Identify the heresy

[Gorgias]

So, again, to say that Mary is the Mother of Christ but not the Mother of God is heresy.

Here’s the thing, though: it’s a completely different thing to say “to affirm Christotokos but deny Theotokos is heresy” than it is to say “Mary is Christotokos (and then not mention Theotokos)”. Sure, the former is heresy… but the latter is not.

That’s the point being made here. The mere use of one title, without using the other, does not rise to heresy, no matter how much one dislikes a particular hymn.

 

[AugustTherese]

Here’s the thing, though: it’s a completely different thing to say “to affirm Christotokos but deny Theotokos is heresy” than it is to say “Mary is Christotokos (and then not mention Theotokos)”. Sure, the former is heresy… but the latter is not.

Absolutely! You and I can grasp and articulate that distinction unambiguously. Others may not have that skill.

The point is, @Roseeurekacross alluded to the Nestorian heresy in all of her posts to provide a context for what she was trying to say. Instead of people charitably seeking clarification, they impetuously labeled her words as heresy. I understood what she was trying to say. Instead of stating with emphasis, “Now, that’s heresy”, perhaps a more constructive approach could have been used.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Seriously, why is this still being discussed? This horse is well and truly beaten to death.

 

[AugustTherese]

Seriously, why is this still being discussed? This horse is well and truly beaten to death.

It’s CAF. What do you expect?! This thread is still under 100 posts. You want to see a horse beaten to death, go to the threads that have been around for many months with over 1k comments.

And, your post only ironically adds one more blow to the horse.

Certain people should not toss the word ‘heresy’ around in the manner that was done. Clarification and unraveling of ambiguity can be done with more kindness, no matter what your credentials are!

 

[RandomAlias]

@FrDavid96 and @Roseeurekacross, this was great, but next time please start your own thread. While the title of this thread is “Identify the heresy,” the OP was concerned specifically with the hymn he heard at Communion ([We] “receive the food of your Holy Word”).

To clarify his concern, in Post #4 he likened it to the Mother of Christ heresy, which he understood and explained perfectly well.

By Post #6 he considered his question answered and suggested closing the topic.

Thanks anyway for enlightening us about that other topic.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

…
However, now that I know his past, I really don’t like it. I simply don’t think an ex-priest who is publicly known as an active homosexual and living with his partner should take such center stage. I would say the same thing if it was an ex-priest who got married to a woman.

The Church does not let ex-priests do anything in a parish, other than sit in a pew. They may not act a lectors, EMHC, cantors, servers, etc. To me, Schutte is getting by on a technicality, and it bothers me.

This is the first I’ve heard about Dan Schutte’s personal life and if it were true that he is publically living against Church teaching then I’d share your concerns. So, I looked it up and the first references I found were in Church Militant. Then I found another from a liberal source - which referenced CM, and which sided with Schutte.

My reading of it is he is not “publically” in a homosexual relationship (if at all), but rather CM has outed him. That should make quite a difference.

If we were to expunge all church musicians with questionable private lives we’d lose many of them. For starters, Hayden had a mistress yet his music is played in cathedrals.

Very true. But for me, the bigger issue is that he’s an ex-priest. Ex-priests are bared from public ministry for a reason. Schutte seems to get around that by being a famous (or perhaps to some infamous) liturgical musician.

God bless

 

[pnewton]

However, to say that Mary is the Mother of Christ alone to the exclusion of her being the Mother of God

You just pulled a Martin Luther and added the word “alone.” Yes, that would make it a heresy.

Going back to the problem of the lyric about, “” Speak oh lord as we come to you to receive the food of your Holy Word," there is a common fallacy in both accusations of fallacy. To be a heresy, some revealed truth must be denied. It is not sufficient to rise to the level of heresy simply to speak of this truth, but not that truth. Dogma must be denied. Implications do not count. Omissions do not count. Only denial counts as heresy.

The question may be legitimately considered whether a song might be ill-suited, possibly leading some in the parish to a wrong idea. That is why the Church lets these decisions be made locally.

 

[AugustTherese]

Yes, that would make it a heresy.

And, that’s exactly what Nestorius did and was anathematized for it. This was alluded to many times. I cannot help those who did not pick up on it.

 

[pnewton]

No one is arguing that Nestorius was not a heretic.

 

[AugustTherese]

No one is arguing that Nestorius was not a heretic.

Wonderful! I like the avatar of the kitty.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Thankyou August Therese

It has been a wonderful lesson in humility.
And in knowing even though we speak English, we don’t really speak the same language.
They say if there is a fault in communication, it’s with the one communicating.
I wear that. I will attempt to be very clear in future.
It’s been a tough week for me , burying my sister, so I have been more ‘no you guys don’t understand’, rather then taking the time to really elaborate when I was not understood.

But I stand by the fact the litany would not pass muster if mother of God was not there,

Also in the Liturgy of the Eucharist at Mass this morning, Monday, and everyday

The Priest says ‘Mary mother of God’ . Then my fav. St Joseph her most chaste spouse, or spouse.
Listen to the Liturgy of the Eucharist

 

[Roseeurekacross]

The title is ‘ identify the heresy’

I was discussing the heresy the OP identified. And so is AugustTherese

I haven’t tackled the reply by Gorgias. That would make a great new topic.