I would like to know your "Spiritual background"

[JonNC]

nononono i’m sorry my wording was probably wrong. what i meant was that they get along fine w/o the doctrine of TRANSUBSTANTIATION, which of course is not quite the same. several churches that i’m aware of (Lutheran, Episcopalean, Greek Orthodox, etc.) hold belief in their “Real Presence” in some way or another, but essentially none quite believe in Transubstantiation (for what reason i haven’t quite been able to gather). All I meant was, although I believe in the doctrine, I don’t think it needed to be put in place because 1. lots of unneeded controversy and 2. The Body and Blood that is concecrated by a priest is still the Lord whether or not this doctrine had been created. see what i mean, or was i too wordy? :doh2:

C4C,
You are spot on with this. The change in the Eucharist is a mystery. Transubstantiation (AND Luther’s “in, with, and under”) are human expressions of this mystery. Personally, I have no problem with Catholic Transubstantiation (it is a reasonable expression of the mystery). I have a problem with it being doctrine.

Jon

 

[distracted]

you’re welcome

nononono i’m sorry my wording was probably wrong. what i meant was that they get along fine w/o the doctrine of TRANSUBSTANTIATION, which of course is not quite the same. several churches that i’m aware of (Lutheran, Episcopalean, Greek Orthodox, etc.) hold belief in their “Real Presence” in some way or another, but essentially none quite believe in Transubstantiation (for what reason i haven’t quite been able to gather). All I meant was, although I believe in the doctrine, I don’t think it needed to be put in place because 1. lots of unneeded controversy and 2. The Body and Blood that is concecrated by a priest is still the Lord whether or not this doctrine had been created. see what i mean, or was i too wordy? :doh2:

Maybe i am a little rushed (& therefore can’t think so clearly…) but i think i am a little MORE confused now…

God bless…

 

[distracted]

? Because I’ve always had a dreadful dislike for the perfect un-beauty of the concept of infinite regress (or infinite multitude).

i don’t understand why infinity is a problem… I think it is awesome that we can be with God in Heaven infinitely… forever…

There is no “solution”, or description, more ugly and un-beautiful than “infinity”.

again, i don’t understand…

I don’t understand this exactly either:

ALL religion, other than Catholic Christianity, leads in some variety of circle, around and around, back to it’s tail and right up it’s own “backside”, in an infinite loop, describing nothing more than pointless infinitude…

God bless…

 

[distracted]

Whatever floats your boat, dude.

i’m not a dude…

 

[Catholic_Kenpo]

What religion were you raised in? United Methodist Church

**Are you now Catholic? **Absolutely

Why or why not? I don’t believe I really had a choice in the matter. The Holy Spirit called me out of my agnostic lethargy. As I told my RCIA class, God decided that he had had enough of my lack of faith, so he kicked me in the behind and told me to get to church. I obeyed.

**Did you ever go away from Jesus… (in other words, were you ever a “goat”)? **I have no idea what you mean by goat, but I spent close to 14 years or so in varying forms of agnosticism. Towards the end, I denied my Christianity, but prior to that, it had always felt wrong when my wiccan friends would attack the faith.

What do you think about the Catholics’ belief of the Real Presence? This was perhaps one of the biggest stumbling blocks for me. I really didn’t come to recognize the truth of this until last year. Now, I don’t see how it can be denied, when you see the scriptural basis for it. (And, yes, I’m more than aware that some here have and will.)

And anything else you would like to add… I’m not a theologian or biblical scholar, so don’t expect any kind of amazing debate from me. I can only speak to what has been revealed to me. Accepting the Truth of all of the Catholic teachings, regardless of whether I actually understand them, has brought me closer to God than I’ve been at any point in my life. For that I will be forever grateful.

-CK

 

[distracted]

C4C,
, I have no problem with Catholic Transubstantiation (it is a reasonable expression of the mystery). I have a problem with it being doctrine.

Jon

you would have no problem with it if you ever spent an hour or more in His Presence… No place like it on Earth…

 

[PHX_Paul]

“you would have no problem with it if you ever spent an hour or more in His Presence… No place like it on Earth…”

Thank You! and AMEN!

 

[Catholic4Christ]

Maybe i am a little rushed (& therefore can’t think so clearly…) but i think i am a little MORE confused now…

God bless…

sorry 'bout that. um…
okay so the “Real Presence” is is exactly what it sounds like, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. several denominations claim this to be so in their respective Eucharists.
Transubstantiation is the doctrine that says that during the consecration the bread and the wine becomes the Body and Blood, and the only major denomination that believes this is Catholicism. Before this doctrine there were no specifics on how the Real Presence came to be, it was just sorta “there.”
I don’t really know why the doctrine is such a controversy, but it is. So I guess what I meant is, although I believe in the doctrine, it may have been a bit more trouble that its worth to be established when for years and years the Church got along without it.

that’s about the best I can do to explain.

 

[distracted]

So I guess what I meant is, although I believe in the doctrine, it may have been a bit more trouble that its worth to be established when for years and years the Church got along without it.

Ok… now i understand what you are saying… but not exactly WHY you are saying it… I mean, what is it that bothers you about making it an official doctrine?

What all do you know about the process of making it doctrine? I never heard any history of that… just kinda never thought about it, figured it was always doctrine, officially or otherwise…

thanks…

 

[distracted]

ISometimes my mother would become angry with the pastor at our church and take us to a nearby Methodist Church.

What did she get angry about?

Because I know that it is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, has continued Apostolic Succession from St. Peter, it
Did you ever go away from Jesus… (in other words, were you ever a “goat”)? When did you 1st suspect that to be the case?? I mean, did you meet a “fanatical Catholic” or something??

I left the Sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church for around 5 years and returned to the Church on Divine Mercy Sunday in 2007. Those 5 years away from the Church were literally a living hell!

care to elaborate?? Why was it hell?? Why did you leave the RCC?? just wondering…

And the Catholic Church has the special protection of a good humble Jewish Mother and an honest hardworking carpenter for a foster father—With that kind of a team on your side, you can’t go wrong!

Paul



never thought of it that way… Thanks… lifted me up…

 

[Catholic4Christ]

Ok… now i understand what you are saying… but not exactly WHY you are saying it… I mean, what is it that bothers you about making it an official doctrine?

What all do you know about the process of making it doctrine? I never heard any history of that… just kinda never thought about it, figured it was always doctrine, officially or otherwise…

thanks…

well i won’t presume to know all the history of Transubstatiation. What i do know is that it was mainly set in place to explain the Real Presence, which makes sense, I have little problem with that, but if whoever developed it had foresight (and I concede that they did not know that there would be some controversy like we do) i doubt they would have made it a doctrine because the most important thing is the Real Presence, not how it gets there.

let me again stress though that I 100% believe the doctrine, I just don’t think it needed exactly.

 

[cheese_sdc]

i’m not a dude…

Alright then,

Whatever floats your boat, dudette.

:yawn:

I don’t know what your intent with that message was. I mean, don’t you think that a one time seminarian who has left the Catholic Church would have reconciled that decision with the afterlife?

 

[JonNC]

you would have no problem with it if you ever spent an hour or more in His Presence… No place like it on Earth…

If permitted, I will have to try it.

Jon

 

[PHX_Paul]

“What did she get angry about?”

Petty church politics. The pastor was a good business man and a promotor and became President of the American Baptist Convention but lacked some simple Christian virtues (oops!..hope this isn’t detraction)

“* When did you 1st suspect that to be the case?? I mean, did you meet a “fanatical Catholic” or something?? *”

John Cardinal Newman said (paraphrasing) " The more I studied history the less Protestant I became." In my case, the more I studied Christianity and history, the less " pagan" I became. My life was out of control from discarding tradition, and I wanted the grounding of tradition in my life again. After remembering the court room settings of Protestant chuches and the warm " maternal" feeling I always had in Catholic churches, I drifted towards the Catholic Church. The more I read, the more I was convinced of the " authenticity" of the Catholic Church. A pivotal book was a book by Malcolm Muggeridge on the great Christian theologians. I can’t remember the title. Another pivotal book was The Conservative Mind. (though a political book not a theological tract) Brideshead Revisisted had a role to play too! Also, I had a great aunt who was a Catholic convert…I think that she was praying for me!

Why did you leave the RCC?? just wondering

A combination of serious depression, alcoholism, a large impersonal parish that I felt alienated in, some anti-Catholic pressures in my family, and some “relativism” in my life that I had to confront with respect to sexual issues.

*Why was it hell?? *

Aside from the above issues- my life no longer had any meaning, my soul was literally starving from being deprived of Communion, my heart had become so hard that I totally lost any sense of sin. … …life and the world seemed dead to me and I seemed dead to myself.

When I returned to the Sacraments on Divine Mercy Sunday…I was openly sobbing (which is out of character for me…I’m a stiff upper lipped stoic type). After I received Communion, I did some more sobbing making everbody around me uncomfortable and I didn’t want to leave the church after mass. I think this partially answers your other question " Care to elaborate" but not thoroughly.

I could write several pages on the graces and healing the Lord has given me over the last two years through the Eucharist. But, I actually need to start getting ready to go to confession and evening mass. I try to go to morning mass every day but I surrendered to " acedia" and went back to sleep this morning!

Paul

 

[wisdomseeker]

C4C,
You are spot on with this. The change in the Eucharist is a mystery. Transubstantiation (AND Luther’s “in, with, and under”) are human expressions of this mystery. Personally, I have no problem with Catholic Transubstantiation (it is a reasonable expression of the mystery). I have a problem with it being doctrine.

Jon

1.2 billion people dont have any problem in obeying the Churche’s teachings.

if you are not obeying this Church, you are obeying a something that is false.

my point is you either listen to one or the other. cant be both.

Peace.

 

[Swan]

I would like to better know the people who come to these forums…

What religion were you raised in?

Are you now Catholic?

Why or why not?

Did you ever go away from Jesus… (in other words, were you ever a “goat”)?

What do you think about the Catholics’ belief of the Real Presence?

And anything else you would like to add… Thanks…

1. I was raised Baptist in that my family was Bapist. My grandmother and grandfather, to whom I was exceptionally close, were, however, Pentecostal (my granny switched when she married my stepgrandpa - the only one I really knew. My biological grandfather was an alcoholic who deserted his wife and kids before I was born). So I often went to church with them so was exposed to Pentecostal worship as well (I always loved the singing). I was never baptised and didn’t attent church regularly and was often involved with different Protestant demoniations. I was in the childrens’ choir at a Christian Church as well as at a Baptist and I went to vacation Bible school at a Methodist. I have an uncle and cousin who are Baptist ministers. I’m from the South, btw, so I guess it’s “Southern Baptist” tho I never saw this on the church sign or anything. I also attended a non-denom born again church for a while and had a lot of born again friends.
2. and 3) I converted to Catholicism when I was about 31 years old (19 years ago). I’d always been drawn to it and want to mention that my family was very supportive, yes, even those Southern Baptists. They were happy for me. However, as time went on I wasn’t so happy. I had a near suicidal breakdown for which I was in the psych ward (as I so affectionately call it) for 2 weeks. Up until that time I had had what I felt was a very close relationship to God. Once the depression hit (I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder) I felt only God’s total absence. Nothing, nada. No comfort, nothing. Just black, empty suffering. I tried to go back to church after that but it was just empty for me. I did go back a few years ago. Unfortunatly, I had another depressive incident, the first in all those years, that came in the midst of me changing my life to do what I sincerely felt was God’s will for me. My husband, who is a cradle Catholic, suggested that those feelings (basically, those feelings I had when I felt I was in communion with God) were delusional. If so, then perhaps all my spiritual experiences were delusions of a sort. Perhaps my entire belief system was built on delusion. I started to question everything and, in a nutshell, I lost my faith. I no longer believe in the Judeo/Christian concept of God, heaven/hell, etc. It simply does not correspond with my experience.

I am not, however, an atheist. I do belive in a god, a superior being. I believe our soul’s evolve over eons, sort of like Buddhism but not quite as they don’t really use the term “soul”. I am interested in spirituality and consider myself a seeker. The more I’ve learned about scripture and the assembling of the Bible, the more I doubt that it is the story Jesus wanted to get out. I believe in the priesthood of all men in that we are all on our individual spiritual path to eventually rejoin the “one”. I am interested in mysticism

1. After my hospitilization, when I first left the church, I did reject Jesus. Indeed, I got very into the darker side of the occult.
2. I actually believe in the real presence - I never had any trouble with this concept. One of the things that drew me to the church was the mysticism. I think that Jesus meant for us to be more mystical and I find that the organized church has discouraged this on an individual level, yet I find it to be very important. I think Jesus was telling us that the kinddom of God (a mystical being difficult to comprehend, remember, I’m no atheist) is within each of us now - that we don’t need other people, let alone a hierarcy, to get us there. Though I’m not an expert by any means, I think it is likely that some of the works that are in the apocrypha hold real truth and that these works were eliminated from the Bible because they denied the need for an established institution.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs
Because I’ve always had a dreadful dislike for the perfect un-beauty of the concept of infinite regress (or infinite multitude).

i don’t understand why infinity is a problem… I think it is awesome that we can be with God in Heaven infinitely… forever…

I draw a distinction between infinity and eternity.

Infinity is the opposite of “finity”, which is “the finite”. Infinity is not a description OF something but rather a description NOT OF something.

Ugliness is lack of right order where there should be order and proper operation.

Infinity as a “solution” is “ugly” because it describes a lack of something while not contributing any real thing to the “solution”. It is a simple “side-step” to avoid a real solution.

Eternity implies time, and is a real description of a real thing. Eternity is not infinite time, but time bounded as God sees fit.

The universe contains no true infinities. Perceived infinities (by humans) are always misinterpretations of “things” which God is most obviously “holding something in existence”. To notice a supposed infinity is to find a “thin spot in the veil” between man and God.

Quote:
There is no “solution”, or description, more ugly and un-beautiful than “infinity”.

again, i don’t understand…

I don’t understand this exactly either:

Quote:
ALL religion, other than Catholic Christianity, leads in some variety of circle, around and around, back to it’s tail and right up it’s own “backside”, in an infinite loop, describing nothing more than pointless infinitude…

Only Christianity comes to a point, and only Catholic Christianity makes that point perfectly explicit and (salvation-wise) “useful”.

The point of Christianity is to choose truth or not. Truth (of God-stuff) is revelation. The single-point authority of truth is the Church (via the Magisterium).

In as much as any religion is congruent with the dogmas of the Church, they have “a point” and are “useful” for salvation purposes. Where they aren’t congruent with the Church they lead to self-contradictions which, if held incorrectly as “truth”, DEMAND some variety of “infinite regress” or “infinite multiplication” to HIDE (disguise) their self-contradiction.

Lies create the need for more lies, as any school-boy knows in practice when he finds some advantage in telling a lie.

Gods proliferate when gods replace God, and whenever the Church’s dogma is seen as “wrong” yet another god is created.

The “fun” part of observing non-Catholic religions is finding their self-contradictions and necessarily created gods.

 

[distracted]

) i doubt they would have made it a doctrine because the most important thing is the Real Presence, not how it gets there.
.

I tend to think/believe that the two always went together… I never saw them as separate.

Were you raised CAtholic?

Have you spent much time in the Real Presence?

 

[distracted]

I
In as much as any religion is congruent with the dogmas of the Church, they have “a point” and are “useful” for salvation purposes. Where they aren’t congruent with the Church they lead to self-contradictions

Very true and well-said… I don’t understand this:

held incorrectly as “truth”, DEMAND some variety of “infinite regress” or “infinite multiplication” to HIDE (disguise) their self-contradiction.

but i understand and appreciate this:

Lies create the need for more lies, as any school-boy knows in practice when he finds some advantage in telling a lie.

 

[catharina]

I would like to better know the people who come to these forums…

What religion were you raised in?

Are you now Catholic?

Why or why not?

Did you ever go away from Jesus… (in other words, were you ever a “goat”)?

What do you think about the Catholics’ belief of the Real Presence?

And anything else you would like to add… Thanks…

distracted, you’ve put your distractibility to great use in opening this terrific thread. Congrats!