idolatry?

[andersonbd1]

This question was posted on facebook. I don’t have time to respond right now, but thought maybe I’d post it here and just give a link to it.
Thanks,
Ben

God said to not bow. Yet Catholics do it and don’t think its wrong. Why?

Exodus 20: 4-6
4 - You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

5 - You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

6 - but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

God said that you shouldn’t make any idols in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. Yet the Catholics all make statues of Mary and bow to her and The Pope.

God said that you and others should never do that. Why is it that Catholics do it and don’t think it’s wrong? God said it is.

 

[beeliner]

This question was posted on facebook. I don’t have time to respond right now, but thought maybe I’d post it here and just give a link to it.
Thanks,
Ben

I don’t have time either, Ben. It’s too stupid to merit a reply, and anyone who would post that probably wouldn’t understand a reply anyway.

If you’d like to give a link, other posters here might wish to reply directly though.

 

[klule2k]

i think we should answer the question
when you look at a picture of someone you love adoringly, it does not mean you are in love with the picture

you know the guy you love is maybe miles away this just helps you to remember,

i hope i have shed some light

Fred

 

[crazzeto]

God said do not make graven images, and worship them. He didn’t say don’t make graven images period (protestants would all be going to hell if that was the case, y’all take pictures with a camera don’t you?) he didn’t even say don’t make graven images of heavenly things, otherwise he’d be codeming the very jews he told not to do this to hell

Exodus 25:
drbo.org/chapter/02025.htm

16 And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee. 17 Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half. 18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. 20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered.

More over, the very temple which house the Ark featured golden images, including that of calves and cherbum both as gigantic statues and graven into the walls.

What God condems is the worship of images instead of God. We can look to the Apocalypse for more clues to this:

Apocalypse 9
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=9&l=20&f=s#x

20 And the rest of the men, who were not slain by these plagues, did not do penance from the works of their hands, that they should not adore devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and wood, which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

God bless, I hope this information helps you.

 

[Poetess_Kera]

God said not to bow with the specific intent to worship. In the book of Revelation, Saint John knelt in front of an angel with the intent of worshipping him, and the angel knew that and said to worship only God. There are other parts of the Bible where people bowed and it was totally okay because they were showing respect. As for the statues part, God actually commanded people to make statues:

Numbers 21:7-9 – The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a serpent and put it up on a pole.” So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

However, when we begin to view these statues as divine entities, there’s a problem.

Judges 8:24 & 27 – And he [Gideon] said, “I do have one request, that each of you give me an earring from your share of the plunder. (It was the custom of the Ishmaelites to wear earrings.) Gideon made the gold into an ephod, which he placed in Ophrah, his town. All Israel prostituted themselves by worshiping it there, and it became a snare to Gideon and his family.

2 Kings 18:3-4 – Hezekiah did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, just as his father David had done. He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites **had been burning incense to it. **

God also asked people to make statues of gold seraphim for the Ark of the Covenant.

As long as we see these statues and icons as aids to worship, rather than the object thereof, there is absolutely no problem.

I hope this helps!

 

[juliamajor]

Let me get this straight- the bowing is the problem?
Who and what do you bow to makes all the difference.
I bow and genuflect by the altar.
I know who I’m bowing to and who I am worshiping.
If some people misconstrue,misunderstand or are just plain bigoted that’s their problem.
Many people like to stay in their own realm of ignorance parroting what others have said without finding out if it’s true or not,without trying to discern if they misunderstood .

 

[Mig]

I’m a bit offended with the first answer to the original question. Perhaps some of you have had your fill of those who come for unending debate. I don’t blame you for that. I’d ask though that you stop and recognize that there may be some who come here for honest and thoughtful conversation. I happen to be one of them, and to this point, I do have a concern with the creation of RELIGIOUS icons.

As Poetess Kera ponted out;
2 Kings 18:3-4 – “Hezekiah did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, just as his father David had done. He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it.”

This verse, along with thousands of years of human history, points out man’s propensity for wanting to worship RELIGIOUS icons and turn them into idols. I understand that Catholics say they use icons as an aid to worship, not as an Idol in any sense. To that I’d answer; you mean in the same way the God commanded a bronze serpent icon? It certainly had an original purpose too, but n a relatively short time, even a God commanded icon was misused wasn’t it?

Did God command you to make these icons? If so, please tell me. If not, then why even make them? Why create RELIGOIUS icons that history shows will likely end up stumbling some? Isn’t the Word in our Hearts sufficient?

 

[Rolltide]

I’m a bit offended with the first answer to the original question. Perhaps some of you have had your fill of those who come for unending debate. I don’t blame you for that. I’d ask though that you stop and recognize that there may be some who come here for honest and thoughtful conversation. I happen to be one of them, and to this point, I do have a concern with the creation of RELIGIOUS icons.

As Poetess Kera ponted out;
2 Kings 18:3-4 – “Hezekiah did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, just as his father David had done. He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it.”

This verse, along with thousands of years of human history, points out man’s propensity for wanting to worship RELIGIOUS icons and turn them into idols. I understand that Catholics say they use icons as an aid to worship, not as an Idol in any sense. To that I’d answer; you mean in the same way the God commanded a bronze serpent icon? It certainly had an original purpose too, but n a relatively short time, even a God commanded icon was misused wasn’t it?

Did God command you to make these icons? If so, please tell me. If not, then why even make them? Why create RELIGOIUS icons that history shows will likely end up stumbling some? Isn’t the Word in our Hearts sufficient?

Have you ever studied the arguments of the Iconoclastic Controversy of the eighth century? This was a problem for Leo III of the Byzantine Empire as well, only he was trying to eliminate Christian imagery in an attempt to woo some from the new Islamic faith back to the church (since they also ban imagery). In the end, after studying the arguments, neither Eastern OR Western Christians totally abandoned the use of images. First, they concluded there was nothing wrong with them, and second, they were ABSOLUTELY necessary in Western Europe. During the Dark Ages, literacy in the West was almost zero. If you weren’t a priest or a king, you almost certainly couldn’t read. Without statues, paintings, and stained glass in church to illustrate the various stories and figures from the Bible pictorially, ordinary people would never have been able to learn about Christianity. In the East, they turned to Icons, which are seen as “windows into heaven”. Imagine the frame being a window, with heaven on the other side. This is how they are taught to view their icons. They are also highly stylized, and filled with rich symbolism, to emphasize their nature as a teaching tool.

Idolatry, as understood by Catholics, is quite different than what you propose. Catholics would say that true idolatry would be like the Israelites worshiping the golden calf. Here is an image created as if it was a god to be worshiped. Catholic images actually help FOCUS worship upon God. Whether it be the statues of the great saints in church, forming a sort of “hall of fame” of great Christians for us to revere as role models for our life on earth, or the Crucifix, which reminds us of God’s great sacrifice, these images all serve a purpose. Now, there may always be a tiny minority of people who abuse these images, or misunderstand their purpose. However, when I have a Nativity set in my home for Christmas, I’m hardly kneeling before the figures of Mary and Joseph as divine gods with powers in their own right.

Please also keep in mind that the Eucharist is exempt from the idolatry charge for a completely different reason. Since Catholics actually believe that the Eucharist IS the PHYSICAL Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ in the flesh, when we bow down to it, we are bowing before God Himself, not a symbol.

 

[beeliner]

I’m a bit offended with the first answer to the original question. Perhaps some of you have had your fill of those who come for unending debate. I don’t blame you for that. I’d ask though that you stop and recognize that there may be some who come here for honest and thoughtful conversation. I happen to be one of them, and to this point, I do have a concern with the creation of RELIGIOUS icons.

As Poetess Kera ponted out;
2 Kings 18:3-4 – “Hezekiah did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, just as his father David had done. He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it.”

This verse, along with thousands of years of human history, points out man’s propensity for wanting to worship RELIGIOUS icons and turn them into idols. I understand that Catholics say they use icons as an aid to worship, not as an Idol in any sense. To that I’d answer; you mean in the same way the God commanded a bronze serpent icon? It certainly had an original purpose too, but n a relatively short time, even a God commanded icon was misused wasn’t it?

Did God command you to make these icons? If so, please tell me. If not, then why even make them? Why create RELIGOIUS icons that history shows will likely end up stumbling some? Isn’t the Word in our Hearts sufficient?

Since I was the author of the post to which you refer, I feel compelled to reply.

I have no problem with anyone, Catholic, non-Catholic, or non-theist, questioning or stating their objections to certain Catholic doctrines that might reasonably be regarded as controversial.

Attempting to perpetuate nonsense, such as Catholics worshipping statues, not being allowed to read the Bible, or that church rectories and convents are connected by secret passageways are in a different category. One needs to remind those, especially those who call themselves Christians, who propagate such tales that false witness is a sin, a direct violation of a commandment.

Cathlolics have statues of God’s great heroes and heroines in their churches for the same reason that statues of great Americans stand in the US Capitol. They are intended as objects of remembrance and of inspiration.

Also, the doctine of the Communion of Saints is an article of the Apostle’s Creed and is thereby shared by several Protestant denominations, though its interpretation might differ somewhat across sectarian lines.

The idea that God is somehow jealous of the veneration given to His beloved Mother and to those who have achieved their eternal reward by their lives in His service, is really quite bizarre - at least it seems so to me.

 

[crazzeto]

@beeliner

I understand your fustration, but we should always offer charity to our Christian brothers and sisters. It might be old to us, but it almost certainly isn’t old to them. They’ve been brought up with misguided beliefs about us, we should work to correct those beleifs with out snapping.

 

[andersonbd1]

+1 crazzeto

Yes, it is tiring, but it is absolutely necessary.

 

[Mig]

Have you ever studied the arguments of the Iconoclastic Controversy of the eighth century? This was a problem for Leo III of the Byzantine Empire as well, only he was trying to eliminate Christian imagery in an attempt to woo some from the new Islamic faith back to the church (since they also ban imagery). In the end, after studying the arguments, neither Eastern OR Western Christians totally abandoned the use of images. First, they concluded there was nothing wrong with them, and second, they were ABSOLUTELY necessary in Western Europe. During the Dark Ages, literacy in the West was almost zero. If you weren’t a priest or a king, you almost certainly couldn’t read. Without statues, paintings, and stained glass in church to illustrate the various stories and figures from the Bible pictorially, ordinary people would never have been able to learn about Christianity. In the East, they turned to Icons, which are seen as “windows into heaven”. Imagine the frame being a window, with heaven on the other side. This is how they are taught to view their icons. They are also highly stylized, and filled with rich symbolism, to emphasize their nature as a teaching tool.

Idolatry, as understood by Catholics, is quite different than what you propose. Catholics would say that true idolatry would be like the Israelites worshiping the golden calf. Here is an image created as if it was a god to be worshiped. Catholic images actually help FOCUS worship upon God. Whether it be the statues of the great saints in church, forming a sort of “hall of fame” of great Christians for us to revere as role models for our life on earth, or the Crucifix, which reminds us of God’s great sacrifice, these images all serve a purpose. Now, there may always be a tiny minority of people who abuse these images, or misunderstand their purpose. However, when I have a Nativity set in my home for Christmas, I’m hardly kneeling before the figures of Mary and Joseph as divine gods with powers in their own right.

Please also keep in mind that the Eucharist is exempt from the idolatry charge for a completely different reason. Since Catholics actually believe that the Eucharist IS the PHYSICAL Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ in the flesh, when we bow down to it, we are bowing before God Himself, not a symbol.

Thank you. This is the kind of reply I’m looking for. I’m here to learn. If I find myself unable to become Catholic, I’ll simply leave. To answer your question I know virtually nothing about the early Church. That’s one reason I’m here. The trouble is everytime I ask a question, the answer causes a bunch of new questions.

 

[Mig]

Since I was the author of the post to which you refer, I feel compelled to reply.

I have no problem with anyone, Catholic, non-Catholic, or non-theist, questioning or stating their objections to certain Catholic doctrines that might reasonably be regarded as controversial.

Attempting to perpetuate nonsense, such as Catholics worshipping statues, not being allowed to read the Bible, or that church rectories and convents are connected by secret passageways are in a different category. One needs to remind those, especially those who call themselves Christians, who propagate such tales that false witness is a sin, a direct violation of a commandment.

Cathlolics have statues of God’s great heroes and heroines in their churches for the same reason that statues of great Americans stand in the US Capitol. They are intended as objects of remembrance and of inspiration.

Also, the doctine of the Communion of Saints is an article of the Apostle’s Creed and is thereby shared by several Protestant denominations, though its interpretation might differ somewhat across sectarian lines.

The idea that God is somehow jealous of the veneration given to His beloved Mother and to those who have achieved their eternal reward by their lives in His service, is really quite bizarre - at least it seems so to me.

I understand. Consider though, that not everyone has your store of knowledge to fall back on. Also consider that not everyone who comes here to disagree comes with an antagonistic agenda.

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

An idol is a representation of a false (pagan) god, Catholics do not worship or make statues of pagan deities.

Catholics worship one Image alone, Jesus (Col 1:15)

The commandment was a prohibition of worshiping false gods. Animals were mentioned in the commandment since Egyptian gods were represented by animals.

“The second commands us not to make the image of any living creature to worship it.”—Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 3, Chapter 5, Paragraph 5

“And the second commandment is the summary of all those laws which can possibly be enacted, about all the things made by hands, such as images and statues, and, in short, erections of any kind, of which the painters’ and statuaries’ arts are pernicious [ie wicked] creators, for that commandment forbids such images to be made, and prohibits the cleaving to any of the fabulous inventions about the marriage of gods and the birth of gods, and the number of indescribable and painful calamities which are represented to have ensued from both such circumstances.”—Philo, The Decalogue, Line 156, paragraph XXIX

So the commandment was simply a prohibition against the worship of pagan gods via idols. It obviously was not a prohibition against making animal statues or statues of people or angels since all these were done in the bible by God’s command.

 

[chosen_people]

When men make a man into a god they lead themselves down this path. It is not idolatry in the same way as when when a Buddhist bows down before a Buddha. . Both the Christian and the Buddhist would deny that they are involved in any way in idolatry. Jews and their God would tend to disagree.

 

[Mig]

When men make a man into a god they lead themselves down this path. It is not idolatry in the same way as when when a Buddhist bows down before a Buddha. . Both the Christian and the Buddhist would deny that they are involved in any way in idolatry. Jews and their God would tend to disagree.

Great Videos!

 

[beeliner]

1. I understand. Consider though, that not everyone has your store of knowledge to fall back on.
2. Also consider that not everyone who comes here to disagree comes with an antagonistic agenda.

Taking them in reverse order:

1. I never suggested that, only that the facebook page to which the original poster referred (but did not provide a link) was probably antigonistic and…
2. That that antagonism was probably the result of ignorance…

 

[stopthependulum]

Here’s my take on what idolatry is. Simply put, idolatry is worshipping a god made in the image of man instead worshipping God, who made man in His image.

 

[Poetess_Kera]

Here’s my take on what idolatry is. Simply put, idolatry is worshipping a god made in the image of man instead worshipping God, who made man in His image.

Well said!