Idols

[zach_dunn]

Hi,
I need some help, I’m talking to a protestant freind and he says that it goes against the Bible to have statues of Jesus and saints in church and in our homes. He uses these verses to support his position:

 Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

 Deuteronomy 29:17 " and ye have seen their detestable things, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were with them"

What can I say to him? I’ve never had this come up in a discussion before.

 

[Robbinson]

Hi,
I need some help, I’m talking to a protestant freind and he says that it goes against the Bible to have statues of Jesus and saints in church and in our homes. He uses these verses to support his position:

 Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

 Deuteronomy 29:17 " and ye have seen their detestable things, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were with them"

What can I say to him? I’ve never had this come up in a discussion before.

That those scripture verses are prohibitions against worshiping idols, not creating images of heavenly things that remind us of Christ or that we use as a form of venaration (not worship). You can point out to your friend that the Ark of the Covenant (the most Holy thing in the Old Testatment) included two cherbim on its mercy seat (images of beings in heaven) and that Moses, at God’s instruction, created a pole in the form of a serpant for the Jews to look at in the wilderness as a sign of faith in God that would prevent them being killed by snakes; and the fact that the tabernacle in the old testatment included patterns of angelic beings. Clearly, merely creating the image is not prohibited (as these are example ordained/instructed by God), but the prohibition is on worshipping anyone or anything other than God.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[irishluck09]

It is significant that your friend’s verses are taken from the Old Testament. The New Testament is of course written after the Incarnation and it is this event that is crucial relative to your question (and our salvation ). In clothing himself with flesh, the Logos united his divinity with human nature (John, chapter 1). That is, God became human. A human body that was as physical as physical can be. Colossians 1.15 says that Christ is the “image of the invisible God.” The Greek word translated “image” here is actually eikon. As you may know, icons are symbols and signs of Holy figures venerated in the Eastern Churches. The logic at work in icons is not entirely different than the crosses and emblems we put up in our homes and parishes. Icon veneration was formally validated by the Church in the eighth Ecumenical Council at Nicea (797AD, maybe), but had been a part of Christian piety for quite a long time before that. Of course, your friend may not be all that impressed by the decisions of Ecumenical Councils, but it was the authority of the councils that gave him the Bible he is quoting to you.
The real difference between Protestants and Catholics on this point is often cultural. As in Islam, Protestants can approach God as super-transcendent in such a way that makes any mediatorial access to God seem illegitimate (this is why your Protestant friend probably would not be down with the veneration of Mary and Saints either, I’m guessing). We see these objects as mediating the blessings of Priests and creating sacred space, but often they cannot appreciate that. What I mean in saying that it is a cultural difference is that it’s probably not something he/she will be able to change their mind about. I would stick to patiently (and in LOVE) pointing out that any talk about the Bible is talk about a group of documents written by the Church, within the Church, for the Church, and not finally selected as Canon by the Church until the fourth and fifth centuries (by which time a whole lot of stuff was going on that would freak your Protestant friend out, Bishops, Popes, you name it).

 

[zach_dunn]

I don’t know where he gets this information but now he’s saying that we do in fact worship idols because there are kneelers before every statue in a Catholic Church? I guess he doesn’t understand the concept of veneration, he has told me that veneration and worship are the same thing. in the conversation we were using the word adore but adoring and veneration are the same thing right?

Can anyone tell me what the word hyperduliah means? cause he used it when we were talking about the adoration of Mary, I’ve never heard of it and I don’t know if it’s even a word.

 

[Robbinson]

I don’t know where he gets this information but now he’s saying that we do in fact worship idols because there are kneelers before every statue in a Catholic Church? I guess he doesn’t understand the concept of veneration, he has told me that veneration and worship are the same thing. in the conversation we were using the word adore but adoring and veneration are the same thing right?

Can anyone tell me what the word hyperduliah means? cause he used it when we were talking about the adoration of Mary, I’ve never heard of it and I don’t know if it’s even a word.

Hi Zach

As to veneration - think of it this way. We are commanded to honor or mother and father. And I love and honor my mother and I keep pictures of her on my desk and when I see them, I think of her. That is veneration - not worship. My personal view is that we should not kneel and pray to statutes of Mary or other saints, but can look upon them and think of them and pray to them to pray or intercede for us.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[cascherman]

tell him if it is wrong to have images of people who are important to you in your home, then he can have no pictures of his children, wives, aunts, uncles, grandparents.

 

[patrick457]

Hi,
I need some help, I’m talking to a protestant freind and he says that it goes against the Bible to have statues of Jesus and saints in church and in our homes. He uses these verses to support his position:

 Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

 Deuteronomy 29:17 " and ye have seen their detestable things, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were with them"

What can I say to him? I’ve never had this come up in a discussion before.

Ask him to read St. John of Damascus:

Worship is the symbol of veneration and of honour. Let us understand that there are different degrees of worship. First of all the worship of latreia, which we show to God, who alone by nature is worthy of worship. When, for the sake of God who is worshipful by nature, we honour His saints and servants, as Josue and Daniel worshipped an angel, and David His holy places, when be says, “Let us go to the place where His feet have stood (Ps. 132:7).” Again, in His tabernacles, as when all the people of Israel adored in the tent, and standing round the temple in Jerusalem, fixing their gaze upon it from all sides, and worshipping from that day to this, or in the rulers established by Him, as Jacob rendered homage to Esau, his elder brother, (Gen. 33:3) and to Pharaoh, the divinely established ruler (Gen. 47:7). Joseph was worshipped by his brothers (Gen. 50:18). I am aware that worship was based on honour, as in the case of Abraham and the sons of Emmor (Gen. 23:7). Either, then, do away with worship, or receive it altogether according to its proper measure.

Answer me this question: Is there only one God? You answer, “Yes, there is only one Law-giver.” Why, then, does He command contrary things? The cherubim are not outside of creation; why, then, does He allow cherubim carved by the hand of man to overshadow the mercy-seat? Is it not evident that as it is impossible to make an image of God, who is uncircumscribed and impassible, or of one like to God, creation should not be worshipped as God. He allows the image of the cherubim who are circumscribed, and prostrate in adoration before the divine throne, to be made, and thus prostrate to overshadow the mercy-seat. It was fitting that the image of the heavenly choirs should overshadow the divine mysteries. Would you say that the ark and staff and mercy-seat were not made? Are they not produced by the hand of man? Are they not due to what you call contemptible matter? What was the tabernacle itself? Was it not an image? Was it not a type and a figure? Hence the holy Apostle’s words concerning the observances of the law, “Who serve unto the example and shadow, of heavenly things.” As it was answered to Moses, when he was to finish the tabernacle: “See” (He says), “that thou make all things according to the pattern which was shown thee on the Mount (Heb. 8:5; Ex. 25:40).” But the law was not an image. It shrouded the image. In the words of the same Apostle, “the law contains the shadow of the goods to come, not the image of those things (Heb. 10:1).” For if the law should forbid images, and yet be itself a forerunner of images, what should we say? If the tabernacle was a figure, and the type of a type, why does the law not prohibit image-making? But this is not in the least the case. There is a time for everything (Eccl. 3:1).

 

[Church_Militant]

Hi,
I need some help, I’m talking to a protestant freind and he says that it goes against the Bible to have statues of Jesus and saints in church and in our homes. He uses these verses to support his position:

 Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

 Deuteronomy 29:17 " and ye have seen their detestable things, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were with them"

What can I say to him? I’ve never had this come up in a discussion before.

I have, several times, so I turned my posts into an article on my Catholic blog. Hopefully it will help.
Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

 

[puzzleannie]

Hi,
I need some help, I’m talking to a protestant freind and he says that it goes against the Bible to have statues of Jesus and saints in church and in our homes. He uses these verses to support his position:

Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”

Deuteronomy 29:17 " and ye have seen their detestable things, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were with them"

What can I say to him? I’ve never had this come up in a discussion before.

do you really think those pagans described in these OT verses had statues of Jesus and the saints in their homes? the verse condemns worship of idols. Jesus is not an idol, nor is an image of him worshipped, He alone is worshipped. Catholics do not worship saints, even if they have their pictures or statues in their homes and churches. Catholics honor saints as good Christian witnesses. Neither do Catholics worship their parents, past presidents, or anyone else whose image or picture is in their home or in a public place.

a person who genuinely believes this verse condemns possession of any image or representation of a human being must naturally destroy all images and photos of their own parents and relatives, and tear down all the Andrew Jackson and George Washington statues from our public squares.

 

[twb1621]

Hi,
I need some help, I’m talking to a protestant freind and he says that it goes against the Bible to have statues of Jesus and saints in church and in our homes. He uses these verses to support his position:

 Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

 Deuteronomy 29:17 " and ye have seen their detestable things, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were with them"

What can I say to him? I’ve never had this come up in a discussion before.

Ask your friend if he has any photographs, sketches or images or likenesses of any family or friends, pets or vacation photos. The idols in the Bible are just that, idols. We do not idolize statues. They are nothing more than images that have ***no different significance ***than photos or paintings or drawings of any other love one a person may have. Explain that if a mother or loved one who has lost someone reflects on a photo or likeness or even places a kiss on the likeness, does that constitute this likeness is now idolized or loved in place of that person? of course not. These verses pertain to IDOLS. And according to these verses to be used this way it would include ALL forms of images which would mean the entire world is condemned with all the photos and images there are out there. A little common sense must be used and this opposition has been long worn out by those who do not possess or understand the proper interpretation of Bible which in fact came about when individuals seperated from the Church to form their own “Christian” Faiths, now 60,000 and counting and every one claiming to have the True faith.

 

[chosen_people]

Ask your friend if he has any photographs, sketches or images or likenesses of any family or friends, pets or vacation photos. The idols in the Bible are just that, idols. We do not idolize statues. They are nothing more than images that have ***no different significance ***than photos or paintings or drawings of any other love one a person may have. Explain that if a mother or loved one who has lost someone reflects on a photo or likeness or even places a kiss on the likeness, does that constitute this likeness is now idolized or loved in place of that person? of course not. These verses pertain to IDOLS. And according to these verses to be used this way it would include ALL forms of images which would mean the entire world is condemned with all the photos and images there are out there. A little common sense must be used and this opposition has been long worn out by those who do not possess or understand the proper interpretation of Bible which in fact came about when individuals seperated from the Church to form their own “Christian” Faiths, now 60,000 and counting and every one claiming to have the True faith.

Well if I attributed that the loved one in the photo was divine, placed the photo in a house of worship and kneeled down to it then you would be correct in your claim that there is no significant difference.

 

[twb1621]

Well if I attributed that the loved one in the photo was divine, There is only one Divine, God. Are all that you have photos or images of divine or are they usually of someone you love and hold dear to you? placed the photo in a house of worship and kneeled down to it Actually, if you want to learn something about Catholics, We kneel down to the presence of our Lord in the TABERNACLE. defined, A cupboard or boxlike receptacle for the exclusive reservation of the Blessed Sacrament. In early Christian times the sacred species was reserved in the home because of possible persecution. Later dove-shaped tabernacles were suspended by chains before the altar. Nowadays tabernacles may be round or rectangular and made of wood, stone, or metal. They are covered with a veil and lined with precious metal or silk, with a corporal beneath the ciboria or other sacred vessels. According to the directive of the Holy See, since the Second Vatican Council, tabernacles are always solid and inviolable and located in the middle of the main altar or on a side altar, but always in a truly prominent place. By the way, this dates back into the OT so you might not want to argue that one.then you would be correct in your claim that there is no significant difference. Thank you for your acknowledgment. It is a display of a lack of knowledge of scripture to insist Catholics worship idols. They (images) are as much idolized as any image of your spouse or child or whomever by you. That is fact based on one who knows and practices devotedly the faith, which you do not know let alone practice. If you can’t accept that, it is unfortunate but for you to deal with but I would tend to believe you are mature enough to understand and recognize the difference… although I am a bit surprised that a Jewish person would have difficulty with understanding this. I have known many Jews who had no difficulty with this at all. :

 

[tobinatorstark]

Hi,
I need some help, I’m talking to a protestant freind and he says that it goes against the Bible to have statues of Jesus and saints in church and in our homes. He uses these verses to support his position:

 Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

 Deuteronomy 29:17 " and ye have seen their detestable things, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were with them"

What can I say to him? I’ve never had this come up in a discussion before.

I had faced the same with my non-Catholic Aunt and Uncle. I too was looking for an answer

 

[twb1621]

Well if I attributed that the loved one in the photo was divine, placed the photo in a house of worship and kneeled down to it then you would be correct in your claim that there is no significant difference.

.
The technical response for those who might need this…
God prohibits in the Ten Commandments the making of idols and the worshipping of them: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them…for I the Lord your God am a jealous God” (Exod. 20:4-5). At first instance it would appear that this commandment imposes an absolute prohibition against the making and use of all images per se. However, a thorough examination of the Old Testament precludes such an interpretation, as this would necessitate God prohibiting what He allows and commands elsewhere, especially concerning the Temple of Jerusalem itself. It follows that if the Commandments prohibited the making of any images whatsoever, Protestants ought to remove and destroy all their statues of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and even Mount Rushmore, as well as burning all their pictures of relatives and friends. Common sense though tells us that such would be an absurd outcome. The Catholic doctrine on the veneration of images was fully outlined by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 AD: “Proceeding as it were on the royal road and following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers, and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition is of the Holy Spirit which dwells in the Church), we define with all care and exactitude, that the venerable and holy images are set up in just the same way as the figure of the precious and life-giving cross; painted images, and those in mosaic and those of other suitable materials, in the holy churches of God, on holy vessels and vestments, on walls and in pictures, in houses and by the roadsides; images of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ and of our undefiled Lady, the holy God-bearer, and of the honorable angels, and of saintly and holy men. For the more frequently these are observed by means of such representations, so much the more will the beholders be aroused to recollect the originals and to long after them, and to pay the images the tribute of an embrace and a reverence of honor, not to pay to them the actual worship which is according to our faith, and which is proper only to the divine nature: but as to the figure of the venerable and life-giving cross, and to the holy Gospels and the other sacred monuments, so to those images to accord the honor of incense and oblation of lights, as it has been the pious custom of antiquity. For the honor paid to the image passes to its original, and he that honors an image honors in it the person depicted thereby.” The real purpose of the commandment is to steer the people of God away from idolatry, that is, the worship of any false god. Consider the following passages: “For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire” (Deut. 7:4-5). “And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; they set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree; and there they burned incense on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, ‘You shall not do this’” (2 Kgs. 17:9-12). God obviously abhors idolatry; however, in the same Scriptures we see the Jews making statues for legitimate religious purposes, and under God’s command: “And the Lord said to Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8-9).

 

[Ruthie]

*Latria *is the worship we give to God alone. *Dulia *is the veneration we give the Saints. *Hyperdulia *is the veneration we give Mary; we hold her above the Saints - but below God. For more, see this.

Others have explained about idols and images not being the same thing, and the OT not prohibiting images, so I won’t go over that again.

Part of this is a language problem. In English, the meaning of words tends to change, and gt watered down, over time. A good example is “awesome,” which used to mean “worthy of awe,” but now just means cool, which is another changed word.

“Worship” no longer means something we offer only to God. Neither does “adoration.” I can say I “adore” my husband, and “worship the ground he walks on,” without meaning that he is my God.

But these changed and watered-down meanings are not what those sections of Exodus and Deuteronomy mean. They mean treating physical objects as gods.

Kneeling, praying before a statue of Mary, may look like latria, but it isn’t. She is not God, and we know it. If we didn’t know it, we’d include her in the Trinity. (What would we call it - the Quantity? )

I like the images of Jesus, Mary, the H.S. as a dove, and the Saints in my Church. Everywhere I turn, there they are, reminding me to focus on God.

I do not think the Crucifix I wear around my neck is Jesus. But it reminds me of what He did for me. I do not think that asking Mary to pray for me is praying to her as if she were God. It is asking her to pray for me, just like I have asked friends to pray for me.

Speaking of words changing meaning, I could indeed pray to her; just like I could say to my husband, “I pray thee, bring me a glass of water.”

We Catholics are good at holding on to the old meanings of words. Look at “charity” for an example!

I hope this has given you some ideas.

God bless us all,

Ruthie

 

[AAC08]

but then, why do catholics bow down at the image, I know you will make an example on the bowing gestures of the people of different cultures, but that is not the case, I want a clear reason why you bow down to those images? is there any historical and biblical evidences of it?

 

[davidv]

but then, why do catholics bow down at the image, I know you will make an example on the bowing gestures of the people of different cultures, but that is not the case, I want a clear reason why you bow down to those images? is there any historical and biblical evidences of it?

Because it is an appropriate sign of reverence to the one the image represents.

 

[Mattjolley]

Hi,
I need some help, I’m talking to a protestant freind and he says that it goes against the Bible to have statues of Jesus and saints in church and in our homes. He uses these verses to support his position:

 Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

 Deuteronomy 29:17 " and ye have seen their detestable things, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were with them"

What can I say to him? I’ve never had this come up in a discussion before.

Ask him this; When he looks at a photo of a relative, does he talk to the photo or pick up the phone and speak to the actual relative? In the same way a statue reminds us who we’re talking to in our prayers and helps focus our minds, and also helps us to think fondly/lovingly of the person we are praying to just as a photo does the same with chatting to/thinking of a relative. Hope this makes sense!

Matt

 

[Ruthie]

AAC asked,

I want a clear reason why you bow down to those images? is there any historical and biblical evidences of it?

Well, I’m a bit fuzzy on the history part. But I can tell you that we bow down in front of the images, not *to *them. We bow down to the person represented in the image - usually Jesus or Mary. To Jesus because He is God (latria), and to Mary because she is His mother (hyperdulia).

I haven’t seen anyone bowing to a saint, but I’ve only been Catholic 2 1/2 years.

As far as biblical reference, there’s “Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, ****that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, ****and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Phil 2:9-11 (RSV) Emphasis mine. A name is only a symbol, isn’t it? That’s the best I can do tonight; I’m tired. But I’m sure there’s something in Leviticus or Deuteronomy about proper reverence to the Ark.

Oh, and if you’re thinking about genuflecting, the bow/kneeling before we enter the pew, that is directed to the Real Presence of Jesus in the Tabernacle, not to an image.

Hope this helps, and that I didn’t come across as grumpy. I am grumpy, but not at you!

God bless us all,

Ruthie

 

[e61iuser]

True story:

My friend and his wife were killed while they were coming from a bank by robbers on motorcycles.

They left behind a one year old daughter who got taken care of by my friend’s brother. Her name is Erin.

Every year we have a small gathering on the day of their wedding (when we as their friends all got together and saw them unified as one person) and try to remember the happy times we had with them as well as keep them in our hearts despite their having gone on to God. We bring out their wedding pictures and two large ones in particular of my friend and his wife as representations of their being with us.

This year we brought Erin (who had grown up a bit already) with us and during the celebration we asked her to sing for her Mama and Daddy. We hadn’t brought out the large pictures into the living room by then yet. Erin said “but Mommy and Daddy aren’t here yet”.

So we had the large pictures brought out and placed in seats in the center of the room. Before Erin sang, she walked up to the pictures and kissed both of them one after the other, saying “I love you Mommy”, and “I love you Daddy”. Then she sang with all the love in her heart for her parents and their memory.

Now tell me that Erin was giving her love to the pictures and not her parents. Tell me that we were only celebrating the creation of the pictures and not with the creation of the pictures, the union of my two friends who have gone on.

This is how Catholics are. And if non-Catholics can’t understand that, it’s not our problem.