Ideas on how to promote ad-orientem?

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For those of us who are in parishes where the EF is pretty much an impossible dream, there still exist a possibility for ad-orientem (facing East). What can one do to perhaps promote it? Or talk to a priest about it? Anyone have any stories? Or ideas?
 
For those of us who are in parishes where the EF is pretty much an impossible dream, there still exist a possibility for ad-orientem (facing East). What can one do to perhaps promote it? Or talk to a priest about it? Anyone have any stories? Or ideas?
Changes like this must come from the Bishop. Take Vatican II documents and any others that you have and make your case to the Bishop.
 
Our parochial vicar was excited about the idea but our new pastor is reluctant. Big however; we just got a new Archbishop. Perhaps things will change in the near future.
Never stop praying.
 
ad orientem seems like a thought or a concept.
Yes, and like all Christian thoughts and concepts, it is to be practised in reality! 🙂 All gentle zealotry, kind fanaticism, and goodly fervour will win the day with a sensible bishop. One simply must make the case, especially using Sacrosanctum Concilium and the 2011 Advent Missal. Both stress the facing of the priest toward the people only at certain intervals. Aren’t clerics supposed to “say the black and do the red”? Well, the red says that one must face in two different directions during a Mass!

Attack with all guns forward, in great charity.
Never stop praying.
Here is the key to the gates of God’s eternal kingdom, in any matter. He will hear our prayers if they are made solemnly and through Christ, our Lord. God only respects the prayers of the humble, only the prayers of those who wish things to be done for His glory and worship. The Glorious Order of God is to be propagated only by His majesty: He will not grant even a good intention (such as ad orientem) if it is made with a proud intention, out of a sense of haughty solemnity; instead, He will grant it if our prayers to reinstate ad orientem are done only out of a wish to magnify Him by facing Him properly in Mass.

Even the same thing can have two different faces.
 
For those of us who are in parishes where the EF is pretty much an impossible dream, there still exist a possibility for ad-orientem (facing East). What can one do to perhaps promote it? Or talk to a priest about it? Anyone have any stories? Or ideas?
The more realistic first goal is to promote Benedict XVI’s altar arrangement–six candles and an altar cross dead center. That has the effect of ad-orientem.

Get together a group of like minded parishioners and purchase a beautiful altar crucifix and candle holders. That way, it becomes hard for the pastor to refuse to use them.

After that, maybe the idea of celebrating ad-orientem will become the next logical step. If not, you at least have a more beautiful, God-centered set up on the altar.

I’ve always thought that someone should start a movement to promote the B16 altar arrangement and fundraise to buy parishes the altar crucifix.

Just a thought.
 
Originally Posted by archangel04
For those of us who are in parishes where the EF is pretty much an impossible dream, there still exist a possibility for ad-orientem (facing East). What can one do to perhaps promote it? Or talk to a priest about it? Anyone have any stories? Or ideas?
Well you can take a group of parishioners to your pastor and request it, as suggested elsewhere on this thread, and then your pastor will tell you why he won’t do it, and why he doesn’t have to do it. And if you present him with a petition, he may then go and take a survey of the whole parish, and when he comes back with results that show that you and your petitioners represent a very small minority, then what do you do?

The fact is that, from parish-to-parish, there really isn’t anything that you can do. The clergy do what they want to do, not what you want to do. Many of them don’t even do what the Pope wants them to do. If the clergy can so easily disregard the Pope’s thoughts on the matter, what makes you think they’ll give a flying fig about yours?

Sometimes I get the impression from reading various posts and responses on these fora that people imagine that all of their priests are just completely ignorant of the GIRM and the Ceremonial of Bishops and papal encyclicals and of any other text pertaining to liturgy and rubrics. They seem to think that if they approach their pastor with a copy of the GIRM or of an encyclical of the Pope, it’s going to be a revelation to him: “My goodness, there are rules for this stuff? Shocking! Who knew? Thank you for bringing it to my attention! I’ll go out and buy six candlesticks and a crucifix and make the appropriate changes this afternoon!”

Our priests are not all clueless dummies, however, and the issue is much larger than your parish, or your pastor, or even your bishop. There is a culture and a mentality that completely pervades the Church that is really very dismissive of hardline rules and rubrics, and which dislikes high formality and solemnity. But it seems that a “reform of the reform” may be underway that will eventually give “high church” Catholics more of what they’re looking for. But matters will not change overnight; there’s a long road ahead. Pope Benedict XVI has fired the first volley; he has led the charge by example. Newly ordained and future priests, not the current crop, will be the ones to join in the effort.

In time, I believe the “reform of the reform” will become a reality. But it isn’t going to happen in your church, tomorrow. You can “promote it” all you want, but it isn’t going to change the mind of a priest who just isn’t interested.

Pray for it? Pray for what? That all priests will face the opposite way of the way they’re facing now? Pray that all parishes will use six candles whenever Mass is sung? Odd prayers, those. Yes, I like the idea of “old-school” solemnity, pomp, and circumstance, but one may legitimately prefer a less “high” interpretation of the liturgy. Christ himself celebrated a first Mass that was about as “low” as you can get, after all, didn’t he? So, it really isn’t something to pray for, exactly.

What we are talking about is a movement, really, that favours old-style solemnity versus an ecclesiastical culture that isn’t very familiar with the former style of worship, and which isn’t very concerned about it or interested in it. Now, Catholics in the “high church” camp (and I count myself amongst them) can be consoled by the fact that we at last have the pope on our side, and he’s leading the charge, no less! Great! But the last pope–regarded by most Catholics (including this one) as a saint–wasn’t a “high church” man, at all, then, was he? Rubrics and vestments and ermine and thrones weren’t his thing; not at all. Was he in the wrong? No, he was just of a different, but legitimate liturgical persuasion.

I think the answer to the question, “what can I do to promote ad orientam posture in my parish?” is “nothing”. I think we in the “high church” camp are just going to have to patiently wait for changes that we may be hopeful will occur in time.

You know, it’s interesting to observe that the ad orientam posture of the celebrant is the norm in many Episcopalian churches. In larger churches, daily services are typically celebrated at a side altar, rather than at the main altar, forcing the celebrant to assume ad orientam posture out of necessity. They do not regard that as a “high” or “conservative” thing to do, however. They don’t think anything of it at all, in fact. I have a close friend who is an Episcopal priest who is just baffled when Catholics argue over this issue.

It’s interesting to see how the Episcopalians pay no mind to something that we Catholics have obsessed over since the end of Vatican II. If an Episcopalian pastor encounters an altar against the wall, his solution is to use it the way it was intended to be used, whereas when a Catholic pastor encounters an altar against the wall, his solution is to spend five figures to hire a contractor to redesign the floor to accomodate a free-standing table!
 
Changes like this must come from the Bishop. Take Vatican II documents and any others that you have and make your case to the Bishop.
What change? GIRM even gives direction for the priest to turn to face the people at certain points. Given that and the fact that now were does it say to face the people at all times, only that the alter should be placed as to allow one to walk completely around. How do you take any of that to mean you would need premission to still be face ad-orientem?
 
What change? GIRM even gives direction for the priest to turn to face the people at certain points. Given that and the fact that now were does it say to face the people at all times, only that the alter should be placed as to allow one to walk completely around. How do you take any of that to mean you would need premission to still be face ad-orientem?
GIRM Chapter IX Adaptations Within the Competence of Bishops and Bishops’ Conferences:
  1. The Diocesan Bishop, who is to be regarded as the high priest of his flock, and from whom the life in Christ of the faithful under his care in a certain sense derives and upon whom it depends,148 must promote, regulate, and be vigilant over the liturgical life in his diocese. It is to him that in this Instruction is entrusted the regulating of the discipline of concelebration (cf. above, nos. 202, 374) and the establishing of norms regarding the function of serving the priest at the altar (cf. above, no. 107), the distribution of Holy Communion under both kinds (cf. above, no. 283), and the construction and ordering of churches (cf. above, no. 291). With him lies responsibility above all for fostering the spirit of the Sacred Liturgy in the priests, deacons, and faithful.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH;7144750:
JM3;7142584:
Changes like this must come from the Bishop. Take Vatican II documents and any others that you have and make your case to the Bishop.
What change? GIRM even gives direction for the priest to turn to face the people at certain points. Given that and the fact that now were does it say to face the people at all times, only that the alter should be placed as to allow one to walk completely around. How do you take any of that to mean you would need premission to still be face ad-orientem?GIRM Chapter IX Adaptations Within the Competence of Bishops and Bishops’ Conferences:
That particular item from the GIRM does not really have a bearing on the matter at hand. Despite what many people may think or may have been (mistakenly) taught, ad orientem is neither a “change” nor a novelty in the OF. In fact, according to the rubrics of the OF, it is the presumed posture. oneGODoneCHURCH happens to be correct.
 
That particular item from the GIRM does not really have a bearing on the matter at hand. Despite what many people may think or may have been (mistakenly) taught, ad orientem is neither a “change” nor a novelty in the OF. In fact, according to the rubrics of the OF, it is the presumed posture. oneGODoneCHURCH happens to be correct.
APOSTOLORUM SUCCESSORES

Chapter VI

THE MUNUS SANCTIFICANDI
OF THE DIOCESAN BISHOP

II. THE REGULATION OF THE SACRED LITURGY
  1. The Bishop, Moderator of Diocesan Liturgical Life.
As High Priest responsible for divine worship in the particular Church, the Bishop has the task of ordering, promoting and safeguarding the entire liturgical life of the diocese (426). He should, therefore, be vigilant that the norms established by legitimate authority are attentively observed. In particular, he should make sure that clergy and lay faithful carry out all those tasks and only those tasks which are proper to them, without changing the sacramental rites or liturgical celebrations according to personal taste or preference (427).

**In liturgical matters, it pertains to the Bishop to issue appropriate norms that are binding throughout the diocese **(428), while always respecting what has been established by higher authority.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cbishops/documents/rc_con_cbishops_doc_20040222_apostolorum-successores_en.html#Chapter_VI
 
In liturgical matters, it pertains to the Bishop to issue appropriate norms that are binding throughout the diocese 428), while always respecting what has been established by higher authority.
The Missale Romanum is a “higher authority” than any local Ordinary.
 
About two years ago the St John Cantius fathers introduced the ‘ad altare’ Masses (actually to South). They simply removed the table used previously as altar, and started to say masses at the original altar. A minority group protested, sent a petition to the Cardinal Artchbishop, and the order made a compromise, the Saturday 6PM mass is at a table, facing a l;arge cross between the priest and the faithful. Since that time everyone seems to be happy with the situation, the (otherwise English) masses are really beautiful with full reverence toward the Sacrifice of our Lord.

I do not like the ‘to East’ requirement. In my territorial Church the table altar is at the West end of an otherwise circular Church room, the priest faces East and the people, and the tabernacle too, which is at the East end of the Church. Everyone else faces West and people turn their back toward the tabernacle.
 
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19690403_missale-romanum_en.html

Help a blind man out. I see nothing here about facing the people or not facing the people.
That’s because that’s the decree of promulgation. One has to look at the missal itself. This has already been said (and quoted), but I’ll quote it one last time (emphasis added):
GIRM even gives direction for the priest to** turn to face the people** at certain points. Given that and the fact that now were does it say to face the people at all times, only that the alter should be placed as to allow one to walk completely around. How do you take any of that to mean you would need premission to still be face ad-orientem?
 
GIRM
  1. Upon returning to the middle of the altar, the priest, facing the people and extending and then joining his hands, invites the people to pray, saying, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren). The people rise and make their response: Suscipiat Dominus (May the Lord accept). Then the priest, with hands extended, says the prayer over the offerings. At the end the people make the acclamation, Amen.
It does not say ‘turn’.

The Priest cannot say the prayer over the offerings if they are behind him, as he is still ‘facing the people’.

usccb.org/romanmissal/resources-guides1.shtml

Liturgy of the Eucharist

It is appropriate that a collection be taken up at this time so that the money may be brought to the sanctuary as part of the procession with the gifts (73). The Liturgy of the Eucharist is patterned on the biblical narratives of the Last Supper (72) that describe the Lord as taking bread and the cup, giving thanks, breaking the bread, and giving the bread and cup to his disciples. Thus, during the preparation, bread and wine, the elements Jesus took into his hands, are brought to the altar (72.1). Thanks are given to God in the Eucharistic Prayer (72.2). Then the bread is broken and the consecrated elements are given to the faithful in Communion (72.3).

The preparation begins with the ministers placing the corporal, purificator, chalice (unless it is prepared at the side table), and Roman Missal on the altar (73, 139). (6)

Then the faithful bring the bread and wine forward (along with monetary offerings).

These are received by the priest celebrant or deacon at an appropriate place (73, 140, 178).

The priest celebrant says the prescribed prayer while holding the vessel with Eucharistic bread slightly above the altar (141) and only then places it on the altar. Meanwhile the deacon pours wine and water into the chalice (178) and hands the chalice to the priest celebrant. He then says the appropriate prayer while holding the chalice slightly above the altar (142) and only then places it on the altar.

The priest celebrant bows to say the next prayer silently. (143). He then prepares the incense, if used, incensing the gifts with three swings of the censer or a simple sign of the cross (75, 144, 277), followed by incensing the cross and altar, and the people (75).

Afterward, the priest celebrant washes his hands at the side of the altar (76, 145). The prayers of the priest celebrant and deacon during the preparation of the gifts are to be said inaudibly (141-145). When there is no singing, it is it permitted (but not required) for the priest celebrant to say the “Blessed are you…” prayers aloud (142).

At the center of the altar, the priest celebrant then greets the people, inviting all to pray. After the people stand and respond, the priest celebrant says the Prayer Over the Gifts (77, 146).

The priest celebrant then begins the Eucharistic Prayer, the “center and summit of the entire celebration” (78, 147). It is appropriate for the priest celebrant to sing parts of the prayer (147); the people should also sing the various acclamations that are part of the prayer.

Incense may be used during the consecration when the host and the chalice are shown to the assembly (150, 179, 276e). During the final doxology, the priest celebrant elevates the paten with the host on it and the deacon elevates the chalice [in the absence of a deacon, the priest celebrant elevates both elements by himself] (151, 180).

After the Eucharistic Prayer, all stand to pray the Lord’s Prayer (81, 152).

After the prayer for peace (82, 154), the deacon invites all to exchange a sign of peace which everyone immediately shares with those nearby (82, 154). So as not to disturb the celebration, the priest celebrant normally remains in the sanctuary (154). However, for pastoral reasons the priest celebrant may extend a sign of peace to some members of the liturgical assembly near the sanctuary, for example, in the case of a funeral or wedding or when civic leaders are present (Appendix 82).

The Agnus Dei begins, during which the priest celebrant breaks the host (83, 155). The host used by the priest celebrant should be large enough so that at least some particles from it can be distributed to some of the people (321). The priest celebrant may be assisted by some of the concelebrants and the deacon as he distributes the consecrated hosts into other vessels. Other empty chalices and ciboria or patens are then brought to the altar if this is necessary. (Norms for the Distribution and Reception of Holy Communion Under Both Kinds in the Dioceses of the United States of America, NDRHC, no. 37)

After, the priest celebrant places a small piece of the host into the chalice while he recites the accompanying prayer for the commingling (83, 155). Then, he prepares himself for Communion by reciting inaudibly one of the preparation prayers found in the Roman Missal (84).

The priest celebrant genuflects and then shows the faithful the host held above the chalice (or above the paten) and invites them to communion (84, 157, 243, 268). After all recite, “Lord, I am not worthy …” the priest celebrant receives communion upon which the singing of the communion song begins immediately (86, 157-59).

I do not see ‘turn’ here, either.
 
… I do not see ‘turn’ here, either.
Look, you can play with this as much as you want, but the fact is that if there was any sort of requirement that the celebrant be facing the people all the time, there would be absolutely no reason for the Missal to ever say “face the people” or “facing the people” etc. Those rubrics exist precisely because the presumed posture in the OF is ad orientem. That it is usually not celebrated that way is another matter entirely.

I hand the torch to someone else now. I’ve had it.
 
Look, you can play with this as much as you want, but the fact is that if there was any sort of requirement that the celebrant be facing the people all the time, there would be absolutely no reason for the Missal to ever say “face the people” or “facing the people” etc. Those rubrics exist precisely because the presumed posture in the OF is ad orientem. That it is usually not celebrated that way is another matter entirely.

I hand the torch to someone else now. I’ve had it.
Ok.

After searching many documents, I cannot find anything that says the priest should face the people at the Liturgy of the Eucharist. As stated in GIRM 146 above, it seems to imply that the priest is facing the people and this agrees with my Daily Roman Missal third edition 1996.

However, in the Communion Rite of my DRM it says: ‘Taking the Host, he raises it slightly over the paten and facing the people, says aloud: This is the Lamb of God…’. After the people respond ‘Lord, I am not worthy…’, it says ‘facing the alter, the priest says quietly:…’. This would suggest that the posture for ‘facing the people’ and ‘facing the alter’ are not the same.

I still stand by my first statement that the Bishop has authority over the liturgy and should be the one to see about corrections.
 
I still stand by my first statement that the Bishop has authority over the liturgy and should be the one to see about corrections.
Again, a local Ordinary has some authority, but not over the norms, expressed or implied, of the missal itself. And at the risk of repeating myself, ad orientem is NOT a “correction” or a “change” or anything of the sort.

Bye. 👋
 
Again, a local Ordinary has some authority, but not over the norms, expressed or implied, of the missal itself. And at the risk of repeating myself, ad orientem is NOT a “correction” or a “change” or anything of the sort.

Bye. 👋
SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM
In conclusion, dear Brothers, I very much wish to stress that these new norms do not in any way lessen your own authority and responsibility, either for the liturgy or for the pastoral care of your faithful. ** Each Bishop, in fact, is the moderator of the liturgy in his own Diocese **(cf. Sacrosanctum Concilium, 22: “Sacrae Liturgiae moderatio ab Ecclesiae auctoritate unice pendet quae quidem est apud Apostolicam Sedem et, ad normam iuris, apud Episcopum”).

Nothing is taken away, then, from the authority of the Bishop, whose role remains that of being watchful that all is done in peace and serenity. Should some problem arise which the parish priest cannot resolve, the local Ordinary will always be able to intervene, in full harmony, however, with all that has been laid down by the new norms of the Motu Proprio.

👋
 
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