Idolatry?

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In another thread (one I do not wish to detract from) it is claimed that Catholic’s use the rationale of pagans (worshiping God who is manifest in an object and not the object itself) when worshiping before a statue or image of God. I am curious how Muslims feel this differs from when a Muslim bows before the Ka’bah to worship Allah?

Please note I am not accusing Muslims of worshipping a meteorite. I know that would be a gross distortion of Islam, I am just curious if the above claim encompasses the belief of the majority of Muslims or if this is simply a intentional distortion to attack a different faith and to overlook the similarities between the faiths.

Thanks.

George
 
Hi George, i do plan to address your question, hopefully tomorrow i will have time to reply. Just finished a lengthy reply on another thread and thats all i have time for tonight.
 
George Waters:
In another thread (one I do not wish to detract from) it is claimed that Catholic’s use the rationale of pagans (worshiping God who is manifest in an object and not the object itself) when worshiping before a statue or image of God. I am curious how Muslims feel this differs from when a Muslim bows before the Ka’bah to worship Allah?

Please note I am not accusing Muslims of worshipping a meteorite. I know that would be a gross distortion of Islam, I am just curious if the above claim encompasses the belief of the majority of Muslims or if this is simply a intentional distortion to attack a different faith and to overlook the similarities between the faiths.

Thanks.

George
Remembring that Muslims have very strict definition of worship, I am puzzled that this escape them.

Mohammad did circle the Kaaba which is nothing but rock .
It symbolised Allah, worshipped with lesser gods made of different idols at the time of a youthful Mohammad.

In any case, it seems to me pretty much the same thing that Muslims object regarding worship. Correct me if I’m wrong.
 
Sorry George for not addressing this question earlier.

The Kabaa is basically a cubic building which Muslims believe was built by Abraham and his son Ismael for the purpose of worshipping God. It is refered to as the House of Allah (God) and the recognized as the place for making pilgrimage for the sake of God.

The Kabaa is NOT imaged as God in any way, shape, or form, but rather is taken simply as a direction for Muslims to pray and supplicate to God. During the time of the prophet Muhammed, the muslims would pray in the direction of Jerusalem, specifically Masjid al Aqsa. God then revealed to the Prophet Muhammed to change his direction of prayer towards the Kabaa.

Basically regarding the Ka’baa, Muslims believe the origin of it is from the time of the Prophet Adam. He built it as the first place of worship upon the earth.

God says in the Quran:
“Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-'Alamîn (the mankind and jinns).” [3:96]

In a Prophetic saying narrated by Abu Dhar: I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Which mosque was first built on the surface of the earth?” He said, “Al-Masjid-ul-,Haram (in Mecca).” I said, “Which was built next?” He replied “The mosque of Al-Aqsa ( in Jerusalem) .” I said, “What was the period of construction between the two?” He said, “Forty years.” He added, “Wherever (you may be, and) the prayer time becomes due, perform the prayer there, for the best thing is to do so (i.e. to offer the prayers in time).” [Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 585: and also in Muslim]

So Adam established the Ka’ba as the first House of Allah, the first place where God would be worshiped alone, as God says in the Quran describing the Masjid: “And the mosques are for Allâh (Alone), so do not invoke anyone along with Allâh.” [Surah alJinn:18]

It was later on that the Prophet Ibraheem, along with his son Isma’eel, were commanded to rebuild the ka’ba. God says in the Quran: “and We commanded Ibraaheem (Abraham) and Ismaa’eel (Ishmael) that they should purify My House (the Ka‘bah at Makkah) for those who are circumambulating it, or staying, or bowing or prostrating themselves (there, in prayer)” [al-Baqarah 2:125]

Upon the completion of the rebuilding of the ka’ba, Pilgrimage to the Ka’ba was then proclaimed to mankind, as God says: “And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage). They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj)” [al-Hajj 22:27]

Ibn Katheer, one of the great scholars of the explanation of the Quran, says in his commentary on this verse: "This means: Proclaim (O Ibraaheem) the Hajj to the people, calling them to come on pilgrimage to this House which We have commanded you to build. It was mentioned that he said, “O Lord, how can I proclaim it to the people when my voice does not reach them?” He said, “Call and We will convey it.” So he stood in his maqaam (station) – or it was said, on the rock, or on al-Safa, or on Abu Qubays (a mountain) – and said: “O people, your Lord has taken a House, so come to it on pilgrimage.” And it was said that the mountains lowered themselves so that his voice could reach all parts of the earth and those who were still in the wombs or in men’s loins also heard, and everything that heard him, cities, nomad encampments and trees, and everyone whom Allaah has decreed should perform Hajj until the Day of Resurrection responded, (saying) Labbayk Allaahumma labbayk (Here I am, O Allaah, here I am. This is the summary of what was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas, Mujaahid, ‘Ikrimah, Sa’eed ibn Jubayr and others among the salaf. And Allaah knows best. "

Al-Qurtubi, another great scholar in the explanation of the Quran, said: "Hajj was known to the Arabs. When Islam came, they were told about something they already knew and what was enjoined upon them was something they were familiar with…”

continued…
 
continued…

However, by the time of the Prophet Muhammed, polytheism was widely being practiced and the Ka’ba was used as a storage place for the idols the people worshiped. So instead of the people worshiping God in the vicinity of the Kabaa, they were instead worshiping other than God. So after the conquest of Makkah, the idols were destroyed and once again, the Haram (The Kabaa and its vicinity) was reestablished for worshiping God alone.

After the conquest of Makkah, hajj was made obligatory upon the Muslims, and the prophet Muhammed taught the companions how to perform Hajj. Some might see the rituals of Hajj and not understand their purpose at first glance.

Ibn al-Jawzi, a great scholar in Islam, comments about the rituals of Hajj:
“The background to these rituals is no longer present but the rulings remain in effect. These rituals may be confusing for some who see them and do not know the reasons for them, so they may say, ‘This does not make sense.’ I have explained the reasons for them as far as narrated reports go, now I will explain to you the meanings behind them. Note that the basis for acts of worship is something rational and comprehensible, which is the submission of the slave to his Lord and obedience to Him.
Prayer involves humility and submission, which is is what is meant by the word ‘ibaadah (worship). Zakaah (Alms giving) involves kindness and helping the poor, so its meaning is clear. Fasting means suppressing the desires of the self so that it will be obedient to the One Whom it serves.
By honouring the House and going there, and establishing a sanctuary around it are acts of veneration. Arriving there unkempt and disheveled is like a slave turning to his Lord in humility and submission, and that is clear. A person feels at ease performing rituals that he understands, and that motivates him to do them, but to achieve full submission there are some rituals that a person may not understand, so he will not be at ease and will not comprehend them. In this case the only motive is to obey the commands of Allaah. This is a greater form of humility and submission.”
See Mutheer al-‘Azm al-Saakin (1.285-286).

For example, someone might not understand the ritual of kissing the black stone.

Muslims believe the the black stone was put there by Prophet Abraham and Isma’eel by the order of God, and the purpose of it was to indicate the beginning of Tawaf (circumabulation of the Ka`bah). Pilgrims start their count from the corner of the Kabaa where the stone is located, and after completing the 7th circumabulation and reach the corner where the stone is located, they know they have completed the Tawaf ritual.

We should be clear that the black stone is just a stone. It does not possess any special powers, and certianly isnt something possessing divine powers nor is it a symbol of God. When Umar ibn al-Khattab, the second Caliph, came to kiss the stone, he said, in front of all assembled: “No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah’s Messenger kissing you, I would not have kissed you.” [Reported in Al-Bukhaari (1610)]

So in conclusion, in following the rituals of the prophet Muhammed, pilgrims try to kiss the stone as they circumambulate the Kabaa, not holding any special reverence in the black stone itself. And as for the Kabaa itself, it is used as the direction of prayer for Muslims and recognized as the House of God where pilgrims go to worship God alone.

I hope thats helped clarify your doubts regarding the Kabaa and the black stone.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre,

Thank you for your response and taking the time to provide such excellent information on the Ka’ba. However, my question was not so much about the Ka’ba itself, but of the perceived differences between Catholic and Islamic worship. Honestly Hashi I felt you were trying to find a specific difference between our faiths that, in my opinion, does not really exist.

I know Muslims believe we should not associate partners with God. Believe it or not Catholic’s believe the same thing. Yes, the trinity is hard for Muslims to accept, it is sometimes hard for devout Christians to accept, and many members of this forum have done a far better job than I could to explaining the trinity, but we believe God is God, regardless of how he reveals himself to humanity. I have always felt that God is so immense, so magnificent and so wonderful that we can not even imagine His splendor and greatness. By reveling himself to us as one of us, we can see the perfect humanity of God. We can be inspired by his presence and his example. Many, many cultures believe there is nothing more noble than sacrificing yourself for your fellow man, and what better testimony and example can we have than God Himself sacrificing Himself for all of us?

You had said: “We should be clear that the black stone is just a stone. It does not possess any special powers, and certainly isn’t something possessing divine powers nor is it a symbol of God.” We can substitute the word stone for statue or painting or any other object and be in total agreement. My godmother gave me a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe years ago and it sits on my mantle at home. I do not worship it. I do treat it respect as it is a representation of a pregnant Mary. I am sure you treat your copy of the Quran in a similar fashion and understand that respect for something does not equate worship. I try to Honor all of God’s friends, be they Catholic or not, living or not. If I ask one of God’s friends, any friend, to pray for me it is no different than asking you to remember me in you prayers to Allah. I am not associating you with God, I am simply asking for you to pray to God on my behalf. To sacrifice a bit of your prayer time to ask for help for a fellow man.

I know we have some fundamental differences on many things, some of them I have mentioned in this post, but I do not think our worship of the One True God is so different. I am sure some will disagree with me, perhaps even you, but I believe God loves all of us and loves or uniqueness as individuals and our diversity as a people. We should always look to our similarities, respect our differences and rejoice in all of God’s truths.

I hope you are having a joyous Ramadan and that we can continue to discuss our differences while recognizing our similarities and embracing our love for God.

Peace,

George
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
continued…
So in conclusion, in following the rituals of the prophet Muhammed, pilgrims try to kiss the stone as they circumambulate the Kabaa, not holding any special reverence in the black stone itself. And as for the Kabaa itself, it is used as the direction of prayer for Muslims and recognized as the House of God where pilgrims go to worship God alone.

I hope thats helped clarify your doubts regarding the Kabaa and the black stone.
Sorry to butt in here. I’m trying to understand the explanation but sorry it still does not help. Early worshippers believed that the black stone is a rock from heaven. This certainly adds some novelty to it.

Million of pilgrims circumambulate the Kabaa and many of them successfully kiss it. If it is just rock, why go all the trouble? Isn’t Allah able to be anywhere?

The command to face Jerusalem and then changed to Mecca must pose difficulty about Allah’s fickle mind.
 
Reuben J:
Sorry to butt in here. I’m trying to understand the explanation but sorry it still does not help. Early worshippers believed that the black stone is a rock from heaven. This certainly adds some novelty to it.

Million of pilgrims circumambulate the Kabaa and many of them successfully kiss it. If it is just rock, why go all the trouble? Isn’t Allah able to be anywhere?

The command to face Jerusalem and then changed to Mecca must pose difficulty about Allah’s fickle mind.
hi…open… asiannews.it… you’ll see what’s hapenning with our brothers and sisters in asia.
 
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