I'd like to ask one more time (political opposition to gay marriage rights)

[Rin]

Your Catholic faith is an ideologue, is it not? Do you mean not to let other ideologies take precedence over your Catholic one?

No. Catholic faith is the antithesis of ideology.

Ideology is when one takes a hypothesis which may be true for one specific part of existence (like, let’s say, the economic theories of Marx, which in part describe several dynamics well), and apply it to the entirety of existence. It is, to borrow loosely from Kant (who I dislike, but oh well), trying to make a particular science into the transcendent science. It invariably has detrimental results.

Only philosophy can be applied to all domains of knowledge, since it studies the sciences; of course, this is to be understood in the sense that philosophy studies scientific methodology, not that philosophers are competent in every particular science…

Catholic faith, however, does not presume to speak infallibly on all areas of discourse; the Church is only infallible on matters of faith and morals. The Church wisely accepts (or rather remains neutral to) discoveries in other sciences. She does not presume to possess the truth beyond the domain of faith and morals.

Of course, Catholicism can be ideologized, by extending the domain of infallibility to things beyond faith and morals. Such ideologization is however heterodox. Ideology is always evil, and it is always the result of a category mistake.

So I truly mean I refuse to submit to ideology of any kind. I submit to the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Church, and to reason, both to the best of my ability. Neither are ideologies.

As for politics, while I prefer not to vote due to the heavy ideologization of all parties (I’m not American, so there are more than two real parties here ), when I do vote, I often find myself ending up in the center; simply because there are good arguments on all sides, and bad arguments on all sides. Because of that, I end up going to neither side.

Edit: Another, slightly different, but related trait of ideologies is that they often represent one trait of the Church which is true and good, but elevate it above the others. The Church conserves, liberates, and feeds the poor. They are all essential parts of Catholicism. Ideologies randomly single out these traits, which, again, is antithetical to the word Catholic, since they are fractions, and not “of the whole”. In a sense, ideology is simply secterianism in modern form.

 

[slalom5]

Hear hear YoungTradCath!!!

It’s appears that some have forgotten that our King and Master’s way** always** comes first before the secular. forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/shrug.gif

 

[kanrok]

Now that gay marriage rights are established in the majority of US states, with no hope of reversal, I’d like to ask this question one more time…

Where in Catholic teaching is found the MANDATE that Catholics must oppose gay marriage rights not just personally, but also POLITICALLY?

1. Is it anywhere in the Bible? (It is not)
2. Is it “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons” written by Benedict in 2003 before he became pope?
3. If #2 is yes, is that document really part of the Magisterium? Is it actually and expressly required for Catholics to follow this document? (We know that Ratzinger was and still is a polarizing figure in the Vatican.)
4. If #3 is yes, can’t it be simply repealed, or deemphasized, by Francis?

The salient question is: given the doctrine of the faith, how can a Catholic support gay marriage? Once you understand that concept, the rest falls directly into line behind it. To be more precise, If I believe that participating in mortal sin places a person at risk for eternal damnation (and I do), it follows that if I assist another is this participation, I am essentially telling them that I do not love them enough to care about their eternal soul. This I cannot do. So, I cannot, in good conscience, vote for a candidate who supports gay marriage. Now, this becomes a tad bit more complicated if all of the candidates support gay marriage. But that may be a topic for another discussion.

 

[edwest2]

Marriage is a bedrock institution that should not be redefined, and our voices and actions must be used to spread the fact of marriage as it really is.

americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/

Peace,
Ed

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I am a moderate, “middle-of-the-road type”, and I can tell you that I have very real principles; principal among them being not to let myself be blinded by political ideologies, not to let them obscure the real world, not to let them corrupt orthodoxy (in the case of conservatism), freedom (in the case of liberalism) or charity (in the case of socialism).

So I will not let myself be straightened out by any self-proclaimed ideologues, be they conservative, liberal or socialist, thank you very much . Such is, apart from Catholic faith, my strongest principle.

Bully for you Rin. Nice speech.

After reviewing some of your previous posts, I would say you are leaning more to the left of middle-of-the-road. And that is fine with me. I respect that. At least you are taking a direction down-the-road…rather than standing in the middle with no place to go.

 

[Rin]

Bully for you Rin. Nice speech.

After reviewing some of your previous posts, I would say you are leaning more to the left of middle-of-the-road. And that is fine with me. I respect that. At least you are taking a direction down-the-road…rather than standing in the middle with no place to go.

Ironically, most lefties would say I’m leaning to the right . I’ve actually had more people accuse me of being right-leaning than left-leaning. Perception changes with position (and, probably, cultural baggage), it seems.

There is no left wing in the United States, there’s not even anything remotely close to center. At least not among the big parties. So from an American perspective, then yes, I would be proud to be seen as left wing. Some Americans would probably (and may I add, ignorantly) even call me a communist - while, again, real communists would accuse me of being a dirty capitalist…

But on a global level, I find myself right in the middle - probably slightly to either side, depending on which questions you ask. It is also the only position I find to be reasonable, since it acknowledges that there are good arguments (and terribly bad ones) on all sides. “Wing politicians” sadly have a tendency of ideological blindness, which is why I prefer to not vote; there are precious few real center parties, and sadly they rarely gain much traction, since people are by nature easily attracted to ideology.

 

[edwest2]

The salient question is: given the doctrine of the faith, how can a Catholic support gay marriage? Once you understand that concept, the rest falls directly into line behind it. To be more precise, If I believe that participating in mortal sin places a person at risk for eternal damnation (and I do), it follows that if I assist another is this participation, I am essentially telling them that I do not love them enough to care about their eternal soul. This I cannot do. So, I cannot, in good conscience, vote for a candidate who supports gay marriage. Now, this becomes a tad bit more complicated if all of the candidates support gay marriage. But that may be a topic for another discussion.

Well said.

Ed

 

[andrewstx]

I don’t hate anyone, Andrew. :grouphug:

I said that I “deride” (your word) liberals. I am not exactly fond of MODERATE Republicans. I prefer hard core Conservatives from any party, race, religion, or sexual preference.

I don’t hate anyone, Koz. :hug1:

Moderate Republicans or “moderate” anythings seem to be middle-of-the-road types. They have no real principals. Therefore I am not fond of them. They need help and direction. It is my Christian duty to straighten them out and show them the way.

I can’t afford to be a hard core conservative. I am disabled from a stroke I had eleven years ago, not to mention a few other ailments I have. Frankly if it were not for the financial support I get from the ‘awful’ US government I would starve to death, or perish from lack of health care I cannot afford on my own. All of which the ultra-conservatives come across as opposing. I am aware of Catholic Charities, but they can’t afford the meds I need. Just one of them runs $350.00a month and I need several a month. Your “direction” would likely lead to my death. Advice from me. Don’t have a stroke, and don’t smoke cigarettes, it was tobacco that lead to my stroke. At the time I had the bugger I had a dip of Copenhagen AND a nf Camel in my mouth, then … I woke up in ICU.

One ultra-conservative motive I very much disagree with is: 'SINK OR SWIM, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN". I cannot think of anything less Catholic or Christian.