Idolatry in an SBC Church

[stewstew03]

This morning I attended services at a southern baptist church (as some of you know, I am a convert to the faith, and if I don’t make it to mass on Saturday evening, I divide my Sundays between mass and ecclesial services with my wife).

Anyway, the first half of today’s service was dedicated to patriotism – saying the pledge of allegiance, singing our national anthem, as well as other patriotic “hymns” while patriotic symbols and images (e.g., the statue of liberty, a bald eagle, American flag) flashed up on the screen. Each attendee was also provided an American flag to wave during the festivities, and there were several American flags on stage.

I am all for patriotism – but is this appropriate for Sunday worship? The first half of the service had absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel; it was all about passion for 'Merica rather than Christ’s passion. Too often, evangelical Protestants are quick to label Catholics as idolaters or Mary worshippers when they may see a Catholic praying at the feet of a statue of Mary, or at the feet of a saint. I can only imagine how an evangelical Protestant would react if he or she went to a Catholic mass and saw images/relics of Mary, heard parishioners singing Marian hymns, saying the Hail Mary, etc… “Idolatry!”

At least Mary leads us to Christ; singing the Star Spangled Banner leads us to the sin of pride…

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNoz-sjCcAATcTM.jpg:large

 

[Indifferently]

Well, “God Save the Queen” is technically a Christian hymn, and I am considered very right wing and patriotic by my friends, but I detest using “I vow to thee my country”, “And did those feet in ancient time” etc in church. And I’ve probably heard both used as offertory hymns.

 

[Fairwinds]

…
Anyway, the first half of today’s service was dedicated to patriotism – saying the pledge of allegiance, singing our national anthem, as well as other patriotic “hymns” while patriotic symbols and images (e.g., the statue of liberty, a bald eagle, American flag) flashed up on the screen. Each attendee was also provided an American flag to wave during the festivities, and there were several American flags on stage…

cool.

its not a Mass. so what do you care?

 

[TC2]

I’m Baptist (of the southern variety), and I don’t like this either.

I agree that if it’s not God centered, it doesn’t belong. This stuff makes me cringe, too.
I’m thankful that this morning in church we did none of this, no flags, no pledge, no patriotic songs.

There’s no Weds service, and I hope we don’t do this next Sunday, either.
The sermon today was great, however. (about how sin is destroying this country and our families, and how we need to center on Christ again, in all aspects of our lives)

 

[4Squarebaby]

Sunday gatherings are not about worship alone. They are also about community building and fellowship. In a world where we work in the secular world five or six days a week, if we are lucky, the Sunday gathering serves dual purposes.

 

[Boston_Sem]

Well, “God Save the Queen” is technically a Christian hymn, and I am considered very right wing and patriotic by my friends, but I detest using “I vow to thee my country”, “And did those feet in ancient time” etc in church. And I’ve probably heard both used as offertory hymns.

Yes we’ve sung Jerusalem here in Boston as well. I love it!

 

[Allegra]

I don’t agree that this constitutes Idolatry, however, I agree it is misplaced. Not to be offensive toward Baptists, but I also don’t think it is a big a deal as it would be if this happened during the Mass. I does go against what I expect a worship service to consist of though. I would probably be annoyed as well.

 

[Allegra]

Sunday gatherings are not about worship alone. They are also about community building and fellowship. In a world where we work in the secular world five or six days a week, if we are lucky, the Sunday gathering serves dual purposes.

See, this mindset is why it’s not such a big deal. Protestant gatherings are not in the presense of the Eucharist, so it can have as many purposes as they want. They can have a short concert, pass around donuts and coffee, allow individual members to give personal testimony, allow the kids to do a skit, discuss the needs of the volley ball team, or whatever they want to do. If you think about it, it’s completly different than Mass, which has a very specific purpose that should not be distracted by other things. It’s shocking to a Catholic to see that sort of thing happening at a Sunday service, but before one gets worked up, one should remember that it isn’t the same thing as a Mass. It’s more like a community meeting.

 

[Rete]

Today at mass we were told America is going to hell in a hand basket and that we are required to resist objectively evil policies and give witness to God’s commandments. I couldn’t argue with that.

I wonder if it ever occurs to those Baptists they are making the same assumptions about God’s blessing of their nation as the Gentiles. If America had to operate under even the simplest Covenant of the Jews, then we would be a permanent black spot on this side of the planet by now.

 

[Allegra]

Today at mass we were told America is going to hell in a hand basket and that we are required to resist objectively evil policies and give witness to God’s commandments. I couldn’t argue with that.

I wonder if it ever occurs to those Baptists they are making the same assumptions about God’s blessing of their nation as the Gentiles. If America had to operate under even the simplest Covenant of the Jews, then we would be a permanent black spot on this side of the planet by now.

To be fair, displaying a sense of patriotism and love of one’s country does not suggest approval or complacancy in every policy of that country’s government. I’m certain there are any number of things the government does that the Baptists don’t approve of.

 

[lutherlic]

I’m Baptist (of the southern variety), and I don’t like this either.
…
The sermon today was great, however. (about how sin is destroying this country and our families, and how we need to center on Christ again, in all aspects of our lives)

Today at mass we were told America is going to hell in a hand basket and that we are required to resist objectively evil policies and give witness to God’s commandments. I couldn’t argue with that.

…(I don’t do the happy icon stuff often, well… ever, but it seems to fit here.)

 

[Country_Gal]

I agree, it’s not God centered. I love that hymn that acknowledges that other Christians love their respective nations as well. What’s the name of is, it’s really nice?.

 

[Jon_S_1]

This morning I attended services at a southern baptist church (as some of you know, I am a convert to the faith, and if I don’t make it to mass on Saturday evening, I divide my Sundays between mass and ecclesial services with my wife).

Anyway, the first half of today’s service was dedicated to patriotism – saying the pledge of allegiance, singing our national anthem, as well as other patriotic “hymns” while patriotic symbols and images (e.g., the statue of liberty, a bald eagle, American flag) flashed up on the screen. Each attendee was also provided an American flag to wave during the festivities, and there were several American flags on stage.

I am all for patriotism – but is this appropriate for Sunday worship? The first half of the service had absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel; it was all about passion for 'Merica rather than Christ’s passion. Too often, evangelical Protestants are quick to label Catholics as idolaters or Mary worshippers when they may see a Catholic praying at the feet of a statue of Mary, or at the feet of a saint. I can only imagine how an evangelical Protestant would react if he or she went to a Catholic mass and saw images/relics of Mary, heard parishioners singing Marian hymns, saying the Hail Mary, etc… “Idolatry!”

At least Mary leads us to Christ; singing the Star Spangled Banner leads us to the sin of pride…

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNoz-sjCcAATcTM.jpg:large

Looks like a pretty standard Evangelical Service to me. You know the bigger the better, the louder, the more glitz and glam the better.

These things that are supposed to bring people in are what drove me right out of the Evangelical Church.

Where is the worship of God in that?

 

[jericho777]

There is no doubt this country is going down very fast with the agenda of our current government. We need to repent and turn back to the God that made us a nation.

We have many religous national patriotic songs because it is our heritage as Christian nation. It is without question God has truly blessed our nation far above all other nations of the world. I think that Baptist service was trying to evoke reverence for that heritage and call America back to God. When I was catholic we would sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic at the Fourth of July. Was that too idolitrious? Do you have American flags in catholic churches? Is that idolitry also?

This is the fourth stanza of The Star Spangled Banner.

O thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war’s desolation.
Blest with vict’ry and peace, may the Heav’n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust.”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Looks like a pretty standard Evangelical Service to me. You know the bigger the better, the louder, the more glitz and glam the better.

These things that are supposed to bring people in are what drove me right out of the Evangelical Church.

Where is the worship of God in that?

Jon, if I remember correctly, most all of the Evangelical churches you attended were mega-churches. You can hardly call a picture like that a “standard Evangelical Service”, though it might seem common to you if all you’re used to is mega-churches.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon, if I remember correctly, most all of the Evangelical churches you attended were mega-churches. You can hardly call a picture like that a “standard Evangelical Service”, though it might seem common to you if all you’re used to is mega-churches.

Very true.

I should say, looks like typical Evangelical Mega Church Service.

Thanks!

 

[stewstew03]

See, this mindset is why it’s not such a big deal. Protestant gatherings are not in the presense of the Eucharist, so it can have as many purposes as they want. They can have a short concert, pass around donuts and coffee, allow individual members to give personal testimony, allow the kids to do a skit, discuss the needs of the volley ball team, or whatever they want to do. If you think about it, it’s completly different than Mass, which has a very specific purpose that should not be distracted by other things. It’s shocking to a Catholic to see that sort of thing happening at a Sunday service, but before one gets worked up, one should remember that it isn’t the same thing as a Mass. It’s more like a community meeting.

Excellent analysis…

 

[Fairwinds]

those assemblies are like picnics or kid’s parties. if they have a rock band on stage or performance art on their campuses, how can anyone say its “wrong”?

 

[Indifferently]

A lot of mega churches seem to be much less Evangelical Christianity and much more a sort of pop religion which is very light on doctrine and doesn’t dare to go much beyond the surface. It is better termed “Revivalism”. Evangelicalism in the classical sense is something else entirely.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

A lot of mega churches seem to be much less Evangelical Christianity and much more a sort of pop religion which is very light on doctrine and doesn’t dare to go much beyond the surface. It is better termed “Revivalism”. Evangelicalism in the classical sense is something else entirely.

I share this view.