Icons

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Im looking to find some early icons/paintings of Jesus Christ from the early centuries of the Roman Church/Latin West.

Does anyone know any websites where i can see some.

I cant find anything.
 
Thanks Marie,

My reason for wanting to see early images from the west is to see how Christ is shown giving his blessing.

Like what form or shape his hands are in.

For example whenever i see an icon from a Byzantine rite church which includes Greeks ,Rusians,Serbs ,Arabs etc and most of the Eastern Churches it shows Christ forming his right hand and fingers in the Greek letters of IC XC which means Jesus Christ.

Now when Christ was on earth amongst us ,did he bless people or his disciples with his hands? And if so i find it hard to believe that he would have done so forming his hand into greek letters.

Why Greek?

And greeks were not even converted to Christianity when Christ was amongst us.

Also in the Byzantine icons ,Latin Bishop Saints are also shown to be blessing with their hands using the Greek IC XC with their fingers.

Did the Byzantine rite exist within the Roman Church in the time of Gregory the Great or Augustine of Hippo or Ambrose of Milan and even in Bishop Saints of England.

Did these english and Latin bishops use Greek traditions and customs?

Also in another byzantine icon of the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary,the Archangel Gabriel is shown approaching the Virgin Mary blessing her again with his hand in the form of IC XC ,greek letters.

I cant possibly believe that the Angel Gabriel would have used this form of blessing with his hand even before Christ had been born and while Greeks were still Pagans at that time.

Why on earth would he have used or adopted Greek to aid in his blessing of the Virgin.

Can anyone comment…

thanks
 
Hi “Light”. You’re welcome for the site. There are some very early images. Including one “pagan” image (an image, created by pagan nonbelievers; That one kind of upset me). And, as I said… I don’t know how accurate the accompanying information is.

To answer your question… “did he bless people or his disciples with his hands?”… we hear in Holy Scripture… “Now He led them out towards Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. And it came to pass as He blessed them, that He parted from them and was carried up into Heaven.” (Luke 24:50-52)…

So, we are told, that yes… Our Lord did use His sacred hands, to bless His followers. There is nothing (that I could find), however… that specifies His using a Greek format blessing. My feeling, is that perhaps the Greek images and language were used, because during the time of St. Paul (not too long, after the Ascension of Jesus)… Greek (Gentile) conversions were numerous. I believe that St. Luke, also… was a Gentile (although, I don’t know if he was specifically, Greek). The Greeks were also prolific, artistically. So… it sort of follows that Our Lord would be portrayed in this way. Of course, this is only my opinion. I’m hoping that someone more knowledgeable can give better facts. I’m just kind of using my limited logic.

There is no information, that I am aware of… that states that “greeks were not even converted to Christianity when Christ was amongst us”… It may well have been, that there were many Greeks present… during Christ’s earthly ministry. But again, I don’t know the facts. These are just my own feelings.

As far as the Angel Gabriel, depicted in art as using the IC XC in a blessing… I would imagine that this could be possible. The reason being simple. Jesus existed in Heaven, with the Father and the Son… from all eternity. He existed before the Angel Gabriel… and before His Blessed Mother. So, Gabriel might have used the IC XC blessing. We can’t really know for sure, because there isn’t any Scriptural evidence of this. Again, my feeling… that Gabriel’s blessing was depicted this way… by Greek artists, using the formats (language) that they knew.

I hope this wasn’t too confusing. My thoughts tend to ramble sometimes.😊 God bless.
 
CORRECTION:

“Jesus existed in Heaven, with the Father and the Son… from all eternity”.

I meant to say, Jesus existed in Heaven, with the Father and the Holy Spirit… from all eternity.
 
Hi Marie ,God Bless,

I have also seen now Byzantine icons of even the Old Testament Prophets blessing using these Greek letters,

come on now …am i really that dumb to really believe that they would have used Greek and blessed like this…

I see this as you said that this is the way the Greek artists have depicted these things,but why pollute the truth of the Faith in Christ where within Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek and convert even Old Testament Jewish Hebrew Saints ,Angels from heaven ,Latin Saints and even the Ancient of Days Christ God to Hellenism.

I think this is a bit too much…I am trying to see if there are icons with this form of blessing being used by Christ or anyone else even before God caused the muddling up of languages with the tower of Babel story.

So what, even before the different languages existed on earth between the Humans ,Christ was still using Greek? A language and race that didnt even exist on earth?

Or maybe Greek is the Unerversal language used in heaven by Christ and the Angels even before the creation of the Earth,seeing its ok to see the Archangel Gabriel or God Himself Blessing using Greek Letters.

AAHHH
 
Hi Light. I really don’t know much about Byzantine icons (if anything). I think I’ll have to “Google” that subject, later. You’ve got me curious now! 😉

As for the Greek artists… (again my feeling)… but I don’t believe that there was an intent to pollute the truth of the faith… by using their cultural styles in Christian art. I find it just as logical for the early Greek converts to use their language and cultural styles in Christian materials (art, reading… etc)… as I find it for American Catholics, to have an english (or spanish) translation of the Holy Bible.

I’m sorry, but I don’t know whether or not there are any icons in existence, which depict Our Lord using the “Greek” blessing. But I’m certain that before different languages existed… and before time began… that Christ knew the Greek language. Because He is God… and every moment of history is present to Him. I don’t know if there is a Universal language used in Heaven. Interesting thought, though. I have read that Our Lady (in her many apparitions… Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.) uses the native language of the visionary. So, perhaps… many languages are spoken in Heaven.

I hope someone more knowledgeable will give you better responses. God bless. 🙂
 
Hi again Marie,

Here is a website which shows all Western Saints from early centuries till later.Scroll down and then click on whichever Saint to see the icons.

allmercifulsavior.com/icons/Western.html

Translations of the Bible,Church Services or the language used on Sacred images and icons may be whatever language you desire.

But icons are also believed to be ‘windows to Heaven’.
A depiction of truth,as God Himself is Truth.
Are we looking at truth to see Old Testament Jewish Prophets blessing using the aid of Greek.

Why would they have used Greek?

Why would the Angel Gabriel have used Greek?
Greeks being Pagans as well at that time.

Why would the Lord God Creator of all men used the Greek to bless?

If this is not true why depict something that is not true?
Especially about God and his Saints and Angels.

I have been to bible class at a Greek Church where the Theologian would preach that the Greekness of Greeks has mixed in with Christ and become one with Christ.

Christs flesh and body was born from a Jew ,but does it mix in with his Eternal Divine Essence ? The Heavenly Spiritual Divine Holy Energy of God Himself being lowered to call him something that was born from the results of Wickedness in man which causes divisions and seperation.

The Devil is the great Divider.

In mostly all Eastern Byzantine Churches ,they are full of Icons of Christ with his hand blessing using the greek letters IC XC ,the fingers form these letters if you didnt know.

I am also aware of Christ knowing all languages before they were used by man ,but seems like its all Greek influence to me ,and my arguement is just that it may not be true depictions of how these angels or non greek saints or God Himself may have blessed especially in times where i cant see any reason for Greek to be favored above any other form of blessing or language.

The way an Orthodox layman can bless is by joining his thumb and first two fingers,then putting the last two down into the palm.

This Formation of the hand represents the Holy Trinity with the three fingers ,and the two natures of Christ in the World with the Last two fingers into the palm.

This structure of the Fingers doesnt use any favored language but has Spiritual meaning about our Faith.

But the way the clergy and icons bless adopt earthly human languages and why should Christ and his Angels and Saints favor one language over all the Others.

Sure Bless me with the Name of Christ but does the whole of Heaven have to use Greek for Gods sake.i dont get it…
 
I think it is important to keep in mind what the intent of icons is. Historical accuracy and realism is not the intent of icons. Quite the contrary - they were intended to convey God’s reality and not ours. They are intended to be out of proportion and sometimes to the point of being cartoonish not because the artist did not have the talent to make them look real - but to convey the message that God’s view of reality is clouded by our world and what we see is just a shadow and not reality. Icons are created to give us a spiritual view over appearances. The Saint or Lord depicted is intended to convey an “other-worldliness” by intent.

In the west our culture has bent more toward realism - in the east it has been more toward the spiritual lessons. Attempting to force an icon to fit into a western cultural mindset may be our problem. We will not find historical reality in icons. Any resemblance to what we think of as historical accuracy are coincidental and subservient to the spiritual intent of the icon.
 
Christ Himself,the Angels in heaven,and all the Saints of the Old and New Testament all Flavored with and by Hellenism.

Sorry but I dont see that as Gods reality,or the reality of ‘the other world’ the Kingdom of Heaven.

As i stated before ,the icons are believed to be ‘windows to heaven’ .

Seems that Greek must definetely be the desired and most favored language way up there in those heavens,i think we should all to get ourselves to Greek school quick smart so we can get a head start before we enter those Heavens…
 
When mixing in greek-nationalism with icons, I think we’re getting into another topic. And I think we would agree on that. I think our Orthodox friends have suffered some nationalistic tendencies that confuse church and state - (hoping this does not turn into another Orthodox/RC argument…)

But, aside from that, a ‘window into heaven’ is indeed the point. We do not see reality, we see only shadows. Icons are intended to remind us that what we see is not as “real” as the spiritual world which we cannot see. This is an issue with our Protestant friends as well who wonder how we can pray to saints at all - and I say because what we cannot see is even more “real” than what we can see. The saint is more alive than you or I. An orthodox might say a saint has reached divination whereas we are still only approaching it. And I think looking for historical accuracy in an icon is rather like the issue of attempting to read science into Genesis. Icons are no more intended to be documents of history than Genesis is intended to convey a scientific explanation of creation. Force-fitting approaches cause us to miss the point.
 
Heres a page talking about Icons.

orthodoxphotos.com/readings/Orthodox_Church/icons.shtml

Here it says-

Icons served a many-fold purpose in the Orthodox Church. They were used to help teach the faithful about God. A person can walk into an Orthodox Church and see the whole Bible story unfolded on its walls. Icons of Old and New Testament people and events were used to teach the faithful-keeping in mind that many could not read- about the Christian Faith.

What are the Byzantine Icons trying to teach the Christians when they depict Archangels ,all the Saints of the Old and New Testament and God Himself always blessing using the Greek language while even when Greeks were Pagans.

Do we learn the truth about Christianity and the True God when we see Icons which are supposed to teach us about the Faith,and about God who said"I AM THE TRUTH" ,when we see them depicting things that may not be true .

Did the Jewish Old Testament Prophets bless using the Greek language? No? then why are we taught through these icons that that is how they blessed.

Why are drawn like that?

If they did not bless like that ,then these icons will be teaching falseness,lies and spiritual deception.

When i began this thread ,i only asked to find some depictions of Christ from the Early centuries in Rome ,with a modern depiction from Rome,an Orthodox may say “since the Roman Church is not Orthodox ,neither is the depiction of Christ” Orthodox meaning Correct and right regarding the faith and worship ,of Christ.But since the Orthodox will agree that up till 1054 Rome was indeed “Orthodox” then i guess it would be ‘correct’ or ‘right’ to pray before an icon or image of Christ from Rome before 1054 who may not be forming his hands into Greek Letters because the painter was not a Greek!

madness…
 
**Now when Christ was on earth amongst us ,did he bless people or his disciples with his hands? And if so i find it hard to believe that he would have done so forming his hand into greek letters.

Why Greek?

And greeks were not even converted to Christianity when Christ was amongst us…

Also in another byzantine icon of the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary,the Archangel Gabriel is shown approaching the Virgin Mary blessing her again with his hand in the form of IC XC ,greek letters.

I cant possibly believe that the Angel Gabriel would have used this form of blessing with his hand even before Christ had been born and while Greeks were still Pagans at that time.**

**First off, Christ has been amoing us since the Incarnation.

Next: What language do you think He spoke to the Syro-Phonecian woman or Pontius Pilate or the Centurion or other Gentiles in? Greek was the lingua franca in that part of the world since Alexander the Great. EVERYONE had to speak some Greek to get along.

Next, at least in the Byzantine-Slavic tradition of Iconography, icons are not supposed to show literal historical details, We know them from tradition and the Bible. Nor do icons show things as they appear in this present natural world. (I recall an icon of the Birth of the Theotokos with a cradle that would never be able to rock or do anything except fall over.) They show SPIRITUAL truths, not mere historical ones. While the Archangel blessing the Theotokos in the Christogram (as its called) may be anachronistic, it’s a mere artistic convention.**

Did the Byzantine rite exist within the Roman Church in the time of Gregory the Great or Augustine of Hippo or Ambrose of Milan and even in Bishop Saints of England.

**The Byzantine Rite no more existed in the Roman Church than the Latin Rite existed in the Syriac Churches. Then or ever

However, did you know that as a deacon, St. Gregory was papal legate to the Patriarch of Constantinople (he wasn’t called Ecumenical Patriarch at that point), so he would have been familiar with the services there.

And I really doubt that Augustine would have introduced the Roman Rite into Africa, whose liturgy (as far as we can tell) was definitely Western in form, but not Roman.

In closing, I’ll point out here that east and west were much closer spiritually in the tenth century than they were in the twelfth and later centuries in spirituality and worship.
**
 
I suppose we could depict OT saints communicating in Hebrew in order to be historically accurate but then it would not be relevant to the audience I would be trying to reach - the english/latin/german/albanian- speaking public who does not generally speak ancient hebrew. Historical accuracy is not the point, the message is the point - and artists are limited to the common language of their audience.

We could also, I suppose, ask why saints in western art are so often depicted with visible haloes. I do not really think that everybody who noticed Joseph and Mary knew them to be the royal family because they had a visible glow about their heads 😃 . But it does convey a message to the audience for which it is intended.

How some might misuse the symbols is a separate issue. All symbols are prone to abuse since a symbol means whatever we want to make it mean. A St. Andrew’s cross means one thing to a Presbyterian, another to a Russian, and still another to somebody in the southern US. The meaning is attached to culture and context and the intent of its creator.
 
Lets say i am a Publisher of a Russian Newspaper,

Before the Photos and pictures of Patriarch Alexis conducting a Holy Liturgy for Pascha lets say are published whatever,

I myself edit the photos and with a computer put a gold earing on his ear,and also edit his hand to show his hand blessing in the same way that a Roman Catholic Bishop Blesses.

Now this all gets published,and people cause an uproar trying to discover if in reality and in truth the Patriarch did have an earing on or Bless in an un Orthodox manner.

So im just saying that what really happened During that liturgy is not accurately displayed in those Pictures and Photos and may even cause some poor people to become disillusioned with what the truth is.

And I dont believe Patriarch Alexis would be too pleased about it as well.

So you admit that the Angel icon is an anachronism ,and it didnt actually happen that way.

And what about this Old Priestly Blessing from the Jews belonging to the true God-

altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsbirkat.htm

So then a Christian paints this Archangel event and depicts an iccurate account of what really happened ,but if thats not enough you also claim it to be a SPIRITUAL reality.

Yes ,i think we should focus our beliefs more on Spiritual realities than earthly.

But why i dont i just start my own Church,and paint icons of Jesus Christ in the form of a women.

And i will say ,brothers dont worry about what earhly history or facts say,this icon here of Christ as a women is Spiritual truth.please just concentrate on the icon and pray to it and learn and be taught the Spiritual truths of our faith from it.

But no as we know and believe,when Christ was on earth ,he was born a man ,so what would we do with those other Spiritual Decieving icons which claim to Show us Spiritual truth?
 
Christs flesh and body was born from a Jew ,but does it mix in with his Eternal Divine Essence

The Fourth Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon says that His human and divine natures are preserved WITHOUT MINGLING OR MIXTURE OR CONFUSION, but each maintaining its own properties.
 
From a text on the history of icons:

“Their pictorial language is stylized and primarily symbolic, rather than literal and narrative. Indeed, every attitude, pose, and color depicted in an icon has a precise meaning, and their painters–usually monks–followed prescribed models from iconographic manuals.”

Perhaps, to understand the symbolic intent of the “attitude, pose, and color” of the person depicted in the icon, it would be beneficial to study those same manuals. There are plenty you can find by searching Amazon and then going to the library with your list of books you found :).
 
MarieVeronica said:
. I don’t know if there is a Universal language used in Heaven. Interesting thought, though. I have read that Our Lady (in her many apparitions… Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.) uses the native language of the visionary. So, perhaps… many languages are spoken in Heaven.
Click to expand...
I was thinking about this just recently and here’s what I think. I have been told that one form of speaking in tongues is when one person speaks in one language and another understands in his own language. Perhaps that is what language is like in heaven.
 
Iconography and Western Art, are different forms of art altoghther.

Iconography was used in the East, as a means of teaching and reflecting on scripture, and spiritual meanings. The paintings were done according to standards, in order that they could be interpreted by all who looked at them. Mary is often painted with an egg-shaped head, which symbolizes her giving birth to the new life we receive in Jesus Christ. In one icon, she is holding the infant Jesus, and her left hand is cupped toward Jesus, point to the observer that Jesus is the way.

Western art forms, show scripture in a more literal sense. We see scenes of various gospel events, as the artist would’ve envisioned them. These forms influenced the West so much, that we ended up with historically false notions of Biblical events.

Jim
 
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