Icons & statues - A stumbling block?

[tsering]

Dear Christians:

Even though icons & statues are permitted as objects of veneration, do you think that they may be a stumbling block for some to come to the True Faith?

Being an ex-missionary in a predominantly Buddhist and/or Taoist nation, I have seen many man made images and statues used for the so called profitable purposes of meditation and merit.

After asking a friend (who is an ex-Tibetan Buddhist monk now turned evangelist for Christ) what he thought of the Tibetan Catholic community - he stated they looked too much like the religion he left to follow Christ. “They worship Mary, they have statues they worship, their monks are like Buddhist monks, they believe in merits, etc.” I asked if maybe he misunderstood them by saying they “worship” Mary and maybe it’s okay to honor her for her very special role in God’s plan of redemption, he said that was good, but that to him it looks like they’re worshiping her and the statues in their Churches.

Once when having a very intense conversation with an Israeli, he stated that Muslims were better than Christians, because at least Muslims still believed God was one and that they didn’t allow idols and images for worship.

This has also been (other than the trinity) a major objection of Muslims who I’ve tried to share the Gospel with during my travels.

Personally, I know the argument that they are not worshiped and are like pictures of passed away family members, but hey, Chinese also burn incense in front of passed away family members and call it ancestor worship.

If you asked a Buddhist, a Taoist, a Chinese, a Hindu if they really worshiped the image…they would say of course not. I would think some Hindus would say they don’t worship the statue, but the god it represents. But the Buddhist or Taoists or Chinese would say they were not worshiping the person it represented, but instead reflecting on that persons merits and meditating on their life for more personal merits.

 

[twopekinguys]

Dear Christians:

Even though icons & statues are permitted as objects of veneration, do you think that they may be a stumbling block for some to come to the True Faith?

Being an ex-missionary in a predominantly Buddhist and/or Taoist nation, I have seen many man made images and statues used for the so called profitable purposes of meditation and merit.

After asking a friend (who is an ex-Tibetan Buddhist monk now turned evangelist for Christ) what he thought of the Tibetan Catholic community - he stated they looked too much like the religion he left to follow Christ. “They worship Mary, they have statues they worship, their monks are like Buddhist monks, they believe in merits, etc.” I asked if maybe he misunderstood them by saying they “worship” Mary and maybe it’s okay to honor her for her very special role in God’s plan of redemption, he said that was good, but that to him it looks like they’re worshiping her and the statues in their Churches.

Once when having a very intense conversation with an Israeli, he stated that Muslims were better than Christians, because at least Muslims still believed God was one and that they didn’t allow idols and images for worship.

This has also been (other than the trinity) a major objection of Muslims who I’ve tried to share the Gospel with during my travels.

Personally, I know the argument that they are not worshiped and are like pictures of passed away family members, but hey, Chinese also burn incense in front of passed away family members and call it ancestor worship.

If you asked a Buddhist, a Taoist, a Chinese, a Hindu if they really worshiped the image…they would say of course not. I would think some Hindus would say they don’t worship the statue, but the god it represents. But the Buddhist or Taoists or Chinese would say they were not worshiping the person it represented, but instead reflecting on that persons merits and meditating on their life for more personal merits.

I wouldn’t say that the statues or Icons would be a stumbling block. I would say an individual’s perception of them would be the stumbling block.

In all my years of working with RCIA, statues and Icons come up alot. Many have a preconceived notion of the relevance of them, but once they learn about them from a Catholic perspective, the problem tends to fade away.

 

[tsering]

I wouldn’t say that the statues or Icons would be a stumbling block. I would say an individual’s perception of them would be the stumbling block.

In all my years of working with RCIA, statues and Icons come up alot. Many have a preconceived notion of the relevance of them, but once they learn about them from a Catholic perspective, the problem tends to fade away.

Sure, I get your point, but aren’t we supposed to be sensitive to the individual’s perception? For instance, Paul talks about things being permissible, but not always beneficial in the context of not making others stumble.

I’m not just talking about individuals. I’m talking about whole groups of people within certain religions:

Most Protestants (9% of world population), Muslims (21% of world population), and Jews have a hard time with putting candles in front of a statue in a worship setting (i.e. Church) no matter the explanation, because even though it’s not considered worship by Catholics, it sure looks a lot like it to these people.

Most Buddhists or Hindus may think the statues are just another god or deity of some kind within the plethora of other gods who must submit to some universal reality like Atman or Nirvana.

Israel had no image for God because He is invisible and not created. To them making something with human hands and calling it an accurate representation of God was blasphemy and idolatry. This is what made them distinct from the nations around them.

Okay, I know Jesus is the image of the invisible God, so if God makes an image of Himself, that is not an issue. But how do we know our paintings or statues are accurate portrayals?

Don’t misunderstand me. I completely understand and have accepted the Catholic idea of icons and statues…I’m just wondering if it can be a stumbling block to those who do not. Would a Catholic Church get rid of it’s icons and statues if it was called to reach out to the Muslim community? Or the Buddhist community for that matter? Or the Jews? It may be permissible to drink alcohol, but would drinking it make others stumble? (I’ve often heard in Muslim countries that many go a get alcohol from the Christians…is this a good witness?)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

For myself and those I know and love statues have never been an issue. What stumbling blocks I see the most from a personal standpoint and from others I know are:

indulgences
papal infallibility
papal supremacy
purgatory
infusion vs. imputation
faith vs. works

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Don’t misunderstand me. I completely understand and have accepted the Catholic idea of icons and statues…I’m just wondering if it can be a stumbling block to those who do not. Would a Catholic Church get rid of it’s icons and statues if it was called to reach out to the Muslim community?

I fugured that this was what you were saying but I wasn’t sure so I didn’t comment. Paul also said that preaching Christ crucified was a stumbling block.

“…but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles” 1 Cor 1:23

The truth is that Christianity (not just Catholicism in particular) is filled with stumbling blocks for unbelievers. If you were to jettison all the stumbling blocks in order to better reach people with the Gospel there would be no Gospel left, because the Gospel, Christ, offends. It offended me as an agnostic and it no offends others.

There is a reason that Christianity has lasted 2,000 years. It is because converts convert to it, not the other way around.

God bless you

 

[twopekinguys]

Don’t misunderstand me. I completely understand and have accepted the Catholic idea of icons and statues…I’m just wondering if it can be a stumbling block to those who do not. Would a Catholic Church get rid of it’s icons and statues if it was called to reach out to the Muslim community? Or the Buddhist community for that matter? Or the Jews? It may be permissible to drink alcohol, but would drinking it make others stumble? (I’ve often heard in Muslim countries that many go a get alcohol from the Christians…is this a good witness?)

I think your post boils down to the last paragraph, that is why I have snipped it.

No, I don’t think a Catholic church would get rid of it’s icons, statues, or pictures in order to make those of another faith comfortable.

That would be like me drowning in the ocean, and asking the lifeguard to hide his tattoos before he rescued me.

When John Paul II visited a mosque in Damascas, did they cover up anything that identified it as muslim? No. If you remember, he kissed the koran.

When John Paul II visited a Jewish Synagogue in Rome, did they cover up anything that identified the synagogue as Jewish? No.

So, bottom line here is why should Catholics bend to those of other religions regarding pictures, statues, symbols etc.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

For myself and those I know and love statues have never been an issue. What stumbling blocks I see the most from a personal standpoint and from others I know are:

indulgences
papal infallibility
papal supremacy
purgatory
infusion vs. imputation
faith vs. works

My point exactly. No doubt there are others who have even more stumbling blocks. Perhaps there are those who would agree with this list and add to it the “stumbling blocks” of the Trinity, or the Divinity of Christ. The virgin birth. Life after death. Pretty soon you start whittling it away and there is no more Christian faith, let alone Catholicism.

As a former agnostic my Christian “stumbling blocks” were:

One God
The Bible
Hell
Divinity of Christ
Sin (I am not going to list what actions that Christianity considered sin that I disagreed with so I will just broadly say sin)
virgin birth

And all of this is not to mention my Catholic stumbling blocks.

If you would have found me a Christianity while I was agnostic which jettisoned those “stumbling blocks” I mentioned above I would have been the first one at the door. The problem would have been though that it wouldn’t have been anything Christian.

God bless

 

[twopekinguys]

Okay, I know Jesus is the image of the invisible God, so if God makes an image of Himself, that is not an issue. But how do we know our paintings or statues are accurate portrayals?

It is called artistic interpretation. I don’t think that any artist, painter, sculpture, etc. ever implied that it was anything other than an artistic interpretation.

Take the Pieta for example. It is Michaelangelo’s artistic representation, or artists view of how the scene may have looked when Christ was removed from the Cross, it doesn’t mean it is 100% accurate.

 

[JonNC]

Dear Christians:

Even though icons & statues are permitted as objects of veneration, do you think that they may be a stumbling block for some to come to the True Faith?

Being an ex-missionary in a predominantly Buddhist and/or Taoist nation, I have seen many man made images and statues used for the so called profitable purposes of meditation and merit.

After asking a friend (who is an ex-Tibetan Buddhist monk now turned evangelist for Christ) what he thought of the Tibetan Catholic community - he stated they looked too much like the religion he left to follow Christ. “They worship Mary, they have statues they worship, their monks are like Buddhist monks, they believe in merits, etc.” I asked if maybe he misunderstood them by saying they “worship” Mary and maybe it’s okay to honor her for her very special role in God’s plan of redemption, he said that was good, but that to him it looks like they’re worshiping her and the statues in their Churches.

Once when having a very intense conversation with an Israeli, he stated that Muslims were better than Christians, because at least Muslims still believed God was one and that they didn’t allow idols and images for worship.

This has also been (other than the trinity) a major objection of Muslims who I’ve tried to share the Gospel with during my travels.

Personally, I know the argument that they are not worshiped and are like pictures of passed away family members, but hey, Chinese also burn incense in front of passed away family members and call it ancestor worship.

If you asked a Buddhist, a Taoist, a Chinese, a Hindu if they really worshiped the image…they would say of course not. I would think some Hindus would say they don’t worship the statue, but the god it represents. But the Buddhist or Taoists or Chinese would say they were not worshiping the person it represented, but instead reflecting on that persons merits and meditating on their life for more personal merits.

I accept the early councils teaching on iconoclasm, so no, they are not a stumbling block.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=gurneyhalleck1;6607725]For myself and those I know and love statues have never been an issue. What stumbling blocks I see the most from a personal standpoint and from others I know are:

indulgences
papal infallibility
papal supremacy
purgatory
infusion vs. imputation
faith vs. works

For me, particularly, the first 3.

Jon

 

[shondrea]

I remember Scott Hahn saying something about this, along the lines of how it’s all a matter in how we worship. A catholic sees worship as more than songs and prayer, so singing to a saint, Mary, etc and praying to them are not seen as worship to us, but it would to someone of another religion, where prayer is synonymous with worship

 

[SSTeacher]

Dear Christians:

Even though icons & statues are permitted as objects of veneration, do you think that they may be a stumbling block for some to come to the True Faith?

Probably. The veneration of icons was a stumbling block for me.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[TriuneUnity]

Probably. The veneration of icons was a stumbling block for me.

Cordially,
Mick

Because of the whole “second commandment” issue? Of course, I realize having icons/images and venerating them are two different things.

 

[tsering]

Probably. The veneration of icons was a stumbling block for me.

Cordially,
Mick

Mick, please explain how you were able to overcome this. I think your story would be enlightening :newidea: if not a good way to encourage some others to reconsider their ideas. I’m really hoping some Jews or Muslims will also comment on this post.

Peace

 

[JonNC]

Dear Christians:

Even though icons & statues are permitted as objects of veneration, do you think that they may be a stumbling block for some to come to the True Faith?

I didn’t notice this before. You’re sneeky, tsering!
Jon

 

[tsering]

I didn’t notice this before. You’re sneeky, tsering!
Jon

Not trying to be . I don’t believe Judaism holds the fullness of Truth…they do not believe Jesus is the Christ. I don’t believe Islam holds the fullness of Truth…they don’t believe Jesus is God. I don’t believe Buddhism holds the fullness of Truth…Gautama didn’t really like a God who requires a sacrifice or created a world with suffering and even if he accepted a God he believed that God should reach enlightenment just like every other being.

By True Faith…I mean the Church founded on Jesus.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6608216:

Probably. The veneration of icons was a stumbling block for me.

Cordially,
Mick

Because of the whole “second commandment” issue? Of course, I realize having icons/images and venerating them are two different things.

SSTeacher;6608216:

Probably. The veneration of icons was a stumbling block for me.

Cordially,
Mick

Mick, please explain how you were able to overcome this. I think your story would be enlightening :newidea: if not a good way to encourage some others to reconsider their ideas. I’m really hoping some Jews or Muslims will also comment on this post.

Peace

The first time I observed this veneration I didn’t know that it was called a metania. Orthodox Christians cross themselves in the opposite way to Catholics. So, imagine if you will, what I saw. The right hand ends up on the left shoulder and the sign of the cross then leads into the metania. The person (who is standing in front of the icon) bows, letting the right arm arc over and down to the right side – and then, if the person is able to get down far enough , he or she touches the floor with the right hand. That’s done twice following which the icon is kissed and then comes a third and final metania. It’s done slowly and so the gradual sweeping arc of the arm along with the bow creates a very graceful and attractive movement.

However, the first time I saw an Orthodox Christian venerate an icon it made me very uncomfortable. It vaguely suggested idolatry and also it seemed so ritualistic and therefore (to my mind) totally unnecessary. My immediate mental response? “Huh, well, I don’t think I want to do that!” And, of course, as a visitor I wasn’t required to do anything I didn’t want to do so I just watched everybody else venerating icons, Sunday after Sunday after Sunday.

I overcome my aversion (is that the right word?) as I gradually began to gain insight into Orthodoxy. Orthodox worship is very experiential. One stands throughout, sings, chants, makes the sign of the cross umpteen times, smells incense, and lights candles. It drew me in. I had to participate. Eventually, it seemed that not to participate was out of place.

And intrinsic to Orthodoxy is the presence of icons. If you’ve ever looked at an icon you’ll have noticed that it’s very “flat.” That two–dimensional image is purposeful. Icons are meant to look “other worldly.” That helped me a lot. And so I dared to venerate my first icon remembering that I was not worshipping an idol and that this was not the intention but that I was paying respect to the person depicted. And, of course, then I came to realize that icons are meant to teach us – they certainly teach children. I found it fascinating to watch parents bringing their young children – some as young as a few months! – to the icon and taking the child’s hand to make the sign of the cross and touching the child’s lips to the icon. The idea, of course, is to encourage by such action the lifting of the mind from earthly things to heavenly things. And because I was actually putting that idea into action, it rang true. So now, for me, the icons just fit in with the idea of “sacred space.” What initially seemed strange and disquieting has become familiar and comforting.

I guess it’s the same story in Catholicism? There are statues and Stations of the Cross and holy water? Genuflections and the sign of the cross? All of these things are meant to lift our thoughts from the material to the ethereal. So people are reverent and silent and prayerful. That’s how we ought to be in church, right? Not chatting and guffawing uproariously and slapping each other on the back.

How does this compare to what happens in Lutheran churches? Or does it depend upon the particular church? I’ve only ever been inside one Lutheran church and that was a few years ago.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[TriuneUnity]

How does this compare to what happens in Lutheran churches? Or does it depend upon the particular church? I’ve only ever been inside one Lutheran church and that was a few years ago.

Cordially,
Mick

Lutheran churches tend not to be as ornate as Catholic Churches. However, in a more traditional church, you probably won’t be able to tell the difference. I would say we have those images also to lift thoughts from the earthly to the heavenly. Although, the proper emphasis on this should be for word and sacrament, not artwork. But this is a pretty good example of a traditional Lutheran church:

http://www.osl.cc/ff/sanctpics/mtchrch7.jpg

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Isn’t there a picture of John Eck in the sacristy?

Lutheran churches tend not to be as ornate as Catholic Churches. However, in a more traditional church, you probably won’t be able to tell the difference. I would say we have those images also to lift thoughts from the earthly to the heavenly. Although, the proper emphasis on this should be for word and sacrament, not artwork. But this is a pretty good example of a traditional Lutheran church:

http://www.osl.cc/ff/sanctpics/mtchrch7.jpg

 

[TriuneUnity]

Isn’t there a picture of John Eck in the sacristy?

No, he’s hanging from the top of the nave LOL