Icons in the West

[East_and_West]

Through my membership at a Ruthenian Parish, my faith has been greatly enhanced by the veneration of icons. It is my understanding that there was a time when icons were venerated extensively in the west. I wonder if a return to this venerable tradition would help to foster a greater faith among Latins and help us to remedy the modernist crisis we are facing. any thoughts?

 

[Woodstock]

I don’t think so.

Have you seen some of the icons in use today? Everyone from your beloved cat to Malcom X the militant Muslim can be found on a “Christian” icon. It does no good to have means of expressing the faith if people don’t know or have a faith to express.

I’m not opposed to the Latin Church reviving its iconographic tradition but, like married clergy, I think it is no answer to what plagues the west and should stand on its own merits instead of parading around as some sort of panacea to what ills her.

 

[East_and_West]

I don’t think so.

Have you seen some of the icons in use today? Everyone from your beloved cat to Malcom X the militant Muslim can be found on a “Christian” icon. It does no good to have means of expressing the faith if people don’t know or have a faith to express.

I’m not opposed to the Latin Church reviving its iconographic tradition but, like married clergy, I think it is no answer to what plagues the west and should stand on its own merits instead of parading around as some sort of panacea to what ills her.

I was only suggesting it as one of the many things that could help us return to a more Patristic/Traditional expression of the faith. Perhaps i should have more clear.

 

[Woodstock]

I was only suggesting it as one of the many things that could help us return to a more Patristic/Traditional expression of the faith. Perhaps i should have more clear.

I understand that. I disagree that it would help return to a more traditional expression of the faith. I think it would be mostly abused as another way to distort the faith by infusing a modern liberalist agenda into it, as most western “iconographers” are now doing. I think it would hurt a return of iconography to the west more than it would help it to herald its use in the current climate.

I think the west needs catechesis first and when the people are catechized they’ll be able to live their faith. Only *then *could iconography stand on its own merits and be used as one of the means of reviving a traditional expression of the faith.

 

[East_and_West]

I understand that. I disagree that it would help return to a more traditional expression of the faith. I think it would be mostly abused as another way to distort the faith by infusing a modern liberalist agenda into it, as most western “iconographers” are now doing. I think it would hurt a return of iconography to the west more than it would help it to herald its use in the current climate.

I think the west needs catechesis first and when the people are catechized they’ll be able to live their faith. Only *then *could iconography stand on its own merits and be used as one of the means of reviving a traditional expression of the faith.

I agree that more than anything else, the west is in need of proper catechesis.

 

[ronyodish]

East and West,

I think that these Latin icons are pretty good. Did you have in mind a revival of this kind of iconography?

http://www.smarthistory.org/images/Giotto.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Giotto_-Scrovegni--36--Lamentation(The_Mourning_of_Christ).jpg/270px-Giotto_-Scrovegni--36--Lamentation(The_Mourning_of_Christ).jpg

God bless,

Rony

 

[East_and_West]

Honestly, I am not familiar with what Latin Iconography looks like. My only exposure is to the icons painted by Br. Claude at Mount Angel Abby. I am not sure how authentic they are.

 

[bpbasilphx]

** Everyone from your beloved cat to Malcom X the militant Muslim can be found on a “Christian” icon.**

Keep in mind that icons are an expression of the faith of the church. They are as liturgical as the 4 gospels.

Furthermore, there is more to iconography than mere technique.

Robert Lentz and his followers of Brige Builders to Hell! icons haven’t grasped these truths yet.

 

[Alexius]

There are many Roman Catholic Icons in Eastern Europe. Our Lady of Czestochowa and the Ostra Brama come to mind immediately. There is a famous icon in Hungary aswell. Icons are not absent from Latin tradition, they are just not are popular in Western Europe…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Actually, this is probably the more appropriate place to have posted a link that I just dropped into the thread on Monastery Icons.

It is to a restored post on iconography and includes a link to a beautiful site with photos of much early Latin iconography in medieval England. See here.

Many years,

Neil

 

[dessert]

Through my membership at a Ruthenian Parish, my faith has been greatly enhanced by the veneration of icons. It is my understanding that there was a time when icons were venerated extensively in the west. I wonder if a return to this venerable tradition would help to foster a greater faith among Latins and help us to remedy the modernist crisis we are facing. any thoughts?

Icons seem to need a lot of explaining but I like them

Here is a site that shows the diff versions of Saint Nicholas
and they are seriious looking.

ww.instaplanet.com/icon.html

 

[Ridgerunner]

I am in no way an expert on art. However, it does seem to me there is a distinction between icons and other Church art. Icons, I understand, are intended to “pull” the observer into another world; a sort of mystical world that will bring a closer union with God on a kind of wordless level. That, I understand, is why the figures’ eyes are often overlarge and dominate the icon. The idea is that the eyes will arrest the attention and draw the observer into that contemplative state. Nothing wrong with that.

Other Church art, however, particularly including Renaissance art, is more celebrative of the glory of God and the dignity of the human person. They are far more realistic, have few exaggerated features, and tend to draw the viewer into a vastness of space and time that is intended to communicate, the grandeur of the Divine, the holy and the soul, as well as the “human” dimension.

Both, of course, have been largely abandoned in “modern” Church decor, in favor of felt banners and weird, deformed and usually miniscule statuary.

 

[Woodstock]

I am in no way an expert on art. However, it does seem to me there is a distinction between icons and other Church art. Icons, I understand, are intended to “pull” the observer into another world; a sort of mystical world that will bring a closer union with God on a kind of wordless level. That, I understand, is why the figures’ eyes are often overlarge and dominate the icon. The idea is that the eyes will arrest the attention and draw the observer into that contemplative state. Nothing wrong with that.

A distinction is made between art with a religious theme and iconography, which is intended for use in worship. The icons attest to a spiritual reality. The large eyes are seeing the glory of God.

Both, of course, have been largely abandoned in “modern” Church decor, in favor of felt banners and weird, deformed and usually miniscule statuary.

I’m sure they exist here and there, but Eastern Catholic Churches do not, on average, have felt banners and statuary in place of iconography. That is a Roman Catholic phenomenon.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A distinction is made between art with a religious theme and iconography, which is intended for use in worship. The icons attest to a spiritual reality. The large eyes are seeing the glory of God.

I’m sure they exist here and there, but Eastern Catholic Churches do not, on average, have felt banners and statuary in place of iconography. That is a Roman Catholic phenomenon.

I’m not altogether sure I understand the distinction you are making between art with a religious theme and iconogray, intended for use in worship. I’m not doubting you see the distinction you point out, and I’m sure it has validity for you.

You are fortunate in having been spared the felt banners. I do see some good “Latin” architecture and decor recently. People like Henry Menzies and the head of the architecture dept at Notre Dame. Adam Stroik, I believe, is his name. I think the felt banner stuff is on the wane, and deservedly so.

 

[Woodstock]

I’m not altogether sure I understand the distinction you are making between art with a religious theme and iconogray, intended for use in worship. I’m not doubting you see the distinction you point out, and I’m sure it has validity for you.

The distinction I am making is that religious-themed art is intended to *remind *a person of a physical or spiritual reality. It is treated with respect. Icons are meant to make present a spiritual reality. They are venerated.