"I would be devastated if my child didn't stay Catholic!"

[marywarfield]

Maybe because its not my responsibility to make sure they get to heaven. Its my responsibility to get myself to heaven and to help my spouse get to heaven. I can teach them what I know, but then that pesky free will comes in

Idk. Even Jesus wept at the news of his friend
Lazarus’ death. People get “devestated” due to humanness.
Responsibility, free will, control? These are not issues
when it comes to grief. Grief is just grief and frequently
devastating.

 

[laircy]

Would someone be devastated if something bad physically happened to their children?

Probably.

Why should they not be devastated if something bad spiritually happened to them?

Isn’t that even worse?

I don’t understand the endless assertion of free will going on here.

Yes, free will exists, but that isn’t an excuse to look down on parents for simply wanting the best for their children, truly the best, for eternity and not just now, and expressing sorrow when that looks like it’s not happening. The whole “not my responsibility” sounds like a lack of care, to me.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Knowing that. Be a family for life. Not until the law declares some kid an adult when he turns 18. Good, meaningful relationships require honest communications and trust - not fear. That’s what’s wrong with dating and marriage today – this assumption that one is out to control the other. If you feel that, find someone you can trust and be honest with. That is a problem that is not solved by fear.

God bless,
Ed

I think thats my point, I have a very close relationship with my parents, and while my mother and I do disagree on some points of view, I agree with her on far more. Even when there is disagreement there is respect, love and understanding. Often in things like religion, this concept of devastation is used as manipulation. How often do we see threads of CAF by someone whose parent(s) would be devastated if they did X, even X will make them happy and their adult mind and heart is clear about it. At what point do we acknowledge that an adult is in control of their own life and they are not bound to make choices based on what will and wont make their parents happy.

 

[marywarfield]

I think thats my point, I have a very close relationship with my parents, and while my mother and I do disagree on some points of view, I agree with her on far more. Even when there is disagreement there is respect, love and understanding. Often in things like religion, this concept of devastation is used as manipulation. How often do we see threads of CAF by someone whose parent(s) would be devastated if they did X, even X will make them happy and their adult mind and heart is clear about it. At what point do we acknowledge that an adult is in control of their own life and they are not bound to make choices based on what will and wont make their parents happy.

Ah you know what? It’s not about making parents happy.
I have two adult children both married both devoutly
Catholic now.
But still as I get older I worry something will happen
when I’m dead and gone.
We had a term in my day no one says much anymore-
final perseverance.
Everyday in my Rosary one of my intentions is that
my children will have the grace of final perseverance.

I don’t do that because I deny they are adults with
free will. I do that because I KNOW they are adults
with free will.

Quite frankly I am more and more finding the
OPs hypothesis bogus.

 

[Joan92]

If you ever told your children that you “would not be devasted if they left the Catholic Church” …guess what, you opened the door and helped them to leave.

Lord have mercy.

 

[Lil_Cat]

Quite frankly I am more and more finding the
OPs hypothesis bogus.

It’s cool - we don’t have to agree.

 

[Lil_Cat]

I think thats my point, I have a very close relationship with my parents, and while my mother and I do disagree on some points of view, I agree with her on far more. Even when there is disagreement there is respect, love and understanding. Often in things like religion, this concept of devastation is used as manipulation. How often do we see threads of CAF by someone whose parent(s) would be devastated if they did X, even X will make them happy and their adult mind and heart is clear about it. At what point do we acknowledge that an adult is in control of their own life and they are not bound to make choices based on what will and wont make their parents happy.

I think you said it better than I did. This is exactly what I am getting at.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

If you ever told your children that you “would not be devasted if they left the Catholic Church” …guess what, you opened the door and helped them to leave.

Lord have mercy.

…Or you ingrained in them that they are to do things for the sake of your feelings, not their heart.

 

[edwest2]

My parents believe in contraception, double predestination, that communion is just a symbol, that baptism is just a symbol (and can be done multiple times to the same person), and that debt is just a fact of life. DH and I believe the complete opposite of all of these.

Of course my parents loved me, but to believe 99% of what they believe would send me to hell, especially now that I know better.

Be careful painting all parents with a broad brush. I have been around here long enough to know your views about Hollywood, but it’s not all media.

On the contrary, it’s mostly media. Repeat the same lies for decades and eventually, the media gospel replaces the Real Gospel. We meditate more on the media than anything said in the Bible and what’s taught by the Church.

I’m very glad for you and your husband. Pray for your parents. In the meantime, the plain facts are these. Many young adults, even if raised Catholic or just attended a Catholic school, will stop going to Mass after they turn 18 or 21. Fact: the divorce rate for Christians is about equal to that of secularists. The media reinforces false living daily. The words of the Pope and the Church in general often get twisted. In a recent survey, people who claimed no religious affiliation were asked why. The reply was that religion was ‘too restrictive.’

And the Centers for Disease Control will tell you that Sexually Transmitted Diseases are at epidemic levels. Sex and money have replaced true love, trust and commitment. It encourages ‘radical individualism.’ Satisfying yourself is first - everything is disposable, and it was designed that way: abortion, No-Fault Divorce, hook-ups with whoever. Cohabitation. They are praised as average, normal and “Hey. What’s the big deal?”

Without standards then anything short of murder is acceptable. Without standards, it’s every man or woman going in all different directions at the same time. That’s why some Catholic parents are home-schooling.

Pope Benedict:

“If we cannot have common values, common truths, sufficient communication on the essentials of human life–how to live how to respond to the great challenges of human life–then true society becomes impossible.”

God can change all this. He can help us undo the rupture of the last 40 years. The plans of idiots who tried to fix what wasn’t broken in the first place. In the words of one religious; “You want to tear down everything and replace it with nothing.”

We Catholics, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, who still practice the faith are linked. Catholic communities exist and will continue to grow.

Peace,
Ed

 

[EasterJoy]

I think thats my point, I have a very close relationship with my parents, and while my mother and I do disagree on some points of view, I agree with her on far more. Even when there is disagreement there is respect, love and understanding. Often in things like religion, this concept of devastation is used as manipulation. How often do we see threads of CAF by someone whose parent(s) would be devastated if they did X, even X will make them happy and their adult mind and heart is clear about it. At what point do we acknowledge that an adult is in control of their own life and they are not bound to make choices based on what will and wont make their parents happy.

Part of the formation of children is teaching them to be empathetic without making themselves the slaves of either their own emotions or the emotions of others. Over the course of their childhood, you have to let them know that acting according to conscience and their own duty of determination for themselves and their children is often going to involve doing things that upset people you love. It will mean avoiding things that would please them. You need to teach them that “other people” include you, not just their kids. Otherwise, you not only send them into the world vulnerable to cynically manipulative people. You send them into an adulthood in which you and they cannot share emotions with each other honestly without being manipulative in doing it.

Good people will sometimes have to do things that other people will get upset about, and upset about in ways that the good person can empathize with. In the end, people who go through life thinking it is virtuous to be a people-pleaser will be neither virtuous nor pleasing. If you teach them to be people-pleasers with regards to Mom and Dad, as if that is what love and respect and honor of your parents means, as if that is the meaning of filial piety, you’re setting them up for a world of hurt.

 

[edwest2]

Part of the formation of children is teaching them to be empathetic without making themselves the slaves of either their own emotions or the emotions of others. Over the course of their childhood, you have to let them know that acting according to conscience and their own duty of determination for themselves and their children is often going to involve doing things that upset people you love. It will mean avoiding things that would please them. You need to teach them that “other people” include you, not just their kids. Otherwise, you not only send them into the world vulnerable to cynically manipulative people. You send them into an adulthood in which you and they cannot share emotions with each other honestly without being manipulative in doing it.

Good people will sometimes have to do things that other people will get upset about, and upset about in ways that the good person can empathize with. In the end, people who go through life thinking it is virtuous to be a people-pleaser will be neither virtuous nor pleasing. If you teach them to be people-pleasers with regards to Mom and Dad, as if that is what love and respect and honor of your parents means, as if that is the meaning of filial piety, you’re setting them up for a world of hurt.

Interesting. We had an employee who we brought in from another city. He decided, thanks to his upbringing, that moving “up” in the corporation meant telling lies and creating stories about things his “obstacle employees” never actually did. My boss, Catholic like me, asked me a few questions one day. And, I later found out, he also asked another employee some questions. As it turned out, a story got out. The employee who was trying to come up the corporate ladder at the cost of a few casualties along the way was found out - and fired for lying. What was also interesting was a meeting a few of us had with his mother. She told him “DTA” on a few occasions. We learned DTA meant Don’t Trust Anybody.

Jesus said, biblehub.com/matthew/10-16.htm

Peace,
Ed

 

[EasterJoy]

Interesting. We had an employee who we brought in from another city. He decided, thanks to his upbringing, that moving “up” in the corporation meant telling lies and creating stories about things his “obstacle employees” never actually did. My boss, Catholic like me, asked me a few questions one day. And, I later found out, he also asked another employee some questions. As it turned out, a story got out. The employee who was trying to come up the corporate ladder at the cost of a few casualties along the way was found out - and fired for lying. What was also interesting was a meeting a few of us had with his mother. She told him “DTA” on a few occasions. We learned DTA meant Don’t Trust Anybody.

Jesus said, biblehub.com/matthew/10-16.htm

Peace,
Ed

People who are not trustworthy tend to believe that no one else is trustworthy. The truly sociopathic ones, however, look for someone to trust them and look to exploit that trust. Martha Stout, who writes and lectures on sociopathic personality, says that sociopaths make hay on pity. The pity of a good person is carte blanche to someone with no conscience. If you cannot stick to what is right in spite of the emotional manipulations of someone who does not deserve your pity, you are very vulnerable. Everyone makes mistakes, but when there is a pattern of self-serving “mistakes,” it is time to roll up the carpet of trust. That is the “wise as a serpent” part.

I’m not referring so much to sociopaths, though. I mean that when we are upset with someone we know well, we can sort of regress into all sorts of emotional plays to get our way, and really put them through the wringer while we do it, if they let us. Sometimes, too, our true emotions make a difficult situation hard–think of breaking up with a girlfriend or boyfriend when this is really what needs to happen. When we are upset, we are in a weak moment, too. It pays to be able to compassionately stick to your guns with a loved one who is doing that, to care about their feelings and yet not be railroaded by them, whether the “railroading” is purposeful or not. Being able to do this is just one way of allowing cooler heads to prevail.

Being upset about what someone else has decided to do is also NOT carte blanche to try to manipulate them with emotional displays. Pray for them, persuade them, but no bullying by emotional blackmail. If someone thinks that being “devastated” gives them the right to do that, even to their own flesh and blood, they’re way off track, I think. “Caring so much” doesn’t mean you can just do or say anything!

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Yes, the thought that my children – those unique and unrepeatable existences whom I have been blessed and priviliged to participate in the creation of – would spend eternity in hell in complete separation from God is somewhat disconcerting to me.

Same here.

I am trying to understand the OP’s attitude towards her children and their salvation, but I really can’t.

 

[Lil_Cat]

Thank you for clarifying.

I think there is misunderstanding and debate going on here for no reason perhaps? I believe you agree with more people here than disagree. It seems, if I may take a guess, that what bothers you is that parents tend to take things so personally when their children make choices that they may turn to manipulation or making the children feel guilty?

You have mentioned “free will” many times on this post. I am a little bewildered why that keeps coming up so frequently to be honest. No one here is denying their children have free will. You have young children (ages 2 & 4) and already their free will is obvious. I assure you that those of us with older children have already had our hearts broken many times over with our children’s bad choices. You don’t need to remind us that our children have free will, we already know. Most of us had to learn a long time ago to turn our children over to the hand of God because they really are HIS children, not ours.

I think what most of us are asserting is the right to our emotions. Having raised and loved a child, when they make a choice that hurts us, it hurts that’s all. I have been devastated many times by my children’s choices that’s just a fact. However “devastated” describes a feeling, not an action. I can **feel **devastated but not really do anything to my child. For many parents, including myself, if their child were to leave the church they would be devastated, for some reason this doesn’t sit well with you which I am unable to understand actually, but I will honor your opinion. God bless you.

You know, I was coming back to clarify more after thinking about it last night and this morning but you said it already. Devastation is an emotion and everyone has the right to their emotions, but it is often used as a guilt, manipulation, and control tactic. I have seen it time and time again on CAF in people’s comments.

The reason I keep going back to free will is because you cannot control anyone’s behavior. I think people know this but they try to do it anyway, especially with their grown children. “Mom will be upset, so let’s hide from her that I have doubts and questions about the Church and I stopped going while I figure things out.” I don’t want my kids to hide things from me or feel like they have to spare my feelings about anything, really. It just rubs me the wrong way when parents put their personal happiness on their kid’s life choices. It’s unhealthy for everyone.

 

[Lil_Cat]

I am trying to understand the OP’s attitude towards her children and their salvation, but I really can’t.

My end goal is for them to be faithful Catholics but statistically all of them, current and future, probably won’t be. I choose to go into parenting with my eyes wide open.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

My end goal is for them to be faithful Catholics but statistically all of them, current and future, probably won’t be. I choose to go into parenting with my eyes wide open.

So you are basically expecting them to leave the faith, possibly lose their salvation and you are quite cool about it?

My kids are the same age as yours. I know chances are they might reject the faith. But the very thought of that makes me reach for the Rosary. Yeah, you bet I’d be devastated if they left the faith. I’d probably be on a pilgrimage to Santiago on my knees

 

[shelby_sun]

Quite frankly I am more and more finding the
OPs hypothesis bogus.

Gee no surprise there since you can’t get her to see things as you do!

 

[maryjk]

Maybe because its not my responsibility to make sure they get to heaven. Its my responsibility to get myself to heaven and to help my spouse get to heaven. I can teach them what I know, but then that pesky free will comes in

That is an interesting approach.

I see it as my responsibility to get everyone to heaven. Me, spouse, children, relatives, friends, neighbors; everyone.

Which is why I spread the Gospel the best way I can, as often as I can.

I am not halfway up a ladder, yelling down to everyone else, “Save yourselves.” I am at the bottom of that ladder, helping people start their climb. Standing behind those on the ladder that are tired, giving a shove to those that ask. In essence helping my fellow man up the ladder.

Now, does that mean I nag, shun, cut off those that don’t want to climb the ladder? Of course not. Regardless of who they are.

And if that person that doesn’t want to climb is my child, the same thing applies. I would not shun him. But nor would I give up on him. I would continue to show him the best way to live. And if he continued to leave, my soul would be devastated. I would be praying for his return. I would be praying endlessly for his return.

 

[Joe_5859]

My end goal is for them to be faithful Catholics but statistically all of them, current and future, probably won’t be. I choose to go into parenting with my eyes wide open.

I refuse to let my children be subject to statistics. Statistics don’t tell the whole story, anyway. There are many, many Catholics out there who are not authentically living out a personal relationship with Christ. It’s not much of a surprise that their children would not be attracted to a Catholic faith they haven’t seen lived out as it ought to be.

But I know plenty of Catholic families who do live out lives of intentional discipleship and their children tend to stay in the Church. That’s not accidental. It’s not just a roll of the dice. Yes, God has no grandchildren. Every person must make the choice for themselves eventually. But the Truth attracts. Jesus attracts. So if we live our lives in a way that Jesus is obviously present and obviously at the center, our children are far more likely to encounter Him themselves and experience the life-changing conversion that goes along with that encounter.

Seeing as how my faith is the deepest part of my identity – I could never see my children leaving that faith as no skin off my nose. As EasterJoy said, being “devastated” does not mean we engage in hysterics or employ relational aggression. If – God forbid – my children did grow up to reject the faith, I would always love them, always pray for them, and find my way to make peace with their decision (while always praying for their return). But I sure wouldn’t just shrug my shoulders and say “Ah, well, no big whoop. I gave it a shot.”

 

[Joe_5859]

I think I skimmed too quickly past some of the other posts. It seems like there is more of an understanding happening. Perhaps we’ve been fixating on different aspects which is why there was more of an apparent disconnect than perhaps there actually is.