Ideas for what we could do if our fight against the mandate doesn't work

[interestedman]

Au contraire. May I suggest you apply some Critical Reasoning in regard to the ramifications of your philosophical stance? I believe one can learn Critical Reasoning while on horseback…or not… It is up to* you,* actually…

The government forces you to pay for things that go against your conscience all the time. How many people didn’t support the war in Iraq? Who do you think paid for it…other than China of course. Many people believe that access to birth control is a right. And how much money is really coming out of your pocket because of it? Seriously?

Do you even work for a Catholic company that is effected by this? It isn’t fair for employers to be able to say “well we don’t agree with the morality of this type of medication so we won’t cover it.” Employees should be able to make their own decisions, employers shouldn’t be able to make the decisions for them. If they think birth control is wrong, so be it. If they don’t they should have it covered. It is as simple as that. Stop complaining about fitting the bill. What about people that use viagra? Should they make a clause that anyone that uses viagra has to be married? Where does it stop?

 

[interestedman]

I see… So it is your assertion that Obama is against those that are with… ‘Backward’ was it (?) Religion-yes? Curioser and curioser…considering Obama** refers to himself as a Christian. Heh heh heh… I guess the **real **evidence is presenting itself…as delineated by your statement.

Hmmmmmmmmmm… Must be some truth in the matter when the Republicans say the** Democrats** have essentially declared Political War on the ‘People of Religion…’

The problem is that most people that identify themselves as religious have no problem with birth control. Most of them use it themselves. And even many people that do have a problem with birth control don’t believe that an employer should be able to drop it from their coverage just because THEY don’t agree with it. Obama hasn’t declared a war on religion, he has declared a war on fundamentalism and people that want to take away other people’s rights due to their own religious beliefs. You are calling it a war on religion when it really is not being able to force your religious beliefs on others that don’t agree with them. It would be like Muslims demanding Sharia law be enacted and when people don’t want that Muslims claiming that there is a war on Islam.

 

[interestedman]

Oh yes? Then why are the Democrats forcing their appearant particular brand of Religion of Atheism on the people?

Name one prominent Democrat that is an atheist. Actually, name one democrat politician that is an atheist. I can’t think of any.

 

[Nimzovik]

Name one prominent Democrat that is an atheist. Actually, name one democrat politician that is an atheist. I can’t think of any.

IMHO I certainly can **not **call Sebellius a Catholic… Ceratinly not when she scandalously violates the very fundamental tenets of her ‘proclaimed Faith’.

So. I ask you - What is a wolf in sheep’s clothing? An Atheist? With appearant malicious intent towards the faith?

Seriously. Need I go on here?

 

[Nimzovik]

Bold Lettering Mine.

The government forces you to pay for things that go against your conscience all the time.

Indeed? Then it is up to those people to follow their conscience and advocate for themselves politically, now isn’t it? There is a word for this. It is called America!

How many people didn’t support the war in Iraq? Who do you think paid for it…other than China of course.

Many people believe that access to birth control is a right. And how much money is really coming out of your pocket because of it? Seriously?

Many people thought that slavery was a right for certain people too! Look how wrong they were!

Any money coming out of my pocket is too much money to contribute toward the killing of children. Can you here me now? Just how many times are you going to make me say this? Surely the Catholic Perspective has been stated and restated in abundance.

Do you even work for a Catholic company that is effected by this?

Yes. My ‘Company’ is my church. I do charity functions repeatedly.

It isn’t fair for employers to be able to say “well we don’t agree with the morality of this type of medication so we won’t cover it.”

Oh, but it is quite fair, I say yet once again. It is called being American. What is not American is making other people pay for the things you want! Hello? Enjoy capitaalism. Socialism is not what made this country great.

Employees should be able to make their own decisions, employers shouldn’t be able to make the decisions for them.

Yes! I think you are getting it! Employees should make decisions like choosing to work some where else. Simply really.
This ‘cookie cutter’ mentality that everyone should be like everyone else of the Democrats is contray to fostering an environment for people to be free to excel. Not all policies work for everyone all the time. We (and companies) are individuals. Apple Computer is a far different company than the Govt’ is. Just look how well it is doing. Now. Just How much debt. has Obama sunk us into with his Socialism?

If they think birth control is wrong, so be it. If they don’t they should have it covered. It is as simple as that.

Yes… That is the secular mentality isn’t it?

Stop complaining about fitting the bill.

Excuuuuuuuuse me? Why!? Pay your own bills! And I will pay* mine.*

What about people that use viagra? Should they make a clause that anyone that uses viagra has to be married? Where does it stop?

Uh hello? Catholic here. You see, we believe in conjugal relations within the mariage vows. We should not have to subsidize your Atheism. Quit inflicting your Secular Religion on the rest of us - please.

So I am curious. Do you advocate for Polygamy and Polyandry as well?
Uhhhhh… Where does it stop for you? Eh wot?

 

[Nimzovik]

The problem is that most people that identify themselves as religious have no problem with birth control. Most of them use it themselves. And even many people that do have a problem with birth control don’t believe that an employer should be able to drop it from their coverage just because THEY don’t agree with it.

Obama hasn’t declared a war on religion, he has declared a war on fundamentalism and people that want to take away other people’s rights due to their own religious beliefs.

Bolding Mine:

Yes… That is the Democrat Party line, isn’t it. However I see the actuality as being far different. Indeed, as the many, law suits are being filed against the HHS mandate indicate, I guess I am not alone in this matter, now am I?

You are calling it a war on religion when it really is not being able to force your religious beliefs on others that don’t agree with them. It would be like Muslims demanding Sharia law be enacted and when people don’t want that Muslims claiming that there is a war on Islam.

 

[DeSanto]

This is a failure in logic. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Blood transfusions are necessary for saving lives, as are surgery and chemotherapy. If contraceptive medications were necessary for saving lives them the church would likely acquiesce and provide for them. However, the purpose of contraceptive and abortive medications / procedures it quite the opposite. These things are geared towards the TAKING of life, and are therefore intrinsically evil.

We are not calling for someone to be denied something they need to live, as in the cases you put forth. You are incapable of proving a point this way because there is no point to be proven. We are trying to save lives, the government is trying to take them.

I just began to read through this thread and just wanted to make a quick comment. Birth control is also used for other medical reasons besides preventing pregnancy. They can help women with irregular menstral cycles, they can help reduce the pain associated with menstral cycles, they can help with skin conditions and regulate hormone imbalances. In some cases, like with my daughter, who btw is not sexual active, it can be life saving.

 

[Corki]

I just began to read through this thread and just wanted to make a quick comment. Birth control is also used for other medical reasons besides preventing pregnancy. They can help women with irregular menstral cycles, they can help reduce the pain associated with menstral cycles, they can help with skin conditions and regulate hormone imbalances. In some cases, like with my daughter, who btw is not sexual active, it can be life saving.

That is true but it really has nothing to do with the mandate. Even back in the day when most health insurance plans excluded birth control, you could still get coverage for the very same if they were prescribed to treat an actual condition and not just to prevent pregnancy. I would expect that the plans that Catholic institutions have now that don’t cover contraceptives, cover these types of prescriptions. The mandate is about drugs, devices and procedures prescribed for the purpose of contraception.

 

[DeSanto]

That is true but it really has nothing to do with the mandate. Even back in the day when most health insurance plans excluded birth control, you could still get coverage for the very same if they were prescribed to treat an actual condition and not just to prevent pregnancy. I would expect that the plans that Catholic institutions have now that don’t cover contraceptives, cover these types of prescriptions. The mandate is about drugs, devices and procedures prescribed for the purpose of contraception.

I completely agree. Just don’t want the misconception that birth control is only used for pregnancy prevention. Some on birth control should not be automatically judged as a sinner.

 

[interestedman]

I completely agree. Just don’t want the misconception that birth control is only used for pregnancy prevention. Some on birth control should not be automatically judged as a sinner.

No one on birth control should be automatically judged as a sinner. And isn’t it true that everyone but Jesus and Mary are sinners? You shouldn’t judge anyone.

 

[DeSanto]

No one on birth control should be automatically judged as a sinner. And isn’t it true that everyone but Jesus and Mary are sinners? You shouldn’t judge anyone.

It is true WE shouldn’t judge.

 

[DeSanto]

No one on birth control should be automatically judged as a sinner. And isn’t it true that everyone but Jesus and Mary are sinners? You shouldn’t judge anyone.

Let me rephrase…We should not automatically assume the intentions of one who uses birth control. Not all cases of use is to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Remember, I was responding to a poster who was saying that all birth control was geared towards taking lives and I was merely pointing out to that person the fact that there are other important uses to consider.

 

[MarkInOregon]

So you’re now in favor of allowing religious discrimination in the workplace…

I don’t know where you’re from or how much American or British history you’re familiar with, but historically speaking, that sort of thing hasn’t worked out too well for Catholics, at least in those two countries…

Sheesh!

Please explain how it is descriminatory to not to cover contraception and abortions? The employer is providing health care coverage–the same coverage to any employee. No one is being denied employment or healthcare coverage because of their religion. Look around today–not all employers cover the same things with their health plans–no one screams descrimiation, but let a Catholic employer fail to pass out free birth control and you would think the world is coming to an end. Talk about Sheesh.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Its ALL the employee’s “own money” as soon as he earns it as a wage!!

Because he’s not the one paying for them (even though he might be writing the check) the employee is earning them!

Only if the insurance premium is withheld from his wage is he the one paying them. When the employee takes a position–they agree to a certain wage and to certain benefits for their labor and that is what they are entitled to. If those benefits do not include birth control, for example, they know that up front–and they do not earn and are not entitled to birth control as compensation.

Should a Muslim employer specify that I eat only Halal food?

No and this is not what Catholic employers are doing when they don’t provide birth control. They are not specifying that you can’t use birth control. Do you not see the distinction? I think the Muslim employer would be within their rights not to provide non Halal food in, say, an employer cafeteria.

What if he requires me to purchase all of my food from his store, which only stocks Halal foods?

That’s not what is happening with Catholic employers who don’t provide birth control!
Though there was a time in this country when shopping at the company store was often forced, but that is another discussion.

What if instead of giving me cash he specifies that I will receive Halal groceries directly from him in lieu of the wages I would have spent on food?

Do his religious liberties extend to not “paying” for my pork chops and shrimp?

These really are not relevant examples to the healthcare debate, but he has a right to offer what he wants to pay–as long as it complies with the wage laws–and you have the right to accept that pay or not to accept it in return for your labor. What he can’t do is force you to work for him or tell you what to do with your compensation once you have received it. You could take you Halal groceries and trade them for your pork.

Peace,
Mark

 

[livingwordunity]

Gee!!! What fun! Catholics get to pay double for their conscience! Some much for equality for all -eh?

Secularist laws in America are like Islamic Sharia Law in how it makes non-believers pay extra money for not subscribing to the belief.