I'd like to ask some questions

[javelin]

You are welcome.

Please come back in about 4 hours to see the quote I am going to get. It is VERY illuminating!!

It is a quote from the second century where the writer describes what people do on the Lord’s day. It basically describes the order of the Mass, exactly how we still practice it today.

Contrary to some popular belief, the quote shows that the Catholic Church did not just “make up” the Mass over hundreds of years, but that the important parts of it go back all the way to the earliest Christians we have records of.

Peace,
javelin

 

[Mickey]

UCA_chick:

Thankyou very, very much, javelin. You’ve answered those extremely well and helped a lot. So much so, that I think I can wrap up my research for today. You’ve all been extremely helpful and accomadating, and I’ll make sure that when I come back (as it wouldn’t surprise me if I do sometime in the future), I post in the right forums, seperate threads and the like. Thankyou all once again, especially for putting up with me, my general-ness, my fickle mind, and my stupidity so very early in the morning (which it is where I am…). Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.

May Peace be in your hearts.

Your humbleness is refreshing.

God bless you,
Mickey

 

[Church_Militant]

1. With the Eucharistic bread and wine, there are set practices and rituals concerning their making and blessing, yes? Could you explain this to me briefly?

Essentially the Catholic Eucharist follows the liturgy of the last supper because we understand that when He said “Do this in memory of me.” that he was referring to just that. The liturgy of the consecration and when an ordained Catholic priest obeys that command that we then share in the miracle of the Eucharist.

The early church believed the very same thing since St. Ignatius of Antioch calls them heretics who did not in his letter to the Smyrneans chapters 7 & 8. (Link to that )

1. Are the above practices considered absolutely necessary for the bread and wine to change into the Body and Blood of Christ?

Absolutely! (Again see Ignatius of Antioch’s letter)

1. Do you believe the Eucharist of the UCA to be valid? (They may use ordinary leavened bread and grape juice from the local supermarket…as long as a minister or higher blesses it.) Why/why not?

Sorry, no. There is no apostolic succession that links UCA ministers to the apostles. Furthermore the UCA does not express faith in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (See # 8 in your their statement of faith concerning communion). Also, a valid Eucharist must be unleavened bread & wine…that is part of the liturgy. (Look into the Passover that the apostles shared with Christ at the last supper. Was that leavened bread and grape juice?)

1. Can you explain to me why non-Catholics are not allowed to take part in the Eucharist of the Catholic Church? Surely if a person believes it to truly be the Body and Blood of Christ it is valid?

Yes I can. The church for all of it’s 2,000 year history has maintained closed communion. Paul taught that to unworthily receive it could be fatal in 1st Corinthians 11:23-30, not to mention a further very grave sin. To share communion with a church openly professes that you believe the same things that they do and that is impossible for Catholics, since non-Catholic churches do not believe that the Eucharist is the body and blood, soul and divinity of the risen Lord Jesus Christ, but that it is merely a memorial or symbol. Such is not the case either Biblically or historically.

Please read Ecclesia de Eucharistia paragraphs 42-45 which will cover this in greater and very concise detail.

1. To what degree of freedom do you believe Catholic priests have to “personalise” the Mass? Why?

The General Instruction on the Roman Missal covers all this. GIRM

1. How does this compare to the freedom of Protestant ministers, especially those of the UCA?

That would not be our problem…

1. Can you tell me why the Catholic Church does not allow women to become priests?

There is nothing in the Bible or history of the church that would suggest that there have ever been priestesses in the Judeo-Christian tradition. In fact the New Testament speaks against it.

1. What do you think about other denominations allowing this practice?

Pretty much…their practice, their problem.
Pax tecum,

 

[mercygate]

UCA_chick:

Thankyou, mercygate, exactly what I needed!

You are welcome!

One qualifier about eucharistic bread. In the Eastern Churches which are in communion with Rome, leavened bread is licitly used for the Eucharist.

 

[kmktexas]

Quote:
Originally Posted by UCA_chick
12. Do you believe that how well-suited the service of a denomination is to a person (ie their personal feelings and beliefs) can determine which church they will attend for the Sunday Liturgy?

Of course. People will definitely attend whatever service they feel best fits their personal feelings and beliefs. That does not, however, make the service equal to all others, especially since we know that not all beliefs that people hold are True. I strongly believe that, like it or not, the Mass is the ultimate means God gave us to honor and worship Him. Every other service is wanting in comparison.

Very good answers above. Just one thing I would add. A person’s feelings about Mass are not really of consequense. It is a Protestant concept that the congregation should “get something out of” their services. The Mass is something we offer to God and it is what we bring to it that is important, not what we get out of it. That being said, there are some communities and rites that will resound more with some Catholics than others. Within the Church there are several differnt rites and the differences reflect the cultures of the parts of the world where the rite grew. Additionally, there is the Anglican use Mass and the Traditional Latin Mass which are both different from the “standard” Mass and said with permission in different communities. Catholics are free to celebrate Mass (or Divine Liturgy) at any of these and the choice is often based on personal feelings.

 

[javelin]

kmktexas:

Very good answers above. Just one thing I would add. A person’s feelings about Mass are not really of consequense. It is a Protestant concept that the congregation should “get something out of” their services. The Mass is something we offer to God and it is what we bring to it that is important, not what we get out of it. That being said, there are some communities and rites that will resound more with some Catholics than others. Within the Church there are several differnt rites and the differences reflect the cultures of the parts of the world where the rite grew. Additionally, there is the Anglican use Mass and the Traditional Latin Mass which are both different from the “standard” Mass and said with permission in different communities. Catholics are free to celebrate Mass (or Divine Liturgy) at any of these and the choice is often based on personal feelings.

Yes, very good point to make clear. Thank you.

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

UCA_chick,

This quote is from A.D. 155, and is attributed to St. Justin Martyr from his work Apology I, 65-67. If you have been to Catholic Mass many times, you should definitely recognize what he describes:

Justin:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place. The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits. When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things. Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves … and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation. When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss. Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren. He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts. When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: “Amen.” When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.

I found the quote in Scott Hahn’s book, The Lamb’s Supper, pp. 34-35.

I hope this is enlightening for you – it was to me.

Peace,
javelin

 

[buffalo]

Sacrifice of the Mass

 

[mercygate]

1. Do you believe that the mass of the Catholic Church to be more formal the the UCA or Protestant churches in general? Why do you think this is?

Perhaps the answer is “in general” the Mass is more formal than much Protestant worship, but there are many Protestant liturgies that are highly liturgical and “formal.” Lutherans, for example and high church Anglicans have highly precise liturgical forms.

For that matter, the liturgy in a Catholic Church also has ‘formal’ and ‘informal’ expressions. If you saw the Masses surrounding the death of Pope John Paul VI and the institution of Pope Benedict XVI, you saw a lot of ritual and ceremony that would not be present on a simple Mass on a week day at 7:00 a.m. The “skeleton” or essential parts of the Mass are the same, but there is room for considerable elaboration according to the solemnity of the occasion.

1. How do you think the history of the Catholic Church factors in to how the Mass is conducted?

Others have answered this pretty well. Our history is very important but more important is the origin of the Mass, upon which history has written.

1. Do you think that the age of the Church has an impact on howformal and rigid the Mass is, comparede to a younger denomination, such as the UCA? How so?

Not necessarily. Many “new” denominations, such as the Anglican groups which have split off from the main body of Anglican churches have extremely formal liturgy. The word “rigid” doesn’t exactly apply, although there are unchangeable, essential parts of the liturgy. What we call fidelity, others might think of as rigidity.

Good luck with your assignment.