ID is not a valid scientific hypothesis, so ID should not be taught in science class

[JDaniel]

I haven’t found it to be that way at all. It reads to me as an ordinary book written by human beings a long time ago before we knew much of anything about the world. As far as it being God’s letter to his children, it made me wonder why God would decide to make Shakespeare a better writer than himself.

Now, Leela, you know better than that. Warpspeed has told you many times that the Bible is not simply a book. Rather, it is a “compilation”. It is a compilation of writings, by hundreds of people, whose separate lives spanned thousands of years, and who lived in separate parts of the world. A good example is in the Book of Genesis. Chapter I of the Book of Genesis, tells the creation story. but, it is a much more recent version than version 2 found in Chapters II and III. IOW, Chapters II and III present a much older version of the story. So, here we have, very early on, two different versions, written many years apart, by two different writers. What is most interesting about these two versions is how corroborative they are of each other.

Over the course of time, many have tried to invalidate the Bible, calling it a fabrication. Unfortunately, for those more serious people than you and I, someone found some scrolls, known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. These scrolls validated the veracity of the translations of many of the original documents found in the compilation. IOW, the Bible books were neither fabricated nor falsified.

Few want to confront this issue. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls restores the long since washed away footprint in the sand of the God that was merely rumor.

jd

 

[matahari]

Evolution is a lie which undermines Christian belief . It also has a negative effect on human behaviour as it seeks to replace conscience with its own slogan " Survival of the Fittest" Karl Marx, the spiritual Father of communism was a friend and strong adherent of Darwin. He wrote that Darwin’s book contains the basis in Natural History for our views. His disciple, Lenin applied ruthlessness and terror in Russia and has been aptly linked to the term “Rivers of Blood” Joseph Stalin, the world’s worst mass murderer studied at Tbilisi Theological College. A friend later said that Stalin became an atheist after reading Darwin. After understanding that Evolution provided no basis for conscience or morals he felt ftee to torture and murder to whatever extent to achieve his communist goals. Adolf Hitler - formed his racial and social policies on the evolutionary ideas of “survival of the fittest” and the superiority of certain “Favoured Races” as in the subtitle of Darwin’s book] Hitler’s reign resulted in the murder of six million Jews, many blacks gypsies and retarded people and other groups deemed “unfit to live” The evolutionary science of Eugenics gave him the justification for his decrees. Then there was Pol Pot . From 1975 he led the Khmer Rouge to genocide against his own people. His bloodthirsty regime was inspired by Stalin and Mao Zedung. Chairman Mao regarded Charles Darwin and his disciple Huxley as his two favourite authors ! The same disregard for human life has led to the slaughter of many millions of unborn children and the current big push for euthanasia.

 

[Leela]

I’m an engineer with much less statistics background than you have. I see what you’re saying, but what if the same person won the lottery 100 million times in a row. You would probably think that something non-random was going on. Perhaps that the lottery was designed such that this person would win all the time.

You certainly might. But no one thinks that evolution is a random process.

 

[Leela]

Now, Leela, you know better than that. Warpspeed has told you many times that the Bible is not simply a book. Rather, it is a “compilation”. It is a compilation of writings, by hundreds of people, whose separate lives spanned thousands of years, and who lived in separate parts of the world. A good example is in the Book of Genesis. Chapter I of the Book of Genesis, tells the creation story. but, it is a much more recent version than version 2 found in Chapters II and III. IOW, Chapters II and III present a much older version of the story. So, here we have, very early on, two different versions, written many years apart, by two different writers. What is most interesting about these two versions is how corroborative they are of each other.

Over the course of time, many have tried to invalidate the Bible, calling it a fabrication. Unfortunately, for those more serious people than you and I, someone found some scrolls, known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. These scrolls validated the veracity of the translations of many of the original documents found in the compilation. IOW, the Bible books were neither fabricated nor falsified.

Few want to confront this issue. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls restores the long since washed away footprint in the sand of the God that was merely rumor.

That’s exactly how it reads to me–as a very old book pieced together from the writings of a large number of people over time. I see nothing that strikes me as supernatural in origin. There is nothing that could not have been written by human beings living in the time they were living in.

 

[Leela]

Evolution is a lie which undermines Christian belief . It also has a negative effect on human behaviour as it seeks to replace conscience with its own slogan " Survival of the Fittest" Karl Marx, the spiritual Father of communism was a friend and strong adherent of Darwin. He wrote that Darwin’s book contains the basis in Natural History for our views. His disciple, Lenin applied ruthlessness and terror in Russia and has been aptly linked to the term “Rivers of Blood” Joseph Stalin, the world’s worst mass murderer studied at Tbilisi Theological College. A friend later said that Stalin became an atheist after reading Darwin. After understanding that Evolution provided no basis for conscience or morals he felt ftee to torture and murder to whatever extent to achieve his communist goals. Adolf Hitler - formed his racial and social policies on the evolutionary ideas of “survival of the fittest” and the superiority of certain “Favoured Races” as in the subtitle of Darwin’s book] Hitler’s reign resulted in the murder of six million Jews, many blacks gypsies and retarded people and other groups deemed “unfit to live” The evolutionary science of Eugenics gave him the justification for his decrees. Then there was Pol Pot . From 1975 he led the Khmer Rouge to genocide against his own people. His bloodthirsty regime was inspired by Stalin and Mao Zedung. Chairman Mao regarded Charles Darwin and his disciple Huxley as his two favourite authors ! The same disregard for human life has led to the slaughter of many millions of unborn children and the current big push for euthanasia.

Even if Darwinism were somehow the cause of such horrors, it would have nothing to do with whether or not Darwinism is true.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Barbarian suggests:
Let’s test that idea. Show me a science textbook that denies God, or a public school that has denial of God in the curriculum. It appears that there have been far more agenda-driven theistic teachers who have imposed their ideas on students than atheistic ones. There are far more theistic teachers, after all.

Barb, now that’s some real science! How old are you?

Older than I like to think.

Barbarian observes:
Selective perception, it seems. Show me a school that actively tried to turn children into atheists. I’ll show you some examples of those who tried to make them conform to the administration’s religious beliefs.

You are changing my position again. You can’t be serious.

Quite serious.

**Mr. and Mrs. Willis have taken their concerns and complaints to all levels of school personnel and the school board during the last few years. Their efforts have been in vain. In response to a complaint from Mrs. Willis in April of this year, Superintendent John Key suggested that the continual harassment would end if the Willis family would convert to Christianity.

One teacher, in response to Mrs. Willis’ plea, explained “If parents will not save souls, we have to.”

The following are examples of the religious persecution suffered by the Willis children and the entanglement of the Pike County school system with religion. Included in the lawsuit are:

–The Willis children were forbidden to wear Star of David lapel pins. The teacher claimed the Star of David was a gang symbol. Other children in class were wearing crosses.

–The Willis children were forbidden to participate in physical education class while wearing their yarmulkes.

–Two of the Willis children have been physically assaulted by their classmates because of their religion. On one occasion one of the children was beaten by five or six other students.

–Swastikas have been drawn on their lockers, bookbags and jackets. Their yarmulkes, worn on High Holy Days, have been ripped off their heads and used to play “keep away.” **
holysmoke.org/sdhok/jewish.htm

In America, at least, theists have been far more guilty of this kind of thing than atheists. And I am embarrassed to admit it. I can only point out that I’m unaware of any Catholics doing persecution on this scale in American public schools.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Even if Darwinism were somehow the cause of such horrors, it would have nothing to do with whether or not Darwinism is true.

But it’s not. To find the Nazi agenda, you will need to go to Martin Luther’s “The Jews and Their Lies”, in which about 90 percent of the “Final Solution” is proposed by Luther. And the Nazis freely admitted it was Luther who had inspired them.

Stalin, as you probably know, outlawed Darwinism in Soviet science, instead promoting the quack theories of Trofim Lysenko.

Sooner or later people with a agenda, play the Nazi card. Can’t help themselves.

 

[ricmat]

You certainly might. But no one thinks that evolution is a random process.

I’ve seen several atheists argue that it is a random process. I was taught in school that random mutations create new entities on which natural selection can filter out the best ones for the current environment. Some would argue that the natural selection part makes the whole evolution thing not random. But I think a more interesting question is the “random mutation” part of the equation. By “random mutations”, I’m talking about an unguided, undirected, unplanned mutation process which cannot see into the future.

Mutations can occur from DNA copying errors, radiation strikes, etc. I think you believe that such things are not guided or planned such that a particular outcome occurs (which would be consistent with “random mutations.” )

Before natural selection can pick a “winner” suitable for a new environment, these random mutations must actually occur. Especially if you have complex life to begin with, mutations are much more likely to break something that works than provide a small portion of an improvement in which thousands of such increments are necessary for the improvement to come into existence. And given the long gestation cycles of advanced life, and relatively small populations, it seems obvious to me that…to use a humorous example…we aren’t going to see any X-Men anytime soon.

A related thought. I’m not sure if it’s possible to quantify the quality of human DNA. But do you think that if you measured this quality somehow in 2009, that if you could compare it in say 10000 years, would it be better (more advanced organs, functions, etc) or would it be worse?

 

[The_Barbarian]

I’ve seen several atheists argue that it is a random process.

Not all atheists are scientifically literate.

I was taught in school that random mutations create new entities on which natural selection can filter out the best ones for the current environment.

Do you understand why that’s not a random process?

Some would argue that the natural selection part makes the whole evolution thing not random.

Demonstrably so. Would you like to learn about it?

But I think a more interesting question is the “random mutation” part of the equation. By “random mutations”, I’m talking about an unguided, undirected, unplanned mutation process which cannot see into the future.

Right. And yet, it works, and works very well. God’s a lot smarter than ID/creationsts think.

Before natural selection can pick a “winner” suitable for a new environment, these random mutations must actually occur.

Turns out that they do.

Especially if you have complex life to begin with, mutations are much more likely to break something that works than provide a small portion of an improvement in which thousands of such increments are necessary for the improvement to come into existence.

Yep. Most do nothing much, a few are harmful, and a very few are useful. That’s where natural selection comes in. As a population becomes increasingly fit, fewer and fewer are useful. This is the “stabilizing selection” in evolutionary theory that produces stasis in well-adapted organisms in a stable environment. That’s not random, either, is it?

And given the long gestation cycles of advanced life, and relatively small populations, it seems obvious to me that…to use a humorous example…we aren’t going to see any X-Men anytime soon.

Yep. No X-men. IDers are often surprised to learn that kind of thing is not what evolution is about.

A related thought. I’m not sure if it’s possible to quantify the quality of human DNA. But do you think that if you measured this quality somehow in 2009, that if you could compare it in say 10000 years, would it be better (more advanced organs, functions, etc) or would it be worse?

It’s impossible, because there is no “quality” apart from fitness, and that only applies in terms of the environment. So there is a rough measure of “fitness” which would be the reciprocal of evolutionary change over time in a stable environment.

But no absolute measure of quality. Does that help?

 

[JDaniel]

That’s exactly how it reads to me–as a very old book pieced together from the writings of a large number of people over time. I see nothing that strikes me as supernatural in origin. There is nothing that could not have been written by human beings living in the time they were living in.

Leela:

These reporters lived, then died, years before the next reporter. These reporters lived and died in different parts of the world from one another. Now, if they had computers with email, or, telephones, or, cable, or telegraph, a few could possibly have been in contact with others. However, they didn’t have any such forms of contact so they couldn’t have been in contact with each other, or shared their writings.

But, their accounts jived. Their prophecies about the coming of Christ, the location of His way-off-in-the-distant-future birth, the surroundings in which He would be born, the things He would do, can’t be explained by, “There is nothing that could not have been written by human beings living in the time they were living in.” That’s the problem. It would have taken God to piece together such a grand scheme of secret conniving. Or, if you want to consider it as coincidence-of-the-times. It was way too big.

So, it would have been impossible for these reporters to have known one another, or seen any other reporter’s writings. Yet, the accounts of the birth, life and death of Jesus were substantially the same. Unless you can show that there has ever been a conspiracy of this magnitude ever before on the face of the earth, your conclusion is absurd. Then to add spice to the mixture thrown in some Dead Sea Scrolls. It would have been impossible, IOW.

jd

 

[JDaniel]

Barbarian suggests:
Let’s test that idea. Show me a science textbook that denies God, or a public school that has denial of God in the curriculum. It appears that there have been far more agenda-driven theistic teachers who have imposed their ideas on students than atheistic ones. There are far more theistic teachers, after all.

Older than I like to think.

Barbarian observes:
Selective perception, it seems. Show me a school that actively tried to turn children into atheists. I’ll show you some examples of those who tried to make them conform to the administration’s religious beliefs.

Quite serious.

**Mr. and Mrs. Willis have taken their concerns and complaints to all levels of school personnel and the school board during the last few years. Their efforts have been in vain. In response to a complaint from Mrs. Willis in April of this year, Superintendent John Key suggested that the continual harassment would end if the Willis family would convert to Christianity.

One teacher, in response to Mrs. Willis’ plea, explained “If parents will not save souls, we have to.”

The following are examples of the religious persecution suffered by the Willis children and the entanglement of the Pike County school system with religion. Included in the lawsuit are:

–The Willis children were forbidden to wear Star of David lapel pins. The teacher claimed the Star of David was a gang symbol. Other children in class were wearing crosses.

–The Willis children were forbidden to participate in physical education class while wearing their yarmulkes.

–Two of the Willis children have been physically assaulted by their classmates because of their religion. On one occasion one of the children was beaten by five or six other students.

–Swastikas have been drawn on their lockers, bookbags and jackets. Their yarmulkes, worn on High Holy Days, have been ripped off their heads and used to play “keep away.” **
holysmoke.org/sdhok/jewish.htm

In America, at least, theists have been far more guilty of this kind of thing than atheists. And I am embarrassed to admit it. I can only point out that I’m unaware of any Catholics doing persecution on this scale in American public schools.

Well, Barbmeister, nowhere did I intimate that this didn’t go both ways. I absolutely agree and co-condemn the actions of such schools and their students. I’m sure that some of these types of things were, indeed, incited by teachers; teachers on both sides of the non-theist-theist “war”, and they should be tarred and feathered for it - or, at least required to cease and desist.

And you are right when you say that there doesn’t seem to be many, if any, Catholics participating in this sort of religious persecution. I’ve been on the planet quite a few years now and have not seen a single incident involving Catholics persecuting anyone else. Although, there are some in some of the forums herein that I’d like to get my hands on!

jd

 

[Leela]

Leela:

These reporters lived, then died, years before the next reporter. These reporters lived and died in different parts of the world from one another. Now, if they had computers with email, or, telephones, or, cable, or telegraph, a few could possibly have been in contact with others. However, they didn’t have any such forms of contact so they couldn’t have been in contact with each other, or shared their writings.

But, their accounts jived. Their prophecies about the coming of Christ, the location of His way-off-in-the-distant-future birth, the surroundings in which He would be born, the things He would do, can’t be explained by, “There is nothing that could not have been written by human beings living in the time they were living in.” That’s the problem. It would have taken God to piece together such a grand scheme of secret conniving. Or, if you want to consider it as coincidence-of-the-times. It was way too big.

So, it would have been impossible for these reporters to have known one another, or seen any other reporter’s writings. Yet, the accounts of the birth, life and death of Jesus were substantially the same. Unless you can show that there has ever been a conspiracy of this magnitude ever before on the face of the earth, your conclusion is absurd. Then to add spice to the mixture thrown in some Dead Sea Scrolls. It would have been impossible, IOW.

The people who wrote about Jesus knew about the prophecies of the old testament. It seems pretty obvious to me that someone who wanted to write the story of Jesus or anyone else in such a way as to make it consistent with such prophesies could have easily done. The gospel writers didn’t do as well with the new prophecies that they made, especially the prophecy that Jesus will return during their generation.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Well, Barbmeister, nowhere did I intimate that this didn’t go both ways. I absolutely agree and co-condemn the actions of such schools and their students. I’m sure that some of these types of things were, indeed, incited by teachers; teachers on both sides of the non-theist-theist “war”, and they should be tarred and feathered for it - or, at least required to cease and desist.

Tell me about atheists doing this kind of thing in American public schools. It sounds as crazy as arguing that whites were persecuted for being white in the Jim Crow days in Alabama.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is going off topic. Please take side issues to new or existing threads. Thank you all.