"I would be devastated if my child didn't stay Catholic!"

[edwest2]

People who are not trustworthy tend to believe that no one else is trustworthy. The truly sociopathic ones, however, look for someone to trust them and look to exploit that trust. Martha Stout, who writes and lectures on sociopathic personality, says that sociopaths make hay on pity. The pity of a good person is carte blanche to someone with no conscience. If you cannot stick to what is right in spite of the emotional manipulations of someone who does not deserve your pity, you are very vulnerable. Everyone makes mistakes, but when there is a pattern of self-serving “mistakes,” it is time to roll up the carpet of trust. That is the “wise as a serpent” part.

I’m not referring so much to sociopaths, though. I mean that when we are upset with someone we know well, we can sort of regress into all sorts of emotional plays to get our way, and really put them through the wringer while we do it, if they let us. Sometimes, too, our true emotions make a difficult situation hard–think of breaking up with a girlfriend or boyfriend when this is really what needs to happen. When we are upset, we are in a weak moment, too. It pays to be able to compassionately stick to your guns with a loved one who is doing that, to care about their feelings and yet not be railroaded by them, whether the “railroading” is purposeful or not. Being able to do this is just one way of allowing cooler heads to prevail.

Being upset about what someone else has decided to do is also NOT carte blanche to try to manipulate them with emotional displays. Pray for them, persuade them, but no bullying by emotional blackmail. If someone thinks that being “devastated” gives them the right to do that, even to their own flesh and blood, they’re way off track, I think. “Caring so much” doesn’t mean you can just do or say anything!

Pity? It was simple deduction. We didn’t know this guy very well. All that was required was to listen and observe.

Manipulation? Parents need to offer good advice, friends need to offer good advice. Sometimes people reconsider, sometimes people don’t. Prayer is the answer. Not fear.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Lil_Cat]

So you are basically expecting them to leave the faith, possibly lose their salvation and you are quite cool about it?

Totally. That’s exactly what I am saying.

/sarcasm

I don’t want them to go to hell. If they choose that I will pray for them, but it will be crystal clear that I believe in the Catholic Church and I will teach them the way to salvation as I believe it. Their soul is their responsibility after they make their first confession and receive their first Eucharist. I refuse to coerce, manipulate, guilt, or control them by making their faith (or life) decisions about me and my emotions.

 

[Lil_Cat]

Thank you this really helps.

Perhaps a rewording of the original post or question might be in order? A parent might very well be devastated (a legitimate emotion) if their child wasn’t Catholic, however a parent’s ultimate happiness rests in Jesus Christ, not their children or any other human being. So a parent shouldn’t resort to manipulation or unhealthy coercion if their child converted? I don’t think a lot of people here, including myself, equated feeling devastated with controlling their child’s behavior so there was confusion. We probably really agree here. God bless your day.

You’re right. I should have worded it differently and not let my own emotions and issues get in the way.

 

[edwest2]

Totally. That’s exactly what I am saying.

/sarcasm

I don’t want them to go to hell. If they choose that I will pray for them, but it will be crystal clear that I believe in the Catholic Church and I will teach them the way to salvation as I believe it. Their soul is their responsibility after they make their first confession and receive their first Eucharist. I refuse to coerce, manipulate, guilt, or control them by making their faith (or life) decisions about me and my emotions.

So real trust, and real love are out, and the only concerns are guilt or manipulation? Wow.

The Bible tells us what real love and wisdom are and the lack of understanding of the truth about either is a great burden on all today. And fear. It takes work to keep and maintain a relationship with any two people. Not the ‘no fear’ assumption that ‘Hey. If they want to jump off a cliff, who am I to stop them?’ Remember folks, God is our rock, not the sands of fear.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Cathmomof6]

My end goal is for them to be faithful Catholics but statistically all of them, current and future, probably won’t be. I choose to go into parenting with my eyes wide open.

I can’t agree with this train of thought. My husband has said very similar things in regards to underage drinking and premarital sex. Things like “they will probably do it anyways, what can we do?” This is why parents let kids drink at home or give them condoms to “be safe”. I guess I would rather set the bar high. I see that attitude as basically approving the behavior.

I wholeheartedly agree with what Joe said above. I want to live my faith passionately so I will be a shining light to my kids, and they will want no less than that for themselves! I refuse to succumb to the culture of “everyone’s doing it”!! I don’t think that is being ignorant or blind.

My oldest is almost 13 so I am not quite sure how we will end up parenting our kids as they become teens and young adults. I think there is a fine line between pushing your beliefs/morals too hard and not communicating them enough. I am especially concerned since my husband already seems to accept the idea of our kids leaving the faith, premarital sex, underage drinking; but i know i would be heartbroken!! I guess I will continue to pray, pray, pray!!!

 

[EasterJoy]

Pity? It was simple deduction. We didn’t know this guy very well. All that was required was to listen and observe.

Manipulation? Parents need to offer good advice, friends need to offer good advice. Sometimes people reconsider, sometimes people don’t. Prayer is the answer. Not fear.

Peace,
Ed

Oh, I didn’t mean that you pitied him! I meant that some people are raised by their parents to think that “good” people will pity other people who put on an emotional display, even people who are unhappy because they’ve been called on doing what they have no right to do. Those parents set their children up for manipulation not only by their loved ones, but also by truly bad people.

If we teach our children that emotions are what they are, with no different meaning than what they have (which I tell my children is a sign of their internal or “bodily” sense of the situation they are in, which may or may not reflect the actual situation better than their intellectual sense), then we don’t have to choose between allowing ourselves to have emotions and allowing ourselves to use our emotions as an excuse for bad behavior.

 

[marywarfield]

I can’t agree with this train of thought. My husband has said very similar things in regards to underage drinking and premarital sex. Things like “they will probably do it anyways, what can we do?” This is why parents let kids drink at home or give them condoms to “be safe”. I guess I would rather set the bar high. I see that attitude as basically approving the behavior.

I wholeheartedly agree with what Joe said above. I want to live my faith passionately so I will be a shining light to my kids, and they will want no less than that for themselves! I refuse to succumb to the culture of “everyone’s doing it”!! I don’t think that is being ignorant or blind.

My oldest is almost 13 so I am not quite sure how we will end up parenting our kids as they become teens and young adults. I think there is a fine line between pushing your beliefs/morals too hard and not communicating them enough. I am especially concerned since my husband already seems to accept the idea of our kids leaving the faith, premarital sex, underage drinking; but i know i would be heartbroken!! I guess I will continue to pray, pray, pray!!!

Haha! Reminds me of when my son started driving
at sixteen. I spent every night sitting up biting my
nails.

Actually now that that is all behind me I think
basically you and your husband are both right but
I would change the wording.
Set the bar high, set the example, as minors insist
they at least meet their faith obligations, and
not drink etc.
Don’t EXPECT bad behavior but don’t be SURPRISED when
it shows up.

 

[Lil_Cat]

I can’t agree with this train of thought. My husband has said very similar things in regards to underage drinking and premarital sex. Things like “they will probably do it anyways, what can we do?” This is why parents let kids drink at home or give them condoms to “be safe”. I guess I would rather set the bar high. I see that attitude as basically approving the behavior.

I wholeheartedly agree with what Joe said above. I want to live my faith passionately so I will be a shining light to my kids, and they will want no less than that for themselves! I refuse to succumb to the culture of “everyone’s doing it”!! I don’t think that is being ignorant or blind.

My oldest is almost 13 so I am not quite sure how we will end up parenting our kids as they become teens and young adults. I think there is a fine line between pushing your beliefs/morals too hard and not communicating them enough. I am especially concerned since my husband already seems to accept the idea of our kids leaving the faith, premarital sex, underage drinking; but i know i would be heartbroken!! I guess I will continue to pray, pray, pray!!!

I think the difference is I would never tell my kids any of the above was acceptable because I don’t think it is! The bar will be set high - but at the same time they are human and they will make mistakes. I WANT them to tell me their mistakes so I can help them through it and make better choices the next time. I don’t want them to keep things from me for fear of my reaction. I grew up like you’re describing and there are lots of things I still haven’t told my mom because she would be ‘heartbroken’. In my opinion, its not a healthy way to relate to your kids. It has hurt my relationship with my parents. I want better for myself and my kids.

 

[Lil_Cat]

Don’t EXPECT bad behavior but don’t be SURPRISED when
it shows up.

Wow, we found something to agree on

 

[Cathmomof6]

I think the difference is I would never tell my kids any of the above was acceptable because I don’t think it is! The bar will be set high - but at the same time they are human and they will make mistakes. I WANT them to tell me their mistakes so I can help them through it and make better choices the next time. I don’t want them to keep things from me for fear of my reaction. I grew up like you’re describing and there are lots of things I still haven’t told my mom because she would be ‘heartbroken’. In my opinion, its not a healthy way to relate to your kids. It has hurt my relationship with my parents. I want better for myself and my kids.

I grew up the same way and DIDN’T do those things because I knew my parents would be “heartbroken”!!! I guess it could go either way:shrug: My parents and I have a great relationship!! There were still things I didn’t tell them because I knew they wouldn’t approve, but I ultimately knew their opinion and found my own way. That’s why I think there is such a fine line - same approach, different result. Also, things would be radically different if this individual were a minor or a young adult. If it was a minor, I would have to push things a little harder. With an adult, I would see my role more to provide guidance and support while trying not push them away even if we don’t see eye to eye!!

 

[Joe_5859]

I grew up the same way and DIDN’T do those things because I knew my parents would be “heartbroken”!!! I guess it could go either way:shrug: My parents and I have a great relationship!! There were still things I didn’t tell them because I knew they wouldn’t approve, but I ultimately knew their opinion and found my own way. That’s why I think there is such a fine line - same approach, different result. Also, things would be radically different if this individual were a minor or a young adult. If it was a minor, I would have to push things a little harder. With an adult, I would see my role more to provide guidance and support while trying not push them away even if we don’t see eye to eye!!

Interesting. I guess a lot depends on individual temperament. I never wanted to do anything I would have to hide from my parents either. It wasn’t that I specifically wanted to avoid breaking their hearts. None of that stuff ever struck me as something that would be a good idea to do. I guess I always saw the wisdom undergirding the “rules” and I also saw succumbing to peer pressure as a weakness.

I can understand the OP’s desire to not want her kids to feel they have to hide something from her. I definitely want the same thing for my kids. It might be a tough balance to strike.

 

[edwest2]

So when some people tell their kids they love them, it’s just part of the job, which ends when they become legal adults? When someone tells me they love me, I have to know them first. Friendship is earned. Trust is earned. In some cases, parents push that off on teachers or just give up because they hear, over and over again, “You can’t stop them from doing XYZ anyway, so why bother?”

There are adults out there who are having problems because “My parents never told me that.” Or “My mom and dad did those things too.”

Real love means taking the time, or there’s a good chance that someone else will raise your children indirectly. They need structure, they need rules. Not, “They’re adults now. Hands off!” Or at least talk to them about the most common mistakes kids their age are making and why they’re wrong. Yes, some might not listen, but some will. And talk to them about being a responsible and honest adult. Catholic or not, we need honest and responsible people who accept a task and do it. Why can’t parents have an honest and sincere relationship after their kids become adults? Sadly, when a young adult gets in trouble, who does he contact?

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

That is an interesting approach.

I see it as my responsibility to get everyone to heaven. Me, spouse, children, relatives, friends, neighbors; everyone.

Which is why I spread the Gospel the best way I can, as often as I can.

I am not halfway up a ladder, yelling down to everyone else, “Save yourselves.” I am at the bottom of that ladder, helping people start their climb. Standing behind those on the ladder that are tired, giving a shove to those that ask. In essence helping my fellow man up the ladder.

Now, does that mean I nag, shun, cut off those that don’t want to climb the ladder? Of course not. Regardless of who they are.

And if that person that doesn’t want to climb is my child, the same thing applies. I would not shun him. But nor would I give up on him. I would continue to show him the best way to live. And if he continued to leave, my soul would be devastated. I would be praying for his return. I would be praying endlessly for his return.

I love the last line in your original post. It’s not a good idea for the current village to raise your kids, especially now.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Oh, I didn’t mean that you pitied him! I meant that some people are raised by their parents to think that “good” people will pity other people who put on an emotional display, even people who are unhappy because they’ve been called on doing what they have no right to do. Those parents set their children up for manipulation not only by their loved ones, but also by truly bad people.

If we teach our children that emotions are what they are, with no different meaning than what they have (which I tell my children is a sign of their internal or “bodily” sense of the situation they are in, which may or may not reflect the actual situation better than their intellectual sense), then we don’t have to choose between allowing ourselves to have emotions and allowing ourselves to use our emotions as an excuse for bad behavior.

That’s true. But I think, for some, starting with the idea that one will manipulate the other is not a good one. Of the babies I’ve held, they didn’t know who I was but they were unafraid of me. As they became 1 through 5 years old, the world was home and then kindergarten, along with some friends. They expected their teachers to be good people. As they continued to age, I did my part to at least tell them about morals and values. I sincerely cared for each of them.

No one is perfect but each of us involved in taking care of children needs to understand that they learn by seeing, hearing and watching what the people they love around them do. This is critical. And hope and love of God are both critical.

Peace,
Ed

 

[masuwerte]

My son is being raised Catholic. If he will be a good Catholic as a man, I’ll be happy about it. If he chooses to worship God as an Episcopalian, as a Methodist, as a Lutheran or some other type of non-Catholic Christian, I’ll be pleased as well if he’s sincere about it and if it brings him closer to God.

I see your particular ecclesial community as one of several good options. I know that’s not how Catholics are supposed to see things, but I suspect that many do see it that way. Maybe that’s why they’re not devastated if their grown son or daughter chooses religious belief slightly different from their own.

 

[EasterJoy]

That’s true. But I think, for some, starting with the idea that one will manipulate the other is not a good one. Of the babies I’ve held, they didn’t know who I was but they were unafraid of me. As they became 1 through 5 years old, the world was home and then kindergarten, along with some friends. They expected their teachers to be good people. As they continued to age, I did my part to at least tell them about morals and values. I sincerely cared for each of them.

No one is perfect but each of us involved in taking care of children needs to understand that they learn by seeing, hearing and watching what the people they love around them do. This is critical. And hope and love of God are both critical.

Peace,
Ed

I like the rule of threes, which essentially says that it is frail human nature to violate trust occasionally, and life is too short to suspect everyone or to give up trusting someone because they’ve let their lesser nature rule once, but that the radar ought to go up when someone has seriously violated your trust a second time, with the trust going out the window when it happens a third time. (Meaning as you gather evidence about their nature, not that you keep score over decades.) After that, you ought to be cautious about putting much trust in them, if you trust them at all. Your characterization of this fellow lying and allowing himself “casualties along the way” shows a pattern of behavior, not just an isolated instance of ambition giving way to a shameful impulse.

I wasn’t originally talking about people who are being purposefully manipulative, though. I mean isolated instances of trying to sway you to do what they want by emotional outbursts, or even just allowing it to show that they are feeling shock or profound dismay over something you’ve decided to do.

People will try to persuade, people will get emotional about things that are important to them, you will inevitably have guilt feelings when someone is all upset “because of you,” but when you examine your conscience and see that you have done them no wrong, you can let go of guilt in favor of having empathy that they are taking this difficulty of life so hard and perhaps giving them help to manage their emotions and to know that you mean them no harm or ill will by what you’re doing.

 

[bmaj]

Yes, the thought that my children – those unique and unrepeatable existences whom I have been blessed and priviliged to participate in the creation of – would spend eternity in hell in complete separation from God is somewhat disconcerting to me.

We all want what’s best for our children, no? What is better than eternal beatitude with God in heaven?

Certainly, we hold out hope for the salvation of all, but the only sure path to salvation that I know is a living relationship with Christ in the Catholic Church. So that’s where I want my children to end up.

Well said, Joe. Speaking as a Mother whose grown child told her last year that they were leaving the Catholic Church to join another Christian Church, I WAS devastated and still am, but I will pray every day until the day I die for their return to the Catholic Church as well as their eternal salvation. It still hurts to even think about that day when I heard the news, but I will continue to love them despite the sadness in my heart, and I will never stop praying for them. I am so thankful to know St. Monica’s example of faith and persistence! Since the OP’s children are just toddlers and she’s thinking hypothetically about the possibility occurring many years from now, it’s likely a very different vantage point for her. But if it actually happens, the hurt is far too real, at least for me.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I refuse to coerce, manipulate, guilt, or control them by making their faith (or life) decisions about me and my emotions.

I think that by now it is clear that people responding to your question don’t see feeling disappointment the same as acting in a manipulative and controlling way. But you seem to insist that they are the same. I suspect there are deeper reasons for that

 

[Miss_Felicity]

My son is being raised Catholic. If he will be a good Catholic as a man, I’ll be happy about it. If he chooses to worship God as an Episcopalian, as a Methodist, as a Lutheran or some other type of non-Catholic Christian, I’ll be pleased as well if he’s sincere about it and if it brings him closer to God.

I see your particular ecclesial community as one of several good options. I know that’s not how Catholics are supposed to see things, but I suspect that many do see it that way. Maybe that’s why they’re not devastated if their grown son or daughter chooses religious belief slightly different from their own.

I like this post, a lot. I would be more devastated to have a child not be a good person. It would break my heart if my child sat in a Catholic church every week but was not kind, or loving, didn’t volunteer or give to charity, was judgemental or mean. I think I would be much more concerned with the character of my child than where they went to worship God. I admit if they were not Christian, that may be slightly harder to swallow but I have amazing Muslim friends, I know very loving, caring Bahi folks too among others.

 

[maryjk]

Well said, Joe. Speaking as a Mother whose grown child told her last year that they were leaving the Catholic Church to join another Christian Church, I WAS devastated and still am, but I will pray every day until the day I die for their return to the Catholic Church as well as their eternal salvation. It still hurts to even think about that day when I heard the news, but I will continue to love them despite the sadness in my heart, and I will never stop praying for them. I am so thankful to know St. Monica’s example of faith and persistence! Since the OP’s children are just toddlers and she’s thinking hypothetically about the possibility occurring many years from now, it’s likely a very different vantage point for her. But if it actually happens, the hurt is far too real, at least for me.

I was that child that left the Church.

I moved in with my boyfriend. I eventually married said boyfriend. But I married in a courthouse. I eventually made my way back to the Church. We were married by a priest, our son was baptized and has been raised Catholic. And we have now been married for over 20 years.

I am sure my mother was devastated. I know she prayed for me. And I know she was elated that I returned.

She did not coerce, manipulate, guilt, or control me into returning. She prayed for my return. And she was thrilled when did return.

And I see nothing wrong with that.

(Edited to change the placement of the last sentence. Somehow it got in the middle and didn’t make any sense.