Idolatry?

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In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

Booklover,

The same could be said of the Quran. That it’s the words of one man, Mohammed! IMHO you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about! Is this more of the nonsense you’re taught about other religions in order to bolster your faith in Islam and never question its authenticity?

I never had to learn anything derogatory about other religions in order to believe in mine!

Vickie
We are talking about idolatry and I didn’t even mention that your bible is falsified, which in fact, it is. I am talking about people listening to human decree and I consider it IDOLATRY. Please don’t try to be out of topic or doing “you too” argument. If you want, we can make one on one debate concerning the topic you want.
George,
You believe that the Quran is the word of Allah, correct? So why do you also have the works of the Companions? I honestly believe that Catholicism and Islam have many similarities, but most of the time we refuse to see any truth in the other.

Peace,

George​

First of all, I don’t even mention about your Bible, but your POPE’s Decree. So your answer is really out of topic. We are talking about idolatry, not about the faith in our books.
 
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TheProphet:
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

Booklover,

The same could be said of the Quran. That it’s the words of one man, Mohammed! IMHO you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about! Is this more of the nonsense you’re taught about other religions in order to bolster your faith in Islam and never question its authenticity?

I never had to learn anything derogatory about other religions in order to believe in mine!

Vickie
We are talking about idolatry and I didn’t even mention that your bible is falsified, which in fact, it is. I am talking about people listening to human decree and I consider it IDOLATRY. Please don’t try to be out of topic or doing “you too” argument. If you want, we can make one on one debate concerning the topic you want.
George,
You believe that the Quran is the word of Allah, correct? So why do you also have the works of the Companions? I honestly believe that Catholicism and Islam have many similarities, but most of the time we refuse to see any truth in the other.

Peace,

George​

First of all, I don’t even mention about your Bible, but your POPE’s Decree. So your answer is really out of topic. We are talking about idolatry, not about the faith in our books.
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TheProphet

You may consider my answer off topic, but as I started this thread and you claimed Papal decrees are idolatry (and in your response to Booklover the supposed corruption of the Bible) I am willing to discuss these in context of idolatry. If you are not I suggest you don’t bring them up.

You claimed that Papal decrees are Idolatry. I simply asked how they differ from the works of the Companions, or are they idolatry on your part?

You claim the Bible is corrupt. Prove it. Show us the earlier non-corrupted version so we can see exactly what has been corrupted. If you are truthful, bring your proof. If you have none, than your claim is a baseless allegation simply used to bolster your own agenda. I’ll be waiting, though I should tell you I have asked at least two other member of this forum for proof of corruption and both have left this forum without ever offering any evidence.
 
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

George,

TheProphet

You may consider my answer off topic, but as I started this thread and you claimed Papal decrees are idolatry (and in your response to Booklover the supposed corruption of the Bible) I am willing to discuss these in context of idolatry. If you are not I suggest you don’t bring them up.

You claimed that Papal decrees are Idolatry. I simply asked how they differ from the works of the Companions, or are they idolatry on your part?

You claim the Bible is corrupt. Prove it. Show us the earlier non-corrupted version so we can see exactly what has been corrupted. If you are truthful, bring your proof. If you have none, than your claim is a baseless allegation simply used to bolster your own agenda. I’ll be waiting, though I should tell you I have asked at least two other member of this forum for proof of corruption and both have left this forum without ever offering any evidence.​

We are talking about Idolatry here. And correct me if I am wrong, but Idolatry is to treat something with the same respect and adoration we have to God.
You can open the tread about Bible Falsification if you like. But in this thread tell me, Isn’t it Idolatry to treat Vatican Decree as something Godly? As precious as God’s Words?
 
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TheProphet:
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

George,

TheProphet

You may consider my answer off topic, but as I started this thread and you claimed Papal decrees are idolatry (and in your response to Booklover the supposed corruption of the Bible) I am willing to discuss these in context of idolatry. If you are not I suggest you don’t bring them up.

You claimed that Papal decrees are Idolatry. I simply asked how they differ from the works of the Companions, or are they idolatry on your part?

You claim the Bible is corrupt. Prove it. Show us the earlier non-corrupted version so we can see exactly what has been corrupted. If you are truthful, bring your proof. If you have none, than your claim is a baseless allegation simply used to bolster your own agenda. I’ll be waiting, though I should tell you I have asked at least two other member of this forum for proof of corruption and both have left this forum without ever offering any evidence.​

We are talking about Idolatry here. And correct me if I am wrong, but Idolatry is to treat something with the same respect and adoration we have to God.
You can open the tread about Bible Falsification if you like. But in this thread tell me, Isn’t it Idolatry to treat Vatican Decree as something Godly? As precious as God’s Words?
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Your attempt to link papal decrees to idolatry is laughable. Idolatry is; A) the worship of idols, which Catholic do not worship idols and a decree is not an image regarded as an object of worship anyway, and B) blind or excessive adoration or devotion, which is not the case in any way shape or form. So simple based on the correct definition of idolatry your argument is rendered null and void.

As far as opening another thread on “Bible Falsification” I’ll let you do that if you have proof. Which we all know you do not.
 
George Waters:
Your attempt to link papal decrees to idolatry is laughable. Idolatry is; A) the worship of idols, which Catholic do not worship idols and a decree is not an image regarded as an object of worship anyway, and B) blind or excessive adoration or devotion, which is not the case in any way shape or form. So simple based on the correct definition of idolatry your argument is rendered null and void.

As far as opening another thread on “Bible Falsification” I’ll let you do that if you have proof. Which we all know you do not.
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Muslims can be accused of idolatry for what you’ve mentioned above:

Blind or excessive adoration or devotion to Mohammed!
 
Prophet,

As you said, idolatry is placing something above God. It is honoring something in the way that you should honor God. In this sense a sin is idolatry because you submit to it before God. In your example of the pope and the other example of statues this is not the case. The pope is not a substitute for God. The pope is a teacher of God. Catholics do not genuflect or bow or kneel before a statue because it is God or because it can mediate our prayers to God or anything like that. We also kneel when we pray before going to sleep or when we wake up even though there is no icon or statue there in front of us. A muslim bowing before the kabah would be the same.

You mention the bible being falsified, I could say the same about the koran. Please stay on the topic.
 
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TheProphet:
We are talking about Idolatry here. And correct me if I am wrong, but Idolatry is to treat something with the same respect and adoration we have to God.
You can open the tread about Bible Falsification if you like. But in this thread tell me, Isn’t it Idolatry to treat Vatican Decree as something Godly? As precious as God’s Words?
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We do not treat anything as if it is God. God ordained the leaders of the Catholic Church to be the leaders of the Church. Therefore being obedient to them is obedience to God above. Nothing is done without the order of God.

We do not treat them as we treat God. We view the statements by the pope and bishops as being authoritative because God has chosen them to lead His people. In Islam you view all teaching as being in the koran. In Catholicism we view teaching as being through the bible and through the Church.
 
I would just like to make a small point… it is a common practise among some Muslims to pray at the Prophet’s (Mohammed, not the poster 😃 ) tomb in Medina and other such sacred places, however, of late (and this was confirmed by a muslim friend) the muttawa and other organisers have been hitting/driving away pilgrims who wait too long there, in accordance with the strict interpretation of Wahabi’s. They wish to prevent anything that could be suggestive of idolatory.
 
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TheProphet:
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

To George Water
This is interesting. May be I should first correct all of you that the meaning of IDOLATRY is not limited to statues in Catholic case or Holy Ka’abah. Idolatry is when you treat something more important than Allah. And for moslems, Allah is the most important thing, so no moslems do idolatry.
But one thing to be considered by Catholics, they have VATICAN DECREE which is considered infallible. I could say that it’s a kind of IDOLATRY too, because unlike Quran, it’s the words from a man (Pope).
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The Prophet, you are misunderstanding the doctrine. It is not that EVERYTHING that the Pope says is infallible. Perhaps you could read about the conditions under which a statement by the Pope infallible. Infallibility has been exercised only a few times in the history of the Church.

Moreover, is God incapable of protecting His servants from speaking error? No. He most certainly can if He wishes too, and we Catholics believe that He (God) does so, when the Pope chooses to speak infallibly (again, its very,very rare for the Pope to do that.)
 
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
George,

Your attempt to link papal decrees to idolatry is laughable. Idolatry is; A) the worship of idols, which Catholic do not worship idols and a decree is not an image regarded as an object of worship anyway, and B) blind or excessive adoration or devotion, which is not the case in any way shape or form. So simple based on the correct definition of idolatry your argument is rendered null and void.

As far as opening another thread on “Bible Falsification” I’ll let you do that if you have proof. Which we all know you do not.
And your answer is shallow and very laughable too.
what is idols? Money, fame, career can be idols. Everything that you put at the same degree or more than Allah is IDOLATRY.
And funny, blind or excessive adoration is FAITH. Isn’t your Bible which said that it’s better for people who didn’t see the RESURRECTION OF JESUS but believe. If you said that it’s a blind devotion, so be it.
My offer to open the thread of Bible Falsification is to let you know that we must focus in one thing, and not trying to drag aything to this thread. I see that your face is thick enough to satire.
Booklover,

Muslims can be accused of idolatry for what you’ve mentioned above:

Blind or excessive adoration or devotion to Mohammed!
I round your answer about blind devotion and adoration with my answer to george.
Jimmy,

Prophet,

As you said, idolatry is placing something above God. It is honoring something in the way that you should honor God. In this sense a sin is idolatry because you submit to it before God. In your example of the pope and the other example of statues this is not the case. The pope is not a substitute for God. The pope is a teacher of God. Catholics do not genuflect or bow or kneel before a statue because it is God or because it can mediate our prayers to God or anything like that. We also kneel when we pray before going to sleep or when we wake up even though there is no icon or statue there in front of us. A muslim bowing before the kabah would be the same.

You mention the bible being falsified, I could say the same about the koran. Please stay on the topic.
Yesterday 06:02 AM
I respect you for being honest enough and straight to the point. My point is that you treat Pope’s call or Pope’s decree as words of God. I will take some examples to prove my case:
  1. The crusaders - how many people were mislead to go to war to get to “heaven”? There’s no such concept in your Bible.
  2. The selling of purification letter came from Pope and it misled so many people to buy so their sin would be ommited.
    This only two cases shown that Pope’s decree in some cases misled you from your own teaching.
AJV,

I would just like to make a small point… it is a common practise among some Muslims to pray at the Prophet’s (Mohammed, not the poster ) tomb in Medina and other such sacred places, however, of late (and this was confirmed by a muslim friend) the muttawa and other organisers have been hitting/driving away pilgrims who wait too long there, in accordance with the strict interpretation of Wahabi’s. They wish to prevent anything that could be suggestive of idolatory.

The Prophet, you are misunderstanding the doctrine. It is not that EVERYTHING that the Pope says is infallible. Perhaps you could read about the conditions under which a statement by the Pope infallible. Infallibility has been exercised only a few times in the history of the Church.

Moreover, is God incapable of protecting His servants from speaking error? No. He most certainly can if He wishes too, and we Catholics believe that He (God) does so, when the Pope chooses to speak infallibly (again, its very,very rare for the Pope to do that.)
Hm, for the first point I don’t need to answer, because you yourself has answered that only SOME moslems thought that Holy Prophet’s tomb is a sacred place.

AJV, you could read my two sample of cases and you might refute what I said, if that was not correct.

In Islam and Christian, God gave free will. So your last argument seems childish. If God didn’t give free will in the first place, no man will be sinned.
 
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TheProphet:
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
I respect you for being honest enough and straight to the point. My point is that you treat Pope’s call or Pope’s decree as words of God. I will take some examples to prove my case:
  1. The crusaders - how many people were mislead to go to war to get to “heaven”? There’s no such concept in your Bible.
  2. The selling of purification letter came from Pope and it misled so many people to buy so their sin would be ommited.
    This only two cases shown that Pope’s decree in some cases misled you from your own teaching.
Hm, for the first point I don’t need to answer, because you yourself has answered that only SOME moslems thought that Holy Prophet’s tomb is a sacred place.

AJV, you could read my two sample of cases and you might refute what I said, if that was not correct.

In Islam and Christian, God gave free will. So your last argument seems childish. If God didn’t give free will in the first place, no man will be sinned.
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Peace be with you!

The first point was just information- since some posters had mentioned about the Kaa’ba. It was not meant to say that Muslims worshipped idols or anything.

Also, I never meant to say that Pope’s don’t sin.Of course they do. Popes are men. In the history of the papacy there have been some quite unholy characters(to put it mildly) on the Chair of Peter. Even being a Pope does not guarantee heaven- look at art from the middle ages such as a judgement scene- you’ll find many Popes are being dragged off to hell. But, God being all powerful and having promised to protect his Church from error, ensures that when a Pope intends to speak infallibly on faith and morals(which means that it will be a doctrine of the Church) he will not speak in error. As I said, the infallibilty of the Pope is not exercised with his every statement- which is a common misunderstanding of the doctrine.

Someone else is free to correct me, but in the two cases you gave above, the pope is talking about indulgences connected with carrying out a holy task (or thought to be holy) - in the first case, freeing the Holy Land, and in the second, about rebuilding the basilica of St. Peter. (The latter was abused through simony which was condemed by the Church) I don’t think you would say the Pope is acting infallillibly- he is utilizing a power granted to the Church. Infallibilty is exercised when defining a doctrine.

And support can be found from the Bible on indulgences
 
Is that still the correct position of the church? That you need to be apart of it for salvation?

Yes that is still the teaching of the Catholic church.
However, those who, with a heart AIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND DIVINE GRACE, and animated by perfect Charity from the Holy Spirit, but through NO FAULT of their own, do not realize that it is necessary to be a member of the Catholic church, may indeed be saved by the mercy of God. However, these people who have God’s sanctifying grace in their heart are said to be members of the church “in voto” rather than formally.

Love,
Jaypeeto3
 
Cath.orProtes.?:
Hi there. I understood that the Catholic Church once held the belief that you needed to be part of the church for salvation. However I thought since Vat. II that changed or something.

Is that still the correct position of the church? That you need to be apart of it for salvation?

I think that what it says in my catechism however I cannot locate it right now.

Would this be it.

All outside the Catholic Church cannot be saved.
Eugene IV, D:714

Thanks.
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Salvation is through the Church only,. Yhis teachig has not changed at all in the last 2,000 years-however that does not mean you have to be a member of the Church. Heres what the Cathecism says:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

[846](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/846.htm’)😉 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
[848](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/848.htm’)😉 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
 
TheProphet,

As has been sufficiently explained in previous posts on this thread, and the one you began on that topic, Catholics do not worship papal decrees. Catholic, like Muslims worship God alone. As we do not worship decrees it is not idolatry. If you wish to believe we do in spite of all that you have been told, than please do not be surprised or upset if someone claims Muslims are idolaters since they bow facing the Ka’bah or because they “worship” the sayings and works of the Companions or any other such nonsense.

Satire does not come easily to me, however I have attempted to use it in posts to you as you have continued to make claims with apparently no interest in any answer that does not fit your preconceptions (which could be said of most if not all of us at some point). I must admit I have had an issue with your posts since you used a work of Hollywood fiction to support your case and have attempted to link Catholicism and Nazism and accused me of killing Indians on other threads.

You and I both know neither Catholics or Muslims are idolaters and if anyone claims either religion is than the same measure should be used against their faith.
 
Peace be with you!

There are several things in this thread that are just absolutely ridiculous. The first is that Catholics are idolators. The second is that Muslims are idolators. The third is that anyone who is not Catholic is condemned to hell. The fourth is that Vatican II was not a valid Church council.
  1. Catholics are not idolators. Like Steve Ray said, in the days before Bibles were available to everyone, people used crucifixes, statues and icons to tell the stories found in the Bible. I think the Orthodox do a great job of explaining this too, how when we face and pray in front of an icon, it is used as a channel to direct and focus our prayer.
  2. Muslims don’t have idols either. The accusation that they idolize Muhammad is the same as saying that Catholics worship Mary. And we Catholics sure don’t like being accused of that…let’s not accuse others of the same thing.
  3. Vatican II taught that (by a development of doctrine) those who are not Catholics can still be saved because while their religions don’t contain the full Truth, they do contain parts of that Truth.
  4. What is your authority do determine that a council of the Catholic Church (which, by your own admission, you know nothing about) is not valid? Why do you place yourself above the sacred office that Christ himself established? Who told you that Protestants took part in the decisions of the council???
In Christ,
Rand
 
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Shenango:
Greetings George,

The Ka’bah is not an object of worship of Islam, nor does it mediate through to God or anything like that. It is just a compass…like a focal point to get all Muslims on the same page, so they can pray together without facing in all which directions. Whether there’s a cube there, or a pole or a sign or whatever or even nothing to mark the spot…the purpose is unity action.

The Ka’bah itself is actually a house of worship, just like a mosque (albeit very small). It’s actually a small mosque inside a bigger one encircling it.

The difference between Muslim and Catholic worship is that when Muslims bow and prostrate on the ground, they do it wherever they’re praying, no matter what’s in front of them, a tree, a wall etc., because the humility the bowing and prostrations represent is for God alone, and God is everywhere.

On the other hand, Catholics and Orthodox will not bow or prostrate except before a statue or icon, which does become idolatrous because one is really physically humbling himself to a man-made work, like a stone sculpture or painting.

Now, before everyone seizes on me with outrage…I can appreciate that Catholics aren’t actually worshipping the statue when they do this, but still…one can acknowledge worshipping only a certain thing in theory, but by his actions suggest that he does something else than he says.
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Orthodox do not prostrate before just any icon it is almost always the Icon of Christ, Lord, and God the other being the Holy Cross. So prostrating to God in this way is not Idolatry because we dont pray to the wood, glass, metal or paints that the Icons is made of but to the one it represents. Do you not carry pictures of your children in your wallet? How about pictures at home of the family. Although we dont pray to these photos we know that the picture itself is not the person but the what it represents. Same goes for Orthodox and Roman Catholics.
 
I respect you for being honest enough and straight to the point. My point is that you treat Pope’s call or Pope’s decree as words of God. I will take some examples to prove my case:
  1. The crusaders - how many people were mislead to go to war to get to “heaven”? There’s no such concept in your Bible.
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There’s no such concept of what in the bible? The Crusades? No there is no record of crusades in the bible? Do you mean the pope? If you would learn Catholic apologetics you would see that there is record of the pope. The first was Peter.

No, we do not treat them as the word of God. The pope is a leader of the Church, hence he has a degree of authority. If God gives them authority, then they have authority. To disobey them on matters of faith and morals is to disobey God. We accord to them the honor that God has accorded to them.

I could say that Islam worships Osama Bin Laden. When he told people to go blow up building because they would recieve 70 virgins for it they did it.
  1. The selling of purification letter came from Pope and it misled so many people to buy so their sin would be ommited.
    This only two cases shown that Pope’s decree in some cases misled you from your own teaching.
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Are you talking about indulgences? The pope never sold indulgences. It was only priests that sold indulgences. The pope is a man, he makes mistakes sometimes but this isn’t one of them.
 
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StMarkEofE:
Orthodox do not prostrate before just any icon it is almost always the Icon of Christ, Lord, and God the other being the Holy Cross. So prostrating to God in this way is not Idolatry because we dont pray to the wood, glass, metal or paints that the Icons is made of but to the one it represents. Do you not carry pictures of your children in your wallet? How about pictures at home of the family. Although we dont pray to these photos we know that the picture itself is not the person but the what it represents. Same goes for Orthodox and Roman Catholics.
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I understand what you are saying, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. Even Hindus don’t consider the idols of their gods (Krishna, Vishnu etc.) as the actual gods themselves. If that was the case there would be as many Vishnus as there are statues of that god. And clearly there is but one Vishnu.

Likewise for Catholics and Orthodox, I don’t imagine they consider the images of Mary and Jesus (PBUH) to be the actual figures themselves (and if they did that would be pretty stupid obviously). That doesn’t excuse it any more than what Hindus do.

The road to idolatry is paved with good intentions, and a whole lot of rationalization and denial. Get my drift?
 
George Waters:
Many Muslims claim Catholics are idolaters for praying while facing statues. Is this view the norm or the opinion of a minority? How does this differ from praying in front of the Ka’bah?

Peace,

George
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I don’t beleive most Catholics look at statues as dieties. I do fear that there are a few here and there. In the Islamic faith it is said that no images are to be made in image of faith objects. Catholics don’t have such a mandate, we use these image as reminders of our faith, not as dieties. Muslims pray facing toward Mecca, not any object in general. It comes down to the views of the people.
 
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Shenango:
I understand what you are saying, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. Even Hindus don’t consider the idols of their gods (Krishna, Vishnu etc.) as the actual gods themselves. If that was the case there would be as many Vishnus as there are statues of that god. And clearly there is but one Vishnu.

Likewise for Catholics and Orthodox, I don’t imagine they consider the images of Mary and Jesus (PBUH) to be the actual figures themselves (and if they did that would be pretty stupid obviously). That doesn’t excuse it any more than what Hindus do.

The road to idolatry is paved with good intentions, and a whole lot of rationalization and denial. Get my drift?
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No, I believe the saying goes: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
 
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