Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

[Calgar]

I don’t have to; I reject sola scriptura. You should too.

What else is there if not the Bible alone? Tradition? I don’t know of any Christians that don’t have tradition. It’s just not your tradition.

 

[Calgar]

Why? Why would baptists do something symbolically in the name of Holiness? Isn’t that a bit like symbolic prayer (standing on the street corner to pray so that men see you)? And since it is symbolic, why bother with it all?

We are called to publicly profess our faith, stewstew. Too many Christians these days hide their light under a basket.

 

[Calgar]

Marriage is a sacrament that changes the standing before God of the people who celebrate it. And you agree (unless you think fornication is not a sin). Now you tell us why baptism doesn’t do likewise.

The Bible speaks very specifically about marriage in several places. The same is true about baptism. They don’t compare the way you are doing it.

 

[Cat_Herder]

What else is there if not the Bible alone? Tradition? I don’t know of any Christians that don’t have tradition. It’s just not your tradition.

The only Tradition that is Sacred and Apostolic is that of the Catholic Church. All other church traditions were created by men in the 1500s or later.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The Bible speaks very specifically about marriage in several places. The same is true about baptism. They don’t compare the way you are doing it.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 3:21[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:1-4[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 36:25[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Calgar]

I understand your point but your confusing the issue. NAMB starts with the premise that Catholics lack salvation because baptists believe Catholics lack a personal relationship with Christ.

Yes, there are some that believe this. I have worked for NAMB in the past, and do so every now and again, and I have never even spoken to a roman catholic who didn’t engage me first. If you’re strong in your faith there really isn’t anything to worrry about. My local church teaches extensively on other religions and how to evangelise to them. Specifically mormons and JW.

Now that being said, I spend my time in eastern Europe and there’s a lot of orthodox there. So my exposure to rc is not that great.

 

[Calgar]

The only Tradition that is Sacred and Apostolic is that of the Catholic Church. All other church traditions were created by men in the 1500s or later.

My study of history brings me to a different conclusion.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What else is there if not the Bible alone? Tradition? I don’t know of any Christians that don’t have tradition. It’s just not your tradition.

There’s only one Tradition and it went like this.

There were 25 Gospels in circulation by the fourth century. It took the Catholic Church’s Tradition to separate the authentic Gospels from those that were not. In fact the Church had already decided by the second century that only four of the 25 Gospels were authentic - canonical and inspired. Unless there had been the Church’s authority, under the Pope, to decide that these were the four Gospels, YOU wouldn’t even have the New Testament to quote from, and any idea of tradition.

 

[Calgar]

There’s only one Tradition and it went like this.

There were 25 Gospels in circulation by the fourth century. It took the Catholic Church’s Tradition to separate the authentic Gospels from those that were not. In fact the Church had already decided by the second century that only four of the 25 Gospels were authentic - canonical and inspired. Unless there had been the Church’s authority, under the Pope, to decide that these were the four Gospels, YOU wouldn’t even have the New Testament to quote from, and any idea of tradition.

That’s odd. What about the greek orthodox church? They seem to have just as much of a claim as you’re making here.

 

[Calgar]

[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 3:21[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:1-4[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 36:25[/BIBLEDRB]

I am seeing your point. I’ll have to study.

 

[JonNC]

The act of being baptised does not remove sin. It is symbolic of the inward change, as you put it.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in whichc he went and proclaimedd to the spirits in prison, 20becausee they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Jon

 

[stewstew03]

We are called to publicly profess our faith, stewstew. Too many Christians these days hide their light under a basket.

But one doesn’t need to be baptized to profess one’s faith publicly. Moreover, if you believe the act of baptism is merely symbolic, then I’m assuming you’re not one of those baptists who insist upon “immersion” as the only acceptable method.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“The act of being baptised does not remove sin. It is symbolic of the inward change, as you put it.”

This couldn’t be further from the truth. Nor is in line with Scripture, or Oral Sacred Tradition.

In fact its a complete misunderstanding, but hey when your subjected to your local pastor in search of the objective truth, not hard to see how one could, and does conclude this.

Peace

 

[Calgar]

But one doesn’t need to be baptized to profess one’s faith publicly. Moreover, if you believe the act of baptism is merely symbolic, then I’m assuming you’re not one of those baptists who insist upon “immersion” as the only acceptable method.

You are correct.

 

[stewstew03]

You are correct.

So if baptism is only a symbol, and is akin to someone standing on a street corner professing their faith, is it considered a “Holy” act?

[This is an honest question].

 

[Calgar]

So if baptism is only a symbol, and is akin to someone standing on a street corner professing their faith, is it considered a “Holy” act?

[This is an honest question].

I’m not sure what you mean by Holy act. But we are told to publicly profess our faith in Christ. Baptism is a great way to do that before the entire church (and the non-believers there).

And preaching on a street corner is comendable. I’m a bit more reserved than that, but I respect those men who do so.

 

[onemangang]

Calgar

since you see baptism as an outward expression of an inward change, then why baptize other than doing what Jesus said?

Do you posit that baptism is a welcoming into the kingdom of God or the VisIble Church?

Why would our Lord tell us to do something that hasn’t any salvific value?

From the Gospel of Matthew, here’s list of all the things that Jesus told us TO DO.

Worship the Lord and serve him only. Mt 4:10
Repent. Mt 4:17
Follow me. Mt 4:19
Shine your light before me and do good deeds. Mt 5:16
Your righteousness must surpass the Pharisees Mt 5:20
Settle matters quickly. Mt 5:25
Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow from you. Mt 5:42.
Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Mt 5:44
Give to the needy. Mt 6:2
Pray. Mt 6:5
Forgive people who sin against you. Mt. 6:14 & 18:35
Fast from food once in awhile. Mt 6:16
Treat people the way you’d like to be treated. Mt 7:12
Enter through the narrow gate. Mt 7:13
Do God’s will. Mt 7:21
Acknowledge Jesus before men. Mt 10:32
Honor your father and mother. Mt 15:4 & 19:19
Be humble. Mt 18:4
Confront the person you have a conflict with. Mt 18:15
Love your neighbor as yourself. Mt 19:19 & 22:39
Serve everyone. Mt 20:26-28 & 23:11
Love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Mt 22:37
Feed, clothes, visit and invite in the poor and needy. Mt 25:35
Make disciples and baptize them. Mt 28:19

Many other things as well from the other gospel narratives like, Eat His Flesh, and Drink His Blood! There is a** host** of things Jesus told us to do, other than have faith alone, no pun intened!

 

[Calgar]

There is a** host** of things Jesus told us to do, other than have faith alone, no pun intened!

Does doing any of those things matter if you don’t have faith in Christ? Even a heathen can follow many if not most of those rules.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Does doing any of those things matter if you don’t have faith in Christ? Even a heathen can follow many if not most of those rules.

A person who does all of those things because he believes they are ordained by God knows Christ better than a say-so Christian does. What did Jesus say about those folks who call Him Lord but don’t do His will?

 

[jlhargus]

The baptism is the profession of faith.

jl; mark