Idolatry?

[katewithak]

Shenango:

The road to idolatry is paved with good intentions, and a whole lot of rationalization and denial. Get my drift?

No. It would appear more likely that you are not drifting but becalmed.

 

[tonyq]

Subrosa:

Have you ever picked up a picture of say, a passed loved one (forgive me, please) and kissed it? Yes, you kiss the picture, but are you embracing the picture or the memory of your loved one?

Such it is with the statue or icon. It is the same thing. We approach the object, but embrace the memory of the person being represented by the object. The respect payed to the object thus passes through the object to the person portrayed.

All actions suggested aside, to embrace the object itself would be a total abomination and anyone who does so would be immediately repremanded. It is against ALL that Christianity believes in. I say to you that anyone who portays a christian as an idolator is a purposeful deceiver and guilty of false witnessing. That person is a liar.

I kiss the crucifix on my Rosary before I pray. Am I an idolator? I am not! It is my love for Christ which I am expressing. I care nothing for the object itself.

It is the same way when I kiss my dear deceased mother’s picture.

Excuse me, I don;t think it is exactly the same thing. For example, you might have tens of thousands, perhaps even millions of people praying to Mary, the Mother of God, at the same time. And they are all praying something different and in different languages. For example, you would have different prayers being addressed to Mary in the Czech, in the German, in the French, in the Spanish, in the Portuguese, in the Italian, in the MAndarin Chinese, in the Cantonese Chines, in the Thailand, in the Vietnamese, in the Russian, in the Ukranian, in the Polish, in the Hungarian, in the Danish, in the Finnish, in the Serbo Croat, in the Bulgarian, in the Greek languages all at the same time. Now if Mary is just a human being, how would she be able to hear all of the different thousands of prayers in so many different languages all being addressed to her at the same time? Foe example, with all due respect to your mother, I don’t see where your mother would be in this same situation as the Mother of God would be.

 

[Subrosa]

tonyq:

Excuse me, I don;t think it is exactly the same thing. For example, you might have tens of thousands, perhaps even millions of people praying to Mary, the Mother of God, at the same time. And they are all praying something different and in different languages. For example, you would have different prayers being addressed to Mary in the Czech, in the German, in the French, in the Spanish, in the Portuguese, in the Italian, in the MAndarin Chinese, in the Cantonese Chines, in the Thailand, in the Vietnamese, in the Russian, in the Ukranian, in the Polish, in the Hungarian, in the Danish, in the Finnish, in the Serbo Croat, in the Bulgarian, in the Greek languages all at the same time. Now if Mary is just a human being, how would she be able to hear all of the different thousands of prayers in so many different languages all being addressed to her at the same time? Foe example, with all due respect to your mother, I don’t see where your mother would be in this same situation as the Mother of God would be.

Hi tonyq -

The point I was trying to make is that when holy images are used, it is an expression of love and respect for the person depicted. The image itself is not the target of the prayer or other expression. You could call the image a “stand-in” in lieu of the actual person depicted.

I was not trying to compare my mother to Mary, just using her image (picture) as an example of what I meant.

As for Mary, she now exists in the spiritual realm. Time does not work the same there as it does here, so one can only surmize how all that praying to Mary works out. All I know is that she hears each and every prayer.

The peace of Christ be with you,
Subrosa

 

[tonyq]

Subrosa:

As for Mary, she now exists in the spiritual realm. Time does not work the same there as it does here, so one can only surmize how all that praying to Mary works out. All I know is that she hears each and every prayer.

Does the Mother of God have powers above that of a human being? For example, she is said to be the co-Redemptrix, and she hears, understands and acts upon thousands of prayers being addressed to her in many different languages all at the same time. Once a person is in heaven, would he have these powers and abilitities or are they reserved only for the Mother of God? If it is reserved exclusively to the Mother of God, for example, to be the co-Redemptrix, then, would a Muslim be justified in bringing up an issue of idolatry, since he would not be inclined to beleive that Mary had supernatural powers.

 

[TheRaiders]

Mary has been elevated since her death, yes but faith in Jesus comes before we have faith in Mary. For instance, Elizabeth honored Mary in the Bible, but only because she knew the Saviour was in her womb. Same with all of the Saints. We pray to them because they are in heaven. They are in heaven becasue of Jesus. If we didn’t believe in Jesus as our saviour, we would not believe the Saints had any influence whatsoever.
I agree it is a slippery slope for idol worship, but idol worship in its biblical sense is worshipping a statue that has a demon in it. The demon exercised its power through this image or statue.
Our Saints are people we know are with God. They do not reside in a statue. It is a devotional tool, and one that has been used by Holy people for close to 2000 years.
Who does idol worship you may ask? Hindus probably do. I think they call the spirit of the demons into the statues and worship them. The demons give them powers.
New age people unwittingly do, when they place any New Age objects over God. One thing none of the people except the atheists on this site can be accused of is idolitry because we are all striving to worship the same god. I think idolitry is such a big deal to ancient Jews and thus in the Bible a lot because it was a Huge problem back then for before Jesus Satan was not bound as he is today. Today, we must stop accusing each other of it. Over 2/3 of the world has been converted from idol worship. The devil has to use deception and corruption to exercise his power these days. Idol worship schmidol Schmorship. Stop talking about it! Holier men and women than thou have prayed in front of statues, or broken down in front of a Crucifix. Feel no shame any man or woman of God if you ask for help from Saints, listen to Peter’s succesor, or use objects to aid worship. It would be a sadder world without these gifts from God.
Patrick

 

[BryPGuy89]

tonyq:

Does the Mother of God have powers above that of a human being? For example, she is said to be the co-Redemptrix, and she hears, understands and acts upon thousands of prayers being addressed to her in many different languages all at the same time. Once a person is in heaven, would he have these powers and abilitities or are they reserved only for the Mother of God? If it is reserved exclusively to the Mother of God, for example, to be the co-Redemptrix, then, would a Muslim be justified in bringing up an issue of idolatry, since he would not be inclined to beleive that Mary had supernatural powers.

You definitely aren’t Catholic it seems. I can only ask who are you to question what comes after death, who knows what God will bestow upon his faithful in heaven. Mary was a faithful and devoted woman to God and his son, who knows what God has given her in paradise.

 

[Subrosa]

tonyq:

Does the Mother of God have powers above that of a human being? For example, she is said to be the co-Redemptrix, and she hears, understands and acts upon thousands of prayers being addressed to her in many different languages all at the same time. Once a person is in heaven, would he have these powers and abilitities or are they reserved only for the Mother of God? If it is reserved exclusively to the Mother of God, for example, to be the co-Redemptrix, then, would a Muslim be justified in bringing up an issue of idolatry, since he would not be inclined to beleive that Mary had supernatural powers.

The issues you raise of Mary are fodder for another thread.

Whether or not she has supernatural powers is of no consequence to our love for her, nor if we choose to produce an image that reminds us of her.

The image remains just that, an image. It is without life and is not to be venerated or worshiped. The image acts only as a reminder.

On the other hand, she has shown herself. Here is a picture of her in Zeitun, Egypt in 1968. So, apparently, ahe has some kind of supernatural powers, yes she does. Notice the spiritual dove above her head.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Another photo of the transfiguration of our Lady in Her full body
over the church named after Her in Zeitoun, Egypt. zeitun-eg.org/

Subrosa

 

[tonyq]

Subrosa:

The image remains just that, an image. It is without life and is **not to be venerated ** or worshiped. The image acts only as a reminder.

Are you sure that sacred images and icons are not to be venerated? I know that in the Eastern Catholic tradition, people generally bow down before them and kiss them? I thought you were allowed to venerate a sacred image or a blessed icon, but not to worship it.

 

[Subrosa]

tonyq:

Are you sure that sacred images and icons are not to be venerated? I know that in the Eastern Catholic tradition, people generally bow down before them and kiss them? I thought you were allowed to venerate a sacred image or a blessed icon, but not to worship it.

Again, the image is of no consequence. It is merely a material object. Kissing the image is like kissing a picture of a loved one. It is done as an expression of love or veneration of the person depicted.

In the case of a sacred icon that is blessed, the icon is venerated, however, it is the holy Spirit which is being worshiped, not the image. These icons perform miracles and are given by Mary.

stots.edu/article.php?id=34

vor.ru/English/Christian_Message/program.phtml?act=46



The Holy Mother of God of Kazan

 

[imroc]

George Waters:

Many Muslims claim Catholics are idolaters for praying while facing statues. Is this view the norm or the opinion of a minority? How does this differ from praying in front of the Ka’bah?

Peace,

George

I would think that since a statue is made of matter, created by God and that a city like Mecca is made of matter, created by God that there wouldn’t be much difference at to what one is facing. Just my opinion, and I really don’t know what the muslim view is…

 

[BryPGuy89]

imroc:

I would think that since a statue is made of matter, created by God and that a city like Mecca is made of matter, created by God that there wouldn’t be much difference at to what one is facing. Just my opinion, and I really don’t know what the muslim view is…

Well why do many Catholics visit site of saints and relics if they are just matter and are no different. Mecca is the place of the begining of the true faith…etc, according to them.

 

[exoflare]

BryPGuy89:

Well why do many Catholics visit site of saints and relics if they are just matter and are no different. Mecca is the place of the begining of the true faith…etc, according to them.

The same people reason people visit any other tourist site. I would like to go see Mount Rushmore someday, but rest assured I do NOT worship George Washington, Abe Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, and no not even Theodore Roosevelt!

 

[imroc]

BryPGuy89:

Well why do many Catholics visit site of saints and relics if they are just matter and are no different. Mecca is the place of the begining of the true faith…etc, according to them.

Would you visit Jerusalem? It’s just made of matter. Have you ever visited a gravesite or stayed behind when the burial was over? I’m not sure what your trying to say. Heck, have you ever read the pages of the Bible? Visiting ALL of them and reading can be enlightening, reminiscent, encouraging, thanksgiving, sorrowful, etc.

 

[BryPGuy89]

exoflare:

The same people reason people visit any other tourist site. I would like to go see Mount Rushmore someday, but rest assured I do NOT worship George Washington, Abe Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, and no not even Theodore Roosevelt!

It isn’t a matter of worship, but peole want to get close to the untangeable God, so you go to places were God worked mariacles through people and places. God bestowed special gifts to these things and who wouldn’t want to be around places were God has shared a vision of the right path to live. It is humblying to me at least, to hear the stories of the saints and the history of some places. They have the affect beyond what normal matter has, I often over look the rock under my foot or the single tree in the forest.

 

[BryPGuy89]

imroc:

Would you visit Jerusalem? It’s just made of matter. Have you ever visited a gravesite or stayed behind when the burial was over? I’m not sure what your trying to say. Heck, have you ever read the pages of the Bible? Visiting ALL of them and reading can be enlightening, reminiscent, encouraging, thanksgiving, sorrowful, etc.

But do these bring a feeling of faith and hope, or humble your proud self? Jerusalem can change a mans life, it reminds of of our savior and his life given for us, it reinforces our faith. Matter is a very broad statement, there are many forms of matter, they all have their own chariteristics and properties.

 

[Subrosa]

BryPGuy89:

Well why do many Catholics visit site of saints and relics if they are just matter and are no different. Mecca is the place of the begining of the true faith…etc, according to them.

Is there something wrong with religious pilgrimages? Christian people and places that have experienced God, or Mary for that matter, are now people and places of inspiration, just as Jerusalem, Lumbini and Mecca.

Subrosa

 

[BryPGuy89]

Subrosa:

Is there something wrong with religious pilgrimages? Christian people and places that have experienced God, or Mary for that matter, are now people and places of inspiration, just as Jerusalem, Lumbini and Mecca.

Subrosa

Oh no, you miss interpret what I say, you should read some of the most recent postings, i talked about them and not negatively.

 

[happygal]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!

There are several things in this thread that are just absolutely ridiculous. The first is that Catholics are idolators. The second is that Muslims are idolators. The third is that anyone who is not Catholic is condemned to hell. The fourth is that Vatican II was not a valid Church council.

1. Catholics are not idolators. Like Steve Ray said, in the days before Bibles were available to everyone, people used crucifixes, statues and icons to tell the stories found in the Bible. I think the Orthodox do a great job of explaining this too, how when we face and pray in front of an icon, it is used as a channel to direct and focus our prayer.

→ I really do not understand this since we have one commandment that say we shall not make for yrself a craved image, because i come from a family of taoisium which practise the same thing as catholic does, having a image to pray as a channel. Then meaning taoisium , buddhist, Islam and even catholic are the same!!! Please enlighten!!!

1. Muslims don’t have idols either. The accusation that they idolize Muhammad is the same as saying that Catholics worship Mary. And we Catholics sure don’t like being accused of that…let’s not accuse others of the same thing.
2. Vatican II taught that (by a development of doctrine) those who are not Catholics can still be saved because while their religions don’t contain the full Truth, they do contain parts of that Truth.
3. What is your authority do determine that a council of the Catholic Church (which, by your own admission, you know nothing about) is not valid? Why do you place yourself above the sacred office that Christ himself established? Who told you that Protestants took part in the decisions of the council???

In Christ,
Rand