i would like to discuss this difficult parable of Christ's - 10 virgins... Purgatory??? Hell??

[distracted]

Justy90:
i just read SOME more of your post… but not all because i don’t respond when there is hostility … ad hominem

 

[distracted]

I also underwent SELF-CATECHESIS…a sad commentary on the inadequate and uninspiring nature of Catholic education. I went 18 years and never knew that the Eucharist was the Body and Blood of Christ. I thought it was just a wafer. Imagine how I sat there in CCD and didn’t even get taught the obvious basic nature of the Eucharist?!! My two major beefs with Catholicism are a) the Church doesn’t make much of an effort to effectively educate its people and b.) the Catholic Church usually has a “you come to us, we’re sure as heck not coming to you” mentality. The RCC expects people to investigate into it, not reach out and pull folks in like true fishers of men. It’s also more apologetically-oriented than missionary-oriented. Most Catholic converts I know joined because they married a Portuguese, Mexican, or Filipino around here. They joined because the ethnic group into which they married brought them in. Or I know the Scott Hahn Effect, where some scholars set out to mock, chide, and trash Catholicism end up finding they agree with it in the way of the ECF’s etc. In most cases it’s not the RCC coming knocking on one’s door or doing a TV spot, or sending lay folks as missionaries overseas. It’s people seeking, not being sought.

i have had the same thoughts… that these are the 2 criticisms i have of the Church, etc…

if you have something awesome and life-saving (in my case, it was literally life saving!!) you should share it… and i do… even though many don’t like it (including yours truly!!! :hypno:uch: I don’t like getting persecuted and attacked anymore than anyone else but i know its the right thing to do… )

if every Catholic evangelized… this world could be and would be a better place… When we don’t evangelize, well, i guess we get the rotten stuff we deserve… a world where pepole think they can just do any old selfish, evil thing (virtually) and get into Heaven as well…

u get what you pay for…

 

[Marfran]

distracted:

i believe more men go to Heaven than women.
women seem to love their husbands fairly well… but they absolute HATE other women, usally.

that’s reason Number 1.

for another thing, women put human love over the love of God a lot of the time…

there are other reasons… but i’ve seen enough to come to this conclusion.

true, only God knows such things… but from what i’ve seen…

as stated in an old thread… there was a story of this woman who had an after-life experience… and she said when she reached the gates of Heaven, she saw many MEN there… as though there could have been more men than women…

i have no trouble believing this…

i am a woman… i know how hard it is to… do certain things Jesus said to do…

but anyhow… you all can pouce on me now if you want…

I am convinced of this…

 

[Marfran]

distracted:

The person who masturbates misses out on a lot of what God has for him / her in this life

 

[Marfran]

distracted:

mental retardation occurs more in men than women

 

[Richard_Kastner]

This thread started out with the very valid task of exploring the parable of the ten virgins in Matt25. But now has digressed into some kind of bizzare name calling game, where posts from other threads are being used. At the risk of being called a name I would like to get back to the OP, because what I see being posted about this parable seems to me to be missing the mark somewhat.

Ok, here is the parable.

Matthew 25
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

I think the misunderstanding comes in with who the virgins represent

Gen.3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jeramiah 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

So, a church is represented by a woman and a virgin represents a church that is faithful to God. So, all ten of these virgin women represent churches faithful to Jesus Christ. What is the difference then? Well quite obviously it is the possession of the oil, or not that makes the difference. Well, then what does the oil represent?

Lev.8: 12And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron’s head, and anointed him, to sanctify him.

1 Samuel 16:13Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Zech.4:1And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
So, the oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and as we see in Zechariah that Spirit fuels the lamp that gives the light. What is the light or more properly who is the light?

Jn1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

So, these ten virgins are ten churches all follow Christ, but only five are diligent enough to seek the Spirit of the Lord. As a result of their foolishness in not seeking the Spirit of God, The foolish virgins are not allowed into the wedding feast, because it is only through the anointing of the Spirit of God that we can get to know Jesus.

Jn14:24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[Marfran]

This thread started out with the very valid task of exploring the parable of the ten virgins in Matt25. But now has digressed into some kind of bizzare…

I hear you. Happens in all of my threads. I try to have an intellectual conversation/debate/discussion and someone comes along and posts irrelevant/erroneous/misleading replies with the intent to distract from the topic at hand.

You did a great job with your analysis. Carry on!!!

Peace,
Mary

 

[distracted]

Jn14:24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

thanks for the scripoture readings and yes, i knew that the oil represents the Holy Spirit… The Church uses oil in ordinations and anointings, etc… for this reason

but the 10 virgins do not represent churches…

there is only ONE Church… all the other so-called churches are ecclessial communities, not churches…

so the 10 virgins are NOT churches…

they are those who are prepared to meet JEsus or not prepared to meet him…

i just was wondering about whether the other virgins are locked out forever or if htey have to go through Purgatory to get … “oil”, as it were… to get that Spirit they lost along the way or whatever…

 

[Steven_John]

there is only ONE Church… all the other so-called churches are ecclessial communities, not churches.

Amen in my heart but the bible shows different, references to communities are made as churches. In revelations the 7 communities are called churches and each have their own spirit.

 

[distracted]

Amen in my heart but the bible shows different, references to communities are made as churches. In revelations the 7 communities are called churches and each have their own spirit.

The true Church has gone throuhg many changes since the beginning…

Even so, there are still many Churches meaning many different buildings in many different geographical locations…

but there has always only been ONE Church…

i have studied Church history and knowthat the original Church and the one and only Church is the RCC…

i kinda alreayd knew that but all that study did me a world of good… becauea for one thing, i have NO doubts anymore whatsoever… the only reason i had any at all was because i had lived in a protestant world for so many years before coming back to the Church… i had a lot of the same quesitons they did…

anyway, i was just wondering if the 5 foolish virgins ever made it to Heavne or not… or did they go to Purgatory first??

 

[Steven_John]

The true Church has gone throuhg many changes since the beginning…

Even so, there are still many Churches meaning many different buildings in many different geographical locations…

but there has always only been ONE Church…

i have studied Church history and knowthat the original Church and the one and only Church is the RCC…

i kinda alreayd knew that but all that study did me a world of good… becauea for one thing, i have NO doubts anymore whatsoever… the only reason i had any at all was because i had lived in a protestant world for so many years before coming back to the Church… i had a lot of the same quesitons they did…

anyway, i was just wondering if the 5 foolish virgins ever made it to Heavne or not… or did they go to Purgatory first??

The parable answers the question, doesn’t it?

To compare this parable (biblical narration of Yeshua (pbwh)) to purgatory (offering given by “the claimant of Peter (pbuh) seat”) could be problematic.

My Brother Yeshua (pbwh) is the word of My Father, in this parable or any others i can find or even in the OT i cant find purgatory or limbo.

Nor do i know where to access ancient writings of the Church for fathers explaining why Yeshua (pbwh) or My Father did not reveal such important things.

By His will may My Father bless and guide you and yours as yous submit unto Him

 

[Linda_Marie]

I have consulted ‘The Parables of Jesus’ by Joachim Jeremias ( available here questia.com/library/book/the-parables-of-jesus-by-joachim-jeremias.jsp online, but you have to join to read it). I have the book from taking a course on the Parables of Jesus at my first parish. This was our textbook.

Per Jeremias: (paraphrased, not quoted, parable is referenced on pages 51-53 and 171-176)
This is one of the Parousia parables, that it, it is speaking about the Second Coming of Christ. In the 10 Virgins, we find the expectant Christian community. The delay of the bridegroom is the delay of the Second Coming and the ‘stern rejection of the foolish virgins is the Final Judgement’. At an early date in Church history, the foolish virgins were interpreted to be Israel, while the wise virgins were those who had accepted Christ, ie the Gentiles.

The wedding custom was to celebrate with singing and dancing during the day followed by a feast in the evening. The bride would leave after the feast and go to the groom’s house where her bridesmaids prepared her. The groom would leave later, after all the ‘contracts’ had been agreed and signed. These negotiations sometimes took a long time. The bridesmaids would wait to greet the bridegroom with lit torches, follow him into the house and dance around him with the torches until they go out, then leave the bridegroom alone with his bride. If their torches were not lit, they could not join this final dance/celebration.The foolish virgins gave an excuse; they had not thought ahead to the possibility that the bridegroom would be delayed. In this way they are equated with those invited to the banquet yet who offer worldly excuses as to why they cannot come, (I have just bought 5 yoke of oxen, I have just bought a village and need to collect my rent etc). The foolish virgins did not prepare to meet the bridegroom.

It describes a crisis coming upon them suddenly, but one which should have been expected because they knew he would come, just not the hour.

Only he who pays attention to the note of joy on which the parable starts is able to grasp the stern warning it conveys: all the more let it be your concern to prepare yourself for the hour of trial and judgment what will precede the fulfillment. pg 175

 

[distracted]

The parable answers the question, doesn’t it?

To compare this parable (biblical narration of Yeshua (pbwh)) to purgatory (offering given by “the claimant of Peter (pbuh) seat”) could be problematic.

My Brother Yeshua (pbwh) is the word of My Father, in this parable or any others i can find or even in the OT i cant find purgatory or limbo.

Nor do i know where to access ancient writings of the Church for fathers explaining why Yeshua (pbwh) or My Father did not reveal such important things.

By His will may My Father bless and guide you and yours as yous submit unto Him

i guess you will find out there’s a Purgatory when you get there…

you are already there if you are trying to do everything Jesus said…

Jesus said that when you do this, you will be “hated by all” … that’s one example of Purgatory…

If we do absolutely everything Jesus says we can avoid Purg in the next life altogether… but how many people actually succeed…? which is why the Church (saints, etc) tells us that most people go to Purg before Heaven…

i have learned from experience the extent to which this HAS to be true… i mean pepole are really into evil these days… whole lotta purgation needs to be goin on…

 

[distracted]

I have consulted ‘The Parables of Jesus’ by Joachim Jeremias ( available here questia.com/library/book/the-parables-of-jesus-by-joachim-jeremias.jsp online, but you have to join to read it). I have the book from taking a course on the Parables of Jesus at my first parish. This was our textbook.

Per Jeremias: (paraphrased, not quoted, parable is referenced on pages 51-53 and 171-176)
This is one of the Parousia parables, that it, it is speaking about the Second Coming of Christ. In the 10 Virgins, we find the expectant Christian community. The delay of the bridegroom is the delay of the Second Coming and the ‘stern rejection of the foolish virgins is the Final Judgement’. At an early date in Church history, the foolish virgins were interpreted to be Israel, while the wise virgins were those who had accepted Christ, ie the Gentiles.

The wedding custom was to celebrate with singing and dancing during the day followed by a feast in the evening. The bride would leave after the feast and go to the groom’s house where her bridesmaids prepared her. The groom would leave later, after all the ‘contracts’ had been agreed and signed. These negotiations sometimes took a long time. The bridesmaids would wait to greet the bridegroom with lit torches, follow him into the house and dance around him with the torches until they go out, then leave the bridegroom alone with his bride. If their torches were not lit, they could not join this final dance/celebration.The foolish virgins gave an excuse; they had not thought ahead to the possibility that the bridegroom would be delayed. In this way they are equated with those invited to the banquet yet who offer worldly excuses as to why they cannot come, (I have just bought 5 yoke of oxen, I have just bought a village and need to collect my rent etc). The foolish virgins did not prepare to meet the bridegroom.

It describes a crisis coming upon them suddenly, but one which should have been expected because they knew he would come, just not the hour.

***or in other words:

not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… only those who do the will of the Father… which means being Catholic… ***

truly Catholic, i should say… not Nancy Pelosi Catholic… gee… why does it PAIN me to even put those 2 in the same sentence (NP and Catholic)??

 

[distracted]

The parable answers the question, doesn’t it?

if it were that simple we wouldn’t need someone to interpret the Bible…

and we do because it does not interpret itself…

which is why we have so many interpretations these days to choose from… why we have 40,000 different “christian” so-called churches… all teaching different things…

but i don’t have 40,000 to choose from because i know which one is the right one… RCC

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Heaven is often called a banquet in scripture. So the virgins with the oil are going into heaven. We need to remeber that purgatory is not a place between heaven and hell. If you’ve made it to purgatory, you will get into heaven. There is no point in having the temporal punishment from your sin ‘purged’ if you are then going to go to hell for those same sins.

So, we don’t know if after they went into the hall and the door was shut, if they still had to go through some kind of ritual cleansing before they got to the actual dinning room. And it doesn’t matter. The point is to have our eyes on heaven and sterr far from any behaviors that may land us in hell.

The true Church has gone throuhg many changes since the beginning…

Even so, there are still many Churches meaning many different buildings in many different geographical locations…

but there has always only been ONE Church…

i have studied Church history and knowthat the original Church and the one and only Church is the RCC…

i kinda alreayd knew that but all that study did me a world of good… becauea for one thing, i have NO doubts anymore whatsoever… the only reason i had any at all was because i had lived in a protestant world for so many years before coming back to the Church… i had a lot of the same quesitons they did…

anyway, i was just wondering if the 5 foolish virgins ever made it to Heavne or not… or did they go to Purgatory first??

 

[Carlan]

truly Catholic, i should say… not Nancy Pelosi Catholic… gee… why does it PAIN me to even put those 2 in the same sentence (NP and Catholic)??

:tsktsk:

Remember the rules Distracted, We don’t do God’s job for him. We can judge a persons actions and behavior as wrong, we leave the judging of the heart to God the Father. Now you know that. So lets continue the sorrowfully rosary for the whole world and especially for ourselves.:yup: Carlan.

 

[wcknight]

hmmm follow Luther, a known nutcase heretic, or follow the one true Church that Christ promised to never abandon…

not a real tough choice here… seems like a no-brainer to me. I choose to follow the Church each and every time.

 

[distracted]

maybe you should adhere to this advice yourself.

 

[distracted]

hmmm follow Luther, a known nutcase heretic, or follow the one true Church that Christ promised to never abandon…

not a real tough choice here… seems like a no-brainer to me. I choose to follow the Church each and every time.

and he WAS a nut case… this “Father of Protestantism”…

the book The Facts About Luther was a real eye-opener… :hypno::coffeeread::hypno: