Icons

[HagiaSophia]

Thank you all - this is really great - can someone tell me basically what are the differences between the various groups so that when you see one, you can kind of tell whether it is Slavic or Greek or Russian?

 

[prodromos]

http://www.olphnm.org/newImages/oglady.gif

This is a poor copy of the icon which does not follow the theological rules for iconography. The color of Mary’s inner and outer robe are reversed for example and for Orthodox, this is akin to rewriting the Gospels according to your own interpretation. Are you also aware that the original of the above icon was stolen from an Orthodox church in Crete in the 15th century before it later found its way to Rome?
Below are versions which are Orthodox
http://www.shadesoftime.net/main/imgs/orthodox_byzantine_icons/T47.jpg http://www.shadesoftime.net/main/imgs/eikon_icons/020.jpg

Note also the three stars on Mary’s outer robe, one on each shoulder and one above her forehead. These testify her ever-virginity, the fact the she was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ.

John

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

prodromos:

This is a poor copy of the icon which does not follow the theological rules for iconography.

What are the rules ?

The color of Mary’s inner and outer robe are reversed for example and for Orthodox, this is akin to rewriting the Gospels according to your own interpretation.

Not sure that is what the artist had in mind, we have many pictures of Our Lady, maybe we should only stick with one type.

Are you also aware that the original of the above icon was stolen from an Orthodox church in Crete in the 15th century before it later found its way to Rome?

I’m well aware of the fact that the original was stolen, since I have books on the story of the icon.

Note also the three stars on Mary’s outer robe, one on each shoulder and one above her forehead. These testify her ever-virginity, the fact the she was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ.

John

Those two smaller pictures you posted seem to be different, can you explain why ?
I’m not bothered one way or the other, they’re all beautiful pictures. I’m not one of those people that worries about if I’ve crossed the t’s or dot the i’s.

And we need to remember we aren’t praying to a picture, they’re like photographs of our loved ones, only there to remind us sometimes.

Ok thanks for the info, it all helps.

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

JGC:

May be of interest

oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/iconsmpoy.html

There sure is a lot of different versions of this picture “Our Lady of Perpetual Help”

According to my book the original was disected into 4 and shared like when the soldiers shared the tunic of Jesus, casting lots.
Anyway there were lots of copies made, and like language some expressions are lost in the translating.

Anyway as it says in this book, the reproductions in Western Europe differ in small ways from the original, but the central figures and the lesson of the picture remains the same.

 

[prodromos]

Stephen-Maguire:

What are the rules ?

From my first post in this thread

“Icons of Christ have him clothed in red with a blue cloak covering. Red dye was prohibitively expensive and only acessible to royalty or the very wealthy, while blue dye was very cheap and used by the common people. This represents Christ’s divine nature clothed in our humanity. Icons of Mary on the other hand show her clothed in blue with a red cloak covering. This represents her humanity as now being glorified, sharing in Christ’s divine nature.”

So depicting Mary with a red inner robe and blue outer robe is making quite a heretical statement according to the established tradition.

Those two smaller pictures you posted seem to be different, can you explain why ?

They are by different iconographers so they are not quite the same, but theologically they are identical.

I’m not bothered one way or the other, they’re all beautiful pictures. I’m not one of those people that worries about if I’ve crossed the t’s or dot the i’s.

Since Orthodox consider icons as scripture for the illiterate, we take a rather more strict stand on how they are produced.

And we need to remember we aren’t praying to a picture, they’re like photographs of our loved ones, only there to remind us sometimes.

Again, for Orthodox they are much more than this. They are vehicles of grace and as such are regarded as being holy. How many photographs of loved ones do you know that heal sick people, stream myhrr, bleed or even speak?

John.

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

prodromos:

How many photographs of loved ones do you know that heal sick people, stream myhrr, bleed or even speak?

John.

None, but I don’t think it’s the pictures that heal, rather it is God and the faith we put in Him.
God does however use these channels like Holy icons and relics to channel His Grace.
What if one of my loved ones was a Canonized Saint and someone was healed through their picture ?

Anyway I’m not getting bogged down in a sensless discussion, as we have Jesus in the Divine Mercy picture clothed in white, and Mary has been depicted in many different ways.
We have the Black Madonna etc:

http://www.library.ubc.ca/spcoll/kells.jpg

Here in Ireland we have the Book of Kells above.nd.edu/~medvllib/facsintro/kells51.html

snake.net/people/paul/kells/

liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/sc/kells/kells.htm

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

Anyway prodromos your right it would be better if we stuck to the originals, I’ll have to make a point of getting one with Mary in the original colours.
This image and so many others are very powerful, they’re touched by the hand of God.
Heres a picture that I fell in Love with about 2 years ago when I saw it in my local Saint Michaels book shop, I just had to buy it.
It was painted by Mother Marie Therese of the Holy Face of Jesus, after He had revealed Himself to her in His Passion.
She used to say “May we become like Him in His paitence,meekness and humility”.​

Holy Face, by Marie Therese foundress of the Family of Adoration, 63 Falls Road Belfast.
http://www.splashbulb.com/shared/001/66/43/921925_7_1.jpg
It’s seen here on my livingroom wall.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Chris, Lisa, Hagia,

After glancing thru my bookmarked sites, I realize that there were at least 4 which I neglected to to post previously:

This site shows illustrations of many of the icons in the Patriarchal Church at Constantinople, as well as describing them in detail: Iconographic Treasures of the Ecumenical Patriarchate

This article describes many of the stylisms used in iconography:Sacred Images

Although by a Western iconographer, the following is a well-written piece and contains excellent information: About Icons

There is an online guide to Byzantine iconography that is a bit unique in that it has a section illustrating and explaining uncanonical icons, those that fail to follow the unwritten canons that have been passed down through time.

An excellent series of articles from the Mariology Center at the University of Dayton shows icons illustrative of many features incorporated into them. My only quibble with these otherwise excellent pieces is the one in which it alludes to there being only 3 schools of iconography, Byzantine, Macedonian, and Russian: Icons

Another excellent source for icons is Tregubov Studios, which sells the iconography of its founder, Father Alexander Tregubov.

Some additional tidbits of info.

Mosaic icons are not uncommon among the Arabs and Italo-Greeks.

St. Luke is ordinarily considered to have been the first iconographer and the Theotokos to have been his subject.

The Shroud of Turin, Veronica’s Veil, and the Mandilion are deemed to be acheiropoietai or icons “not made by human hands”.

An iconographer doesn’t sign his or her work, as to do so is to take credit for God’s inspiration, as transmitted through the hands of His servant, the iconographer.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Hagia Sophia:

can someone tell me basically what are the differences between the various groups so that when you see one, you can kind of tell whether it is Slavic or Greek or Russian?

Hagia,

I tried to recheck these links from my bookmarks, to make certain all were still active. If any of them don’t work, let me know.

For Greek iconographic style, I’d look back to the links that JGC offered above.

As to Slav style, look to the links I gave earlier to Ray and Dave Mastroberte in particular.

Bulgarian Iconography - My personal description would be that Bulgarian icons use gilt more generously, are unusually busy in detail, and are somewhat less stylized - more humanized - than others.

Embroidered Iconography is primarily a traditional Russian and Ukrainian usage. Presbytera Galina Tregubov writes beautiful pieces in this medium.

Both Czech and Slovakian Icons tend to a folk art style. (There is a site with particularly wonderful examples of both Czech and Russian iconography, broken out into icons of the Theotokos, Saints, etc, but I can’t find the link .)

Serb iconography has, to my untrained eye, some particularity in the look of the eyes and noses that I find lets me identify it from other styles.

Greek, Russian, and Arabic styles of iconography, with specific differences among them noted, are illustrated side-by-side in a brief piece on the site of the Melkite Eparchy of Newton.

Maronite iconography was pretty much lost in the extreme latinization of that Church by French Latin missioners and you’re more likely to find statues than icons in many Maronite churches. Efforts to revive a style have produced what always appears, to me, to be a somewhat bland facial display. There has also been some departure from traditional subject matter.

Byzantine iconographic style is probably the one most familiar to the Western eye. There are some excellent examples on this page.

Russian iconography often uses brighter colors than other styles, although antique icons themselves are often considerably darkened by centuries of candle smoke and incense.

Coptic iconography has a “new” and “old” style. To my own eye, the new style is not so “gentle” (for lack of a better word) as the old… This commercial gallery offers a good visual comparison of the two.

Ethiopian icons are frequently painted on diptychs or triptychs, rather than single panels. They tend to use perhaps the most brilliant color palette found among any of the styles and many have a folk art style to them.

Mosaic iconography is very common among the Armenians.

Georgian iconography tends to a softness, with older examples being best described as primitive art. This Church also has a strong history of enameled icons. (patience - the page to which I linked is very slow to load)

Interestingly, although the Mandellion, the first Icon-Not-By-Human-Hands, is attributed to Assyria, there is no real history of iconography among the Assyrians and Chaldeans.

Obviously, there are as many styles or schools of iconography as there are Eastern Churches and many have varied styles from different periods. If I missed some tradition in which you’re particularly interested, just ask.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

prodomos:

From my first post in this thread

“Icons of Christ have him clothed in red with a blue cloak covering. Red dye was prohibitively expensive and only acessible to royalty or the very wealthy, while blue dye was very cheap and used by the common people. This represents Christ’s divine nature clothed in our humanity. Icons of Mary on the other hand show her clothed in blue with a red cloak covering. This represents her humanity as now being glorified, sharing in Christ’s divine nature.”

So depicting Mary with a red inner robe and blue outer robe is making quite a heretical statement according to the established tradition.

John,

I would disagree with you in one respect. The symbolic usage of color can and does vary between and among iconographic traditions. Slavish adherence to one particular style would potentially deprive one of much beauty and holiness that is writ within iconography.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Lisa_N]

Neil thank you for taking the time to post the links. I have some studying to do. I appreciate the number and variety of sources.

Lisa N

 

[slyboots]

Are we talking about the monastery out on Coltrane??? I have two icons from there. One of St Michael and one of St Gabriel. What can I do? Is it possible to have them blessed by a priest?
I live in the OKC area and sold their icons at a local bookstore. Also we bought the bread they baked.
Years ago I had visited and knew the property on which they lived when it belonged to the Hindu group. But I didn’t recognize the brothers there as the same folks. And I sure didn’t know about any black arts activities there.
What can I do with my St Michael and St Gabriel? I have had them for almost 20 years.

 

[painter]

FYI

St. Michael Institute of Sacred Art, at St. Edmund’s Retreat, Enders Island, Mysitc, CT, has classes to learn to write icons. The link is below. The instructors are icon writers.

endersisland.com/iconography