Idols

[valient_Lucy]

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8 KJV)

The day my wife starts falling before a man that resembles me is the day I get jealous - no matter what her explanation.

So if you found out that during work, your wife would look at a picture of you and think about you, you would be jealous?

 

[valient_Lucy]

But how can an image remind you of the lives they lived? If I want inspiration I’ll, for example, read the Sermon on the Mount. Looking at an image of a man who might bear some resemblance to Jesus doesn’t help me in any way. The Jews don’t need idols and statues to “remind” them of the great men and women of the Old Testament. Even the Muslims don’t need any images to inspire them. Why do Catholics? Anyway, if the Bible doesn’t teach and inspire you to “walk in the ways of the Lord”, no statue will.

Maria: Notice that the person speaking in that passage is a Syrian pagan, and even he knows that bowing down to an idol is wrong and asks forgiveness. Why don’t the Catholics?

I certainly hope you don’t own a camera, or have any pictures of your family members.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Anyway…are your statues/images necessary?

No. We can pray to God without images. We can pray to God in the local Crazy Horse Strip Bar. But if you bought a former strip club to turn it into a church, would you keep it exactly the same or would you redecorate it? If you would redecorate it, why if images and external atmosphere don’t mean anything?

 

[valient_Lucy]

Well i don’t think this thread is going to go anywhere.

As I said in my first post, Paul describes Greek statues as idols. I don’t see any difference between them and a Catholic statue of, for example, the Virgin. Neither are gods and neither is an image of a god. They are, as David puts it more poetically…“silver and gold, made by the hands of men.They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see;they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell;they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk;nor can they utter a sound with their throats.Those who make them will be like them,and so will all who trust in them.” Psalm 115

Amen!!!

The ancient Greeks did believe that Zeus, Poseidon, and the other gods in the pantheon were actually gods. Catholics do not believe that Mary and the Saints are gods.

Does the United States worship George Washington or Abraham Lincoln? We have a gigantic idol of Abraham Lincoln in Washington DC.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Why is the 2nd commandment missing in some places in the Catholic arena?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:3-5 KJV)

Are you demanding the destruction of the Lincoln Memorial? That is indeed a “graven image” and it is in the likeness of something that is in heaven or on earth. And for that matter, did you allow your children to play with stuffed animals, those cuddly idols? They are also images of something that lives on the earth. Are your poor children arousing the wrath of God by hugging their teddy bear?

 

[ElizabethPH]

God Bless but I am not anti Catholic my husband was an alter boy all his life, we went to the same church. His mother was the organist who served more than one mass a day. My mother was a singer solo. The priest and parish loved her voice, her Ava Marie made you cry. She always sang solo at mid-night mass. Or any mass.
My grandfather always sat in the first row until his death even crawled in so please do not call me anything but Catholic.

God Bless love you all … VERY.litttle child of God

God Bless

God Bless

Dear planter I’m sorry that by my posting that part of the article about the Church and idolatry made you think in any way I thought you were being anti-Catholic. I just sort of understand that you were confused about it and I was hoping that piece might have helped you become less confused. At least help you understand what the Church teaches on this whole thing. That part at the end was just referring to those that might have anti-Catholic persuasions but not you specifically.

Peace

 

[valient_Lucy]

Elizabeth. My whole intention in starting this thread wasn’t to make any claims. I simply asked why Catholics “adore” or “venerate” images. The only reply i’ve had is that it helps or inspires people in some way. I personally find this hard to believe because a block of marble or stone doesn’t have any of those effects on me.

So just because you don’t get any benefit out of something means that no one should be able to get any benefit out of something?

And, lest we repeat ourselves, Catholics don’t worship images.

William Churchill was a great man

You mean Winston Churchill.

but I’d be abhorred if i saw someone prostrating themselves in front of a statue of him. Same with the a statue of Mary or the Saints… We’ll all just have to disagree on this, i think.

The fact that you’re describing people regularly prostrating themselves before an image of Mary or a Saint shows me that you’ve never actually been to a Catholic Church. Talk to me again after you’ve actually stepped foot inside the door.

 

[planter654]

That was my mistake. I first thought it was Mark but then I checked and realized that it was Luke. So I changed it but it was already quoted before I manged to save the changes. As I said, it’s only a legend (and I don’t know if there is any recent scientific finding to confirm or reject this hypothesis) but I think that if would be great if it was true.

Anyways, God bless!

Yes, it would be great, because Luke did not know Jesus when he was a child, nor Mary, she was very young when she gave birth to Christ. And there is never any mention of Apostles paintings or drawing, is there? Luke did not know Jesus till Jesus started his ministry. Was Jesus not 30 years old, when Jesus chose Luke around in there some where.Crucified at 33 not sure about that either, do you know?

God bless some strange reason could not sleep.

 

[Church_Militant]

Yes, it would be great, because Luke did not know Jesus when he was a child, nor Mary, she was very young when she gave birth to Christ. And there is never any mention of Apostles paintings or drawing, is there? Luke did not know Jesus till Jesus started his ministry. Was Jesus not 30 years old, when Jesus chose Luke around in there some where.Crucified at 33 not sure about that either, do you know?

God bless some strange reason could not sleep.

I don’t think we have any record of the Lord actually choosing St. Luke. In fact…Luke is called the Evangelist because he never really was an apostle like Peter or Paul. See… Luke apparently ran around with Peter and then Paul (hence his gospel and Acts) Mark also was not an apostle…supposedly ran around with Peter too.

Of the original 12 apostles only John, Matthew, James, Peter, and Jude actually wrote any of the New Testament. The authorship of Hebrews is often attributed to St. Paul, but if your read it over…the style is nothing like his, so the scholars have some question. Not about inspiration, the church settled that long ago, just authorship.

 

[guanophore]

Well i don’t think this thread is going to go anywhere.

As I said in my first post, Paul describes Greek statues as idols. I don’t see any difference between them and a Catholic statue of, for example, the Virgin./quote]

The statues Paul was talking about represented gods that the Greeks worshipped. The statues Catholics have represent events in the life of Christ, or His disciples. We don’t worship the followers of Jesus, that is why they are not idols. We may consider them saints (good role models) but they are not gods.
clarktaylor;3115956:

Neither are gods and neither is an image of a god. They are, as David puts it more poetically…“silver and gold, made by the hands of men.They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see;they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell;they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk;nor can they utter a sound with their throats.Those who make them will be like them,and so will all who trust in them.” Psalm 115

Amen!!!

Catholics don’t put “trust” in statues, icons, stained glass windows, or any material objects. We trust in Christ our Saviour.

 

[Stephen_C]

The fact that you’re describing people regularly prostrating themselves before an image of Mary or a Saint shows me that you’ve never actually been to a Catholic Church. Talk to me again after you’ve actually stepped foot inside the door.

Nope I don’t think he has. I try to arrive at Church about 20 or so min before Mass. When I enter, I dip my right fingers in holy water (this is a reminder of our baptism) and make the sign of the cross. I then proceed to the pew. Before I enter the pew, I genuflex towards the tabernacle. (showing reverence to Jesus) After that, I enter my pew, kick down the kneeler, and spend the next 10 minutes or so praying. I then take my seat and watch others do the same. I don’t recall ever seeing anyone prostrating themselves before an image of Mary or a Saint before, during, or after Mass. Since I do not have a home Church, I have been to Mass at a lot of Churches here in the DFW erea.

 

[guanophore]

Why do you call me a bigot because I don’t like to see people adoring or venerating (or just plain worshipping) statues? Are the Jews “anti-Catholic bigots” because they ban images? Are the Muslims? Are the… Protestants? I don’t think so. Why do you think all these different groups abhor religious icons but the Catholics don’t?

They don’t understand the gospel?

Titus 1:14-16
15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed.

 

[Stephen_C]

Nope I don’t think he has. I try to arrive at Church about 20 or so min before Mass. When I enter, I dip my right fingers in holy water (this is a reminder of our baptism) and make the sign of the cross. I then proceed to the pew. Before I enter the pew, I genuflex towards the tabernacle. (showing reverence to Jesus) After that, I enter my pew, kick down the kneeler, and spend the next 10 minutes or so praying. I then take my seat and watch others do the same. I don’t recall ever seeing anyone prostrating themselves before an image of Mary or a Saint before, during, or after Mass. Since I do not have a home Church, I have been to Mass at a lot of Churches here in the DFW erea.

Oh yes one more thing…I do Pray directly to Jesus. Also have few prayer partners in high places… Mary and all the other Saints.

 

[guanophore]

Church Militant;3116721:

I don’t know where you come from with all this, but you sound more protestant than Catholic.

I am on topic, it is about Idols.

Images ok lets talk images my friend!

Why are there ONLY A “WHITE IMAGES IN THE CATHOLIC” CHURCH, AND YES I AM CATHOLIC BUT LATELY I WOULD LIKE TO RATHER CALL MYSELF… A LITTLE CHILD OF GOD.

I ask you why A white God "all WHITE images, all WHITE STATUES, ALL WHITE PAINTINGS, ALL WHITE GOD I am white, but did God not create Black children, Mexican children, AFRICAN children etc etc.?

God Bless I serve him first…a little child of God

I know! That bugs me too. I couldn’t even find any culturally appropriate xmas cards. All the Holy Family’s look European, blond hair, blue eyes.

 

[guanophore]

Are you an official spokesperson for all the RC’s on this forum??

He is not “official” but he will do just fine until someone gets appointed.

 

[guanophore]

Yes,I am Catholic and I find with in my family of Catholics they do not like the topic of idols. It is not a ridiculous posts considering idols we are told, we are forbidden to crave, make as it is written in the bible. It is a serious matter at least for me for I look at it as a sin. The topic is about idols, if I disagree what is an idol then they call me a Protestant and they bash me. Very confusing to me as a Catholic, a child of God to hear this.

God Bless

If you are offended by carvings, statues or pictures, then I suggest you not make any, or use any. You should do what brings you closest to Jesus. If looking at the nativity scene does not inspire you, don’t put one up!

 

[Zooey]

As I said in my first post, Paul describes Greek statues as idols. I don’t see any difference between them and a Catholic statue of, for example, the Virgin.

Maybe the problem is in the eye of the beholder??
Because I see a big, big difference between a picture or statue of the Virgin Mary, and one of, say, Hecate…But then, my mama was a Latin teacher, so I know a little bit about the ancients, & their religious beliefs.
Trust me, there is no comparison. A portrait of Jesus’ beloved mother shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same sentence as the Graeco-Roman “gods”.
Slitting the throats of:crying: newborn black puppies by moonlight, & pouring the blood out at the four corners?? Pulling the innards out of a still-living chicken, and throwing them across the kitchen floor, to stare at until you “see something”?? Now those are idolatry!!
That kind of thing has absolutely NOTHING to do with statues/ikons of saints.
Sometimes I think we have sanitized the stories of our ancestors so much, that we have no idea what they were really like any more. The result is a total & complete misunderstanding of what the pagans actually believed & practiced. (I will spare you:bigyikes: uch: stories of my Irish/Welsh forebears; some of you might have weak nervous systems; suffice it to say, that Caesar’s army ran from us in sheer terror…).

 

[guanophore]

Is there no inspired info from the pope as to what color mary is??

I agree, you don’t sound very Catholic to me! Mary was descended from the line of David, a Jewess, and her complection was similar to that of a modern day Palestinian.

 

[Church_Militant]

I agree, you don’t sound very Catholic to me!

Mary was descended from the line of David, a Jewess, and her complexion was similar to that of a modern day Palestinian.Don’t be confused here. Planter was the one that I mistakenly questioned as to her Catholicity, not Asa, whose profile reads, “Religion: Follower of Jesus Christ”.

I better understand Planter now and have apologized to her privately for upsetting her, but Asa is another matter.

As for the ethnicity of Our Lord and the Blessed Virgin in portrayals, I agree that factually they need to look like any Middle Eastern Jews, but also that just about every culture portrays them to be like themselves.

All of which is really pretty much irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Yes, it would be great, because Luke did not know Jesus when he was a child, nor Mary, she was very young when she gave birth to Christ. And there is never any mention of Apostles paintings or drawing, is there? Luke did not know Jesus till Jesus started his ministry. Was Jesus not 30 years old, when Jesus chose Luke around in there some where.Crucified at 33 not sure about that either, do you know?

God bless some strange reason could not sleep.

Icons aren’t painted so we know how the people depicted on it looked like. Even protestants use the cross yet the cross they use doesn’t really look like the crosses Romans used. It’s not about painting the phisical but rather the spiritual reality. Of course the images do depict some physical reality, but that’s not their purpose.