Idolatry & Disordered Affection

[guanophore]

There are some impostors here on this Board,who pretended to be catholics and you’re one of them!.To all Catholics here,please ignore JTBC.You are just wasting your precious time with her and her ilk.I f Im not mistaken,I read her posts in a anti Catholic website accusing the church as the whore of Babylon!

That would not surprise me at all. However, one cannot afford to ignore calumny. Such posts must be addressed, even if it is only for the benefit of the lurkers.

 

[maryj]

No it doesn’t. God probaby had the foresight to see why the use of images would be a problem for us - therfore He forbade it. There isn’t much practical or necessary use for an image, except, as you say, as an aid to prayer - but that isn’t a necessity.

Again and again: You ASSUME intention will excuse the use of images.

I hope you are right!

AGAIN, I will draw your attention to the Divine Mercy(tomorrow being Divine Mercy Sunday)
Our Lords words to St. Faustina when she asked in agony “who will paint You as beautiful as you are”
“Not in the beauty of the color, nor of the brush lies the greatness of the image, but in My grace”
these words came from our Lord after Jesus said to her to paint an image, the Divine Mercy.
So no we do not assume intention will excuse the use of images, Jesus instructs us to use an image of Him.
Your argument is moot. I will remember you in my prayers on Divine Mercy Sunday, know you will be included in my intentions.
God Bless Maryj

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

There are some impostors here on this Board,who pretended to be catholics and you’re one of them!.To all Catholics here,please ignore JTBC.You are just wasting your precious time with her and her ilk.I f Im not mistaken,I read her posts in a anti Catholic website accusing the church as the whore of Babylon!

And I suppose you can prove that? Besides, I am well aware that the author of “Whore of Babylon” recanted. I’ve no interest in promoting his unsupportable and ridiculous conclusions.

It is entirely clear to me that many of you people (on this thread, at least) can’t handle having your beliefs challenged. You aren’t apologists. Perhaps some of you don’t have the faith you thought you had in the RCC, b/c if you did, you would remain at peace even in the midst of discussion that challenged your faith. All the defensiveness, the false accusations… it reveals your instability in your faith. Thankfully some of you are solid in your faith and can explain it rationally and calmly without being shaken - which is a benefit to everyone. I would suggest that those who don’t, refrain from posting to the apologetics forum at all, b/c it detracts from your intergrity as a knowlegeable or faithful Catholic.

So, you find my non-Catholic p.o.v. offensive? Why? B/c it is non-CAthlic? Or b/c I accused someone of something? I did no such thing! Read the thread again - I am presenting what I consider to be valid, biblical reasons why I think it is wrong that the church encourage the use of images. You don’t agree - that is fine! Just tell me why and we can discuss it. I’m not going to do a 360 in one week on this thread b/c you gave me a reason you think it is okay. My mind doesn’t work that way. The more time I take to think about and pray about something, the clearer it becomes for me.

I think you all present some good arguments here about images. I’ve had a few, hmmmmm, moments that resulted in some pretty ridiculous comebacks (from my side). Arguing against you will eventually exhaust every possible angle I can come at this with so that I will feel I’ve really given it everything I can in evaluating it. Then it will be easier for me to re-look at all the different sides of this - all the different things to consider - and see just how much sense my p.o.v. really made (if any ).

AGAIN, I will draw your attention to the Divine Mercy(tomorrow being Divine Mercy Sunday)
Our Lords words to St. Faustina when she asked in agony “who will paint You as beautiful as you are”
“Not in the beauty of the color, nor of the brush lies the greatness of the image, but in My grace”
these words came from our Lord after Jesus said to her to paint an image, the Divine Mercy.
So no we do not assume intention will excuse the use of images, Jesus instructs us to use an image of Him.
Your argument is moot. I will remember you in my prayers on Divine Mercy Sunday, know you will be included in my intentions.
God Bless Maryj

Maryj, I really don’t know what to believe about apparitions. It used to be such a confirmation of my faith. A very old friar at the Franciscan friary here used to be my confessor. When my doubts began he gave me a pamphlet he had written on the truths of the Catholic faith and proofs of its divinity. One of his points was that miracles were one of the proofs of the divinity of Christ and why wouldn’t it be a mark of the OTC. He points out that if we can come to faith in Christ through the witnessing of miracles, why wouldn’t we recognize His church the same way? I think it is a good point, but then I remember the words of Christ about great “signs and wonders” and apparitions of Jesus: “believe them not” He said. I have to look at the message that these apparitions give. Some of them are questionable to me - putting an emphasis on Mary for instance - sometimes I think it detracts from Jesus (“I will not share my glory with another”“there is one mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ”). The Divine Mercy - well, the focus is on Jesus, clearly. It is an appeal to the Father, through the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, to accept His sacrifice, for our sake and the sake of the world. I guess I can’t see anything wrong with that. I suppose the image would be questionable, unless God truly did order it to be made. I can’t say for sure He did or didn’t. I simply don’t know what to think of that.

Y’know - my oldest daughter still says “it’s 3:00 mom” sometimes. She hasn’t forgotten the devotion.

I can’t really rest my faith on something like that. I do appreciate your prayers though. The Divine Mercy was a devotion very close to my heart.

Peace~

 

[guanophore]

So, you find my non-Catholic p.o.v. offensive? Why? B/c it is non-CAthlic? Or b/c I accused someone of something? I did no such thing! Read the thread again - I am presenting what I consider to be valid, biblical reasons why I think it is wrong that the church encourage the use of images. You don’t agree - that is fine! Just tell me why and we can discuss it. I’m not going to do a 360 in one week on this thread b/c you gave me a reason you think it is okay. My mind doesn’t work that way. The more time I take to think about and pray about something, the clearer it becomes for me.

No, I did not find your non-Catholic view offensive. I used to be a Fundamentalist, and I have pretty much heard it all before. I found your disingenuous username offensive, and I found your assertions that everyone should espouse your private revelation a bit too audacious. I don’t expect anything said here will get you to change your mind. You had it made up pretty well a long time ago. I am not sure why you are here, except to find fault with others.

I think you all present some good arguments here about images. I’ve had a few, hmmmmm, moments that resulted in some pretty ridiculous comebacks (from my side). Arguing against you will eventually exhaust every possible angle I can come at this with so that I will feel I’ve really given it everything I can in evaluating it. Then it will be easier for me to re-look at all the different sides of this - all the different things to consider - and see just how much sense my p.o.v. really made (if any ).

Perhaps then you will be able to go have your believers baptism in peace?

Some of them are questionable to me - putting an emphasis on Mary for instance - sometimes I think it detracts from Jesus ("I will not share my glory with another""there is one mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ").

Perhaps you can say where you find that God does not share His glory? I see nothing but that in the whole history of HIs relationship with people. Remember Moses’ face when he came off the mountain?

God is generous, and has allowed us to enter into his ministry of mediation, to bring the world to himself.

 I guess I can't see anything wrong with that. I suppose the image would be questionable, unless God truly did order it to be made. I can't say for sure He did or didn't. I simply don't know what to think of that.

Are you LOOKING for stuff to see wrong?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

You’ll be happy to know that I’m through with this forum. I’ve admitted that I see reason in some of your points of view. I’ve explained why I argue the way I do. I’ve not accused a single person here of idolatry…

I’m sick of trying to defend myself…

At this point it’s totally unconstructive to remain and try to discuss things with unreasonable people.

Thankfully I don’t judge a church by it’s members. One thing for sure - you haven’t won any Catholic converts in this thread!

Lord have mercy. I’m not perfect, and Lord have mercy on me too, but you all are really off the deep end here, and accountable for your ungodly behaviour.

My advice to seekers: “They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another”.

Peace~

 

[planter654]

A Catholic is one who embraces the Teachings of the Catholic Church. Since you have been clear that you do not, it is disingenuous for you to portray yourself as though you are. Your posts have been judgemental. Perhaps what you are saying is true, and that was not your purpose, but it was the fruit of your action, and therefore, the heart, for the mouth speaks that which fills the heart.

If you want to report me again it is your choice to the moderator that is your choice. I should have said I was protestant maybe I would have no reports on me!

What is not clear to you is that you are not clear of my heart and soul! So quit telling me who you think I am! How do you know peoples minds, thougths and how they live their lives or who do you think you really know personally here.

Yes, my mouth does speak the truth of my Heart and mind. I will not lie about my personal love for God first and not the CC instead. God created me and loves me! I worship God and only God first! Believe me I know I can be rebellious, but I will let you in on a secret God knows that much better then you.

Would you not say Jesus was rebellious too? You see he Worship God only! Jesus said if they hate you remember they hated me first!!

So! I confess my sins—What my heart tells me is that I don’t believe everything I hear and God knows me very well that I can be rebellious. Did you not know that some of the great Saints were rebellious also? Did you not know that. ST.Paul was rebellous in his own way he never gave up to the bitter end till he was murdered!

For you to point out my post have been judgemental read some of yours and don’t point the finger. We are all human and God did not create me to worship you. It is not disingenuous in doing what I am speaking, what comes out of my mouth is the truth in my heart!

Right now you are judging my heart because “I do speak the truth” and you do not like it for----- 'it goes against you and your personal belief "----- in the defense of the CC. I believe and know that the CC is where my faith was build upon and were I worship God. Will always worship God in the CC. I Love ,pray for our Pope, pray for our priest, bishops, nun all our faithful family, not just ours, but ours through out the world all nations I pray for and our enemies also whom I love and “sometimes it is not easy”. But God got me through it and now I truly forgive and mean it with all my heart.

But like all churches some do not always believe or accept or fined it very difficult to accept a couple of things and do have some doubts about certain things. Not about God or Jesus or Our Blessed Mother but about other humans like myself. We are all tested in different ways but in all brings us closer to God and the building of our faith.

I have God first! I worship God so I believe he will keep me safe. Even John the Baptize ask if Jesus was the one when he was in jail or if he should look for another.

What I am going through I will be fine and in time on my journey knowing God is with me and I trust in him. CC is where I feel at home with my family. CC has been my home place of worshipping God since God has placed me there from birth.

If you want me to agree with every word you said “I WOULD BE LYING”! And who needs a friend like that? But the truth does set you free and you are no longer in darkness! It is the sweetness of the Lord I have tasted and I won’t let him go!

God Bless Love and peace to you!

 

[guanophore]

You’ll be happy to know that I’m through with this forum. I’ve admitted that I see reason in some of your points of view. I’ve explained why I argue the way I do. I’ve not accused a single person here of idolatry…

Perhaps we see it differently?

I’m sick of trying to defend myself…

Actually, it is you that is attacking the faith practices of others. It is a pretty indefensible position, actually.

At this point it’s totally unconstructive to remain and try to discuss things with unreasonable people.

So, if we reason differently than you we are unreasonable?
I guess that goes along with, if we don’t worship according to your standards we commit idolatry?

Thankfully I don’t judge a church by it’s members. One thing for sure - you haven’t won any Catholic converts in this thread!

This is a very hard statement to accept, after you have just spent so much time doing the opposite!

You did not come to be converted, so it is no great loss, right?

Lord have mercy. I’m not perfect, and Lord have mercy on me too, but you all are really off the deep end here, and accountable for your ungodly behaviour.

Just more perfect than the rest of us “idolaters”. Or is there some other ungodly behavior you are accusing of as well?

My advice to seekers: “They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another”.

Confirming someone in error is not charitable.

Peace~

I wish you peace too. It seems clear you will not find it with anything Catholic, at least at this point in your life. Claiming that one has joy to be Catholic does not make it so, does it?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Btw - I’ve tried leaving this discussion at least twice now. Then after I say my good-byes someone inevitably submits a decent post. What was that? Bait? I feel obligated to answer when people continue to post (afterall, I started the thread b/c I wanted to discuss this). So, if you all don’t like what I have to say, then stop posting to this thread. In fact, it would be great to just lock it - unless the reason it hasn’t been locked sooner is so you all can continue to throw punches at your victims…

:dancing: I’m outta here!

 

[guanophore]

If you want to report me again it is your choice to the moderator that is your choice. I should have said I was protestant maybe I would have no reports on me!

I have never reported anyone on this forum, except myself, when I have gotten out of hand. Misrepresenting yourself, no matter how you do it, will not improve your reputation.

What is not clear to you is that you are not clear of my heart and soul! So quit telling me who you think I am! How do you know peoples minds, thougths and how they live their lives or who do you think you really know personally here.

You are right. All I can do is read your posts, and go from there. Perhaps, if you are not coming across as you intend, it could be your presentation?

Yes, my mouth does speak the truth of my Heart and mind. I will not lie about my personal love for God first and not the CC instead. God created me and loves me! I worship God and only God first! Believe me I know I can be rebellious, but I will let you in on a secret God knows that much better then you.

There is no distinction between God and His Church. Jesus identifies Himself completely with the Church. It is not an “either/or” “instead”.

We are all human and God did not create me to worship you. It is not disingenuous in doing what I am speaking, what comes out of my mouth is the truth in my heart!

At least we agree about something!

I believe and know that the CC is where my faith was build upon and were I worship God. Will always worship God in the CC. I Love ,pray for our Pope, pray for our priest, bishops, nun all our faithful family, not just ours, but ours through out the world all nations I pray for and our enemies also whom I love and “sometimes it is not easy”. But God got me through it and now I truly forgive and mean it with all my heart.

Well, more power to you. You certainly have the right to believe and “know” whatever your heart desires. I was only pointing out that some of your beliefs are not Catholic.

What I am going through I will be fine and in time on my journey knowing God is with me and I trust in him. CC is where I feel at home with my family. CC has been my home place of worshipping God since God has placed me there from birth.

Perhaps you could try going through the RCIA, and get some of your thinking straightened out?

If you want me to agree with every word you said “I WOULD BE LYING”! And who needs a friend like that?

I don’t expect you to, but if you say you are Catholic, and are purporting no-Catholic beliefs, something is not quite fitting together.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thanks to all who participated in this discussion.
This thread is now closed.
MF