy meets girl, he’s hot, she’s hot, let’s hop in the sack, live together - gotta have a test drive - and then get married – maybe. Mom or dad need to sit their young adult down and ask them the practical questions: "Where will you live? How will you support each other? Do you have reliable transportation? Have you saved any money so if the car breaks down or one of you gets ill, you’re not paying 18% interest to pay the bills? Then tell them they should talk to a priest. Why? Because, too often, after the ceremony, one or both realize they married a total stranger. After all the fun and sex, they didn’t even try to find out if they were really compatible people. "Oh my God! My husband is a total jerk, a drunk, inconsiderate, wants to spend most of his free time with his buddies and not include me, or ‘doesn’t want to hear it’ when I had a bad day at work, and does not know how to have an intelligent argument that does not involve calling me names.

Fact: The majority of people who live together before marriage end up getting divorced. Marriage is not to be entered lightly. It’s a commitment.

As Catholics, we should prepare our children for life so they can do their best and avoid making mistakes to the best of our ability. Divorce, in most cases, does not ‘just happen.’ Instead of “Hello, mom? Me and Janet are getting divorced” followed by, “Well, it’s your decision - whatever.” It should be a case where your son or daughter or even daughter-in-law can call you and ask for advice to help both of them avoid divorce.

I heard a priest on Catholic Radio talk about his wild youth. How he stole things, got into trouble with the law, insulted his parents, and his mother prayed for him. She put her trust in God and his father stood with her. Then, their prayers were answered. By the grace of God he woke up one day and saw that the way he was going was wrong. It led to nothing good and he cried and cried. He asked for forgiveness. Then he was led to the Church and then, became a priest. He still has his tattoos.

Your children do have free will but it is your responsibility to raise them as Catholics and be there for them during their formative years, guiding them and modeling good behavior. Yes, they may give that up and decide not to be Catholic anymore later on. But that means you should pray for them. Other mothers and fathers have turned to God in those cases. That is the right thing to do. To trust in God. Their souls are at stake.

God bless,
Ed

Interestingly enough, I agree with everything you said, down to asking them about the nitty gritty details of HOW they are going to work out being an adult. Do your best then pray for the best, but at the end of the day God wants our children in heaven more than we do! At the same time, he loves us enough to give us free will. How is respecting that a bad thing? <— that question was not directed at your post, just a general observation.

 

[EasterJoy]

I have said this on another post, never in twelve year of Catholic school or 20 years working at a Catholic high school we were never taught Catholic were the only ones going to be saved. I am not sure what parts of the world you live in but that is just not taught in our Catholic community. We believe God is bigger than that and capable of anything HE sees fit in the end.

There is no contradiction between saying that the Church is necessary for salvation and that God has ways to bring souls to himself that are known to himself alone:

*From what has been stated above, some points follow that are necessary for theological reflection as it explores the relationship of the Church and the other religions to salvation.

Above all else, it must be firmly believed that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation.78

The Church is the universal sacrament of salvation,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit.82 *–Dominus Iesus

Can those who leave the Church be saved? Yes. Can someone who chain-smokes for a lifetime live to be 95? Yes. Is taking up the habit of chain-smoking a good way to get to be 95? No. Just so, leaving the Church is not the way to eternal life.

 

[Lil_Cat]

Really?
If your faith tells you that your child’s eternal life
depends on not rejecting his baptism, how can you
NOT be devastated if you love your child?
No parent who loves their child or anyone else
is indifferent in the face of that person’s damnation.

You know if your kid grows up to 21, completely adult
and with his free will drives drunk and kills himself?
Will you say oh well he had free will, he’s not an
extension of me, not my problem?
No I suspect you would be devestated.

If my child grew up to be 21 and drove drunk and killed themselves, then yes, that was a choice they made. They CHOSE to do something the law and their parents had warned them about numerous times. At some point they WILL do what they want and there is nothing I can do about it. I will be sad, sure, but it was their decision. I would pray for their soul but if I had done everything I could to raise them to be faithful Catholics and they reject it what am I supposed to do? Wallow for years on end, or accept that God gave us free will because He loved us so much - why can’t I extend that to my child without my love for them being questioned?

And seriously? Of course I love and want what’s best for my child, but they have to cooperate with what they have been taught. Again, free will.

 

[Lil_Cat]

I am sorry I did not word it as you would. What is devastating to me are children being raping, women being sold into slavery, children (or anyone) suffering and dying of cancer, people being killed by drunk drivers and texting, the elderly that have no one to care for them, the list can go on.

When my children are adults if they do not chose to stay in the Catholic church that is between them and God, one’s soul always comes down to being between them and God, no one else. I can only teach them and tell them how I feel, but they have a right as a human being to their own life. I would continue to pray for them and for God to guide them. Like I said I have faith me God’s plans for all his children on this earth, whether they realize they are his children or not.

Bingo!!

 

[Miss_Felicity]

I didn’t read all of the responses, but I don’t understand this either. I think this is something converts (generally) will wrestle with. I am not cradle Catholic, my mother supported me every step of the way through RCIA, and still attends Easter Vigil with me every year, I occasionally attend service with her and my dad. I know how much having supportive, parents meant to me in my faith journey so why would I deny my kids that. A good friend of mine is Quaker and her mom was a convert to Catholicism and there were no problems because of mutual respect, and understanding. I find that beautiful. We are each given ONE life. While it is a parents job to guide and mold, it is not to control their children’s life after adulthood.

 

[marywarfield]

If my child grew up to be 21 and drove drunk and killed themselves, then yes, that was a choice they made. They CHOSE to do something the law and their parents had warned them about numerous times. At some point they WILL do what they want and there is nothing I can do about it. I will be sad, sure, but it was their decision. I would pray for their soul but if I had done everything I could to raise them to be faithful Catholics and they reject it what am I supposed to do? Wallow for years on end, or accept that God gave us free will because He loved us so much - why can’t I extend that to my child without my love for them being questioned?

And seriously? Of course I love and want what’s best for my child, but they have to cooperate with what they have been taught. Again, free will.

Then why if you understand the love for a child would you question those
who lost a child about being “devestated”? What are they supposed to be?
Objective? Whether lost to hell or to a drunk driver the loss of
one’s child IS devastating. Nothing worse actually.

 

[edwest2]

I didn’t read all of the responses, but I don’t understand this either. I think this is something converts (generally) will wrestle with. I am not cradle Catholic, my mother supported me every step of the way through RCIA, and still attends Easter Vigil with me every year, I occasionally attend service with her and my dad. I know how much having supportive, parents meant to me in my faith journey so why would I deny my kids that. A good friend of mine is Quaker and her mom was a convert to Catholicism and there were no problems because of mutual respect, and understanding. I find that beautiful. We are each given ONE life. While it is a parents job to guide and mold, it is not to control their children’s life after adulthood.

I cannot understand this “control” idea. While I, and my friends were growing up, we knew our parents loved us. They cared for us when we were sick, made food for us, etc. We were a family - a loving family. By the the time I was 18, I agreed with 95% of what my parents taught me. By the time I was 25, it was 99%. No one is perfect, but to assume, like in a series of bad movies and TV shows, that your parents - all parents - will mutate into weird control freaks and your in-laws are just a pain is mostly Hollywood fiction.

Knowing that. Be a family for life. Not until the law declares some kid an adult when he turns 18. Good, meaningful relationships require honest communications and trust - not fear. That’s what’s wrong with dating and marriage today – this assumption that one is out to control the other. If you feel that, find someone you can trust and be honest with. That is a problem that is not solved by fear.

God bless,
Ed

 

[EasterJoy]

If my child grew up to be 21 and drove drunk and killed themselves, then yes, that was a choice they made. They CHOSE to do something the law and their parents had warned them about numerous times. At some point they WILL do what they want and there is nothing I can do about it. I will be sad, sure, but it was their decision. I would pray for their soul but if I had done everything I could to raise them to be faithful Catholics and they reject it what am I supposed to do? Wallow for years on end, or accept that God gave us free will because He loved us so much - why can’t I extend that to my child without my love for them being questioned?

And seriously? Of course I love and want what’s best for my child, but they have to cooperate with what they have been taught. Again, free will.

Maybe we need to be a bit more clear on what we mean by “devastated”.

No matter what bad thing happens, whether by accident or by fault, it does not do any good to get hysterical about it. It does not do to punish other people with one’s grief, whether directly or indirectly. Bad things that are done and not repented of may show (in some cases, such as addiction) that the person cannot be trusted, but it is not an excuse for relational aggression, such as the silent treatment, nagging, trying to make the person ashamed, and so on. So if any of those things are what someone means by “devastated,” then no, it is not right to let this be so devastating as that.

OTOH, to renounce the Catholic faith isn’t a mere life direction choice that some may rightly make while others might rightly do otherwise, like deciding not to accept a four-year scholarship to an Ivy League school or not playing football even though you are clearly better than anyone in the family has ever been or breaking up with a boyfriend or girlfriend that everyone else can see is great for you. It isn’t like moving away to a different state or any of many other decisions that others in your family may feel strongly about but know that they may not make for you.

To renounce the Catholic faith is to renounce truth and life itself. The Mass is not a mere ritual, nor is it like any other observance of a holy seventh day. It is a transcendent reality by which we have an encounter with God that is the most truly real encounter possible–not as if other encounters are not real, but of a reality that is par excellence.

The Church, when she allows bishops to give dispensations to marry outside the faith, charges her bishops that under all circumstances “the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church” (from Can. 1125)

There is a reason for that. They care, and they care very, very deeply. They hope and pray that none of their flock will ever defect and that all the baptized who have defected will come back. We should, too, but particularly if they are our own children.

 

[Lil_Cat]

I cannot understand this “control” idea. While I, and my friends were growing up, we knew our parents loved us. They cared for us when we were sick, made food for us, etc. We were a family - a loving family. By the the time I was 18, I agreed with 95% of what my parents taught me. By the time I was 25, it was 99%. No one is perfect, but to assume, like in a series of bad movies and TV shows, that your parents - all parents - will mutate into weird control freaks and your in-laws are just a pain is mostly Hollywood

My parents believe in contraception, double predestination, that communion is just a symbol, that baptism is just a symbol (and can be done multiple times to the same person), and that debt is just a fact of life. DH and I believe the complete opposite of all of these.

Of course my parents loved me, but to believe 99% of what they believe would send me to hell, especially now that I know better.

Be careful painting all parents with a broad brush. I have been around here long enough to know your views about Hollywood, but it’s not all media.

 

[Lil_Cat]

Then why if you understand the love for a child would you question those
who lost a child about being “devestated”? What are they supposed to be?
Objective? Whether lost to hell or to a drunk driver the loss of
one’s child IS devastating. Nothing worse actually.

Maybe because its not my responsibility to make sure they get to heaven. Its my responsibility to get myself to heaven and to help my spouse get to heaven. I can teach them what I know, but then that pesky free will comes in