Idols

[clarktaylor]

Although I’m not going to go on a long tirade about how the Roman Catholics practice Idolatry - only because I know the replies I’ll get - I still want to bring up the subject of idols which (although I am a Protestant) is the only aspect of Roman Catholicism that seriously upsets me.

What I wanted to ask was, if you have statues of Mary, Christ, the saints etc either in your home or local Church, do you consider them “idols”? I only ask this because I was thinking about the account told in Acts of Paul’s arrival in Athens and that “he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.” (Acts 17;16) Now, the Greeks didn’t consider their statues to be gods, neither do the Catholics. So what’s the difference between Greek idols and Catholic ones?

“Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.” -Ezekiel 14:6

Second question. Why do people kneel down in front of these statues? Why do they kiss them? In short, what is the point of them? I know Catholics like to replace the word “worship” for “adoration” or “veneration” but why adore an image? I know that Catholics also say that the veneration shown to an image is somehow magically transmitted to the subject of the image. What is the basis for this assumption? It seems like mysticism to me.

I’d just like to add something I read from Tertullian. The Romanists seem to put a lot of stock in what the Church Fathers said so here goes: “The principal crime of the human race, the highest guilt charged upon the world, the whole procuring cause of judgment – is idolatry. God prohibits an idol as much to be made as to be worshipped.” (Tertullian, ANF 3:61, 62)

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.” Leviticus 26:1

Anyway, I’ve noticed a lot of venom on this forum. And speaking as a fairly zealous Protestant I also know that there are many zealous Catholics who love to defend their faith and beliefs, but when a Christian’s beliefs go so far beyond and against the commands of God as in this case I honsestly struggle to understand it.

 

[FCEGM]

Welcome to the Forum.

The reason we Catholics - and Orthodox - truly have honor for things we can see and feel, etc., has to do with the Incarnation in that Catholicism understands and appreciates the reality of the Incarnation, whereas much of Protestantism merely pays it lip service without truly appreciating what it means for God to have become Man; as St. Paul says of Christ: “He is the visible image of the invisible God; and so in seeing Him we are caught up in love for the God we cannot see.”

This situation (the Incarnation) changes everything. It shows that the New Covenant in Christ is different from God’s Covenant with Israel. In the Christian Covenant, we have Emmanuel (“God-with-us”), and, therefore, not only Christ’s Incarnation reflects the glory of the Father, but also the Church - the extension of Christ’s Incarnation (i.e., the Body of Christ) - reflects God’s glory. Thus Mary and the other Saints who reflect Christ, thereby reflect the Father’s glory. And so, images of Christ and His Saints are at the service of this incarnational glory of God.

Under the Old Law the Israelites were not to make graven images because no earthly creation could reflect the glory of God. Yet, after the Incarnation, this is possible, but only in Christ and in His Saints - those who are part of His Body.

So, the key to understanding Catholic iconography is to appreciate the reality of Christ’s Incarnation. In rejecting the legitimacy of icons and other religious images, the Protestant world comes very close to rejecting the Incarnation Itself. Indeed, Christ became FLESH in order to save FLESH (us). If everything is merely spiritual, why did Jesus need to come in the flesh at all?? This must be addressed and recognized.

In the Incarnation of God as the Man Jesus, the Living Image of God became visible. Representations of Him and His deeds (including His Mother and all who are His handiwork of Grace) and His Mysteries, therefore, are not only allowed but desirable. The Church is only imitating what God Himself has done. It is the Incarnation of God that is the key factor in determining if sacred images may be used.

These articles further address your questions:

catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0603btb.asp

(The Catholic Answers’ Library is a good place to start in coming to understand better just what the Church teaches and why).

 

[Wolseley]

What I wanted to ask was, if you have statues of Mary, Christ, the saints etc either in your home or local Church, do you consider them “idols”?

No.

Now, the Greeks didn’t consider their statues to be gods, neither do the Catholics. So what’s the difference between Greek idols and Catholic ones?

In the case of Catholics, we don’t need statues to pray to God. Idol worshippers do, because the idol is their literal god. In the case of the Greeks, what source are you citing to corroborate your contention that the Greeks did not consider their statues to be actual gods?

Second question. Why do people kneel down in front of these statues? Why do they kiss them? In short, what is the point of them?

Ever been away from home, such as at camp, or at college, or in the Army, and been dreadfully homesick? Did you have a picture of a loved one in your wallet (a girlfriend, your mother) and look at it from time to time? Did you ever kiss the photo because you were missing her/them so badly?

Same thing.

I know Catholics like to replace the word “worship” for “adoration” or “veneration” but why adore an image?

Why kiss a picture of your girlfriend?

I know that Catholics also say that the veneration shown to an image is somehow magically transmitted to the subject of the image. What is the basis for this assumption? It seems like mysticism to me.

We got this practice straight out of the Bible. It’s in the same chapter where Paul describes altar calls.

I’d just like to add something I read from Tertullian. The Romanists seem to put a lot of stock in what the Church Fathers said so here goes: “The principal crime of the human race, the highest guilt charged upon the world, the whole procuring cause of judgment – is idolatry. God prohibits an idol as much to be made as to be worshipped.” (Tertullian, ANF 3:61, 62)

Good, you’ve read Tertullian. Now read Damascene: fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.html

 

[Wholly_Spirit]

Although I’m not going to go on a long tirade about how the Roman Catholics practice Idolatry - only because I know the replies I’ll get - I still want to bring up the subject of idols which (although I am a Protestant) is the only aspect of Roman Catholicism that seriously upsets me.

I took this definition of idolatry from the dictionary:

*1 : the worship of a physical object as a god
2 : immoderate attachment or devotion to something *

1. Do Catholics worship the OBJECT? Protestants may say we do, but can they honestly really believe we do? That in my mind is a puzzle…and I come from a protestant background. Of course Catholics DON’T worship the object. It’s only a REPRESENTATION of the devotion.
2. Do Catholics have an immoderate devotion to something? In this case; do have an immoderate devotion to Jesus, Mary, the perfected Saints. Protestants may say we do, but as Catholics it’s hard for us to realize how one can be immoderate such things.

To a Catholic, Protestants have an immoderate devotion to the Bible. Would a Protestant dare desecrate a Bible. Of course not, even if it’s only a book. But it’s represents “The Word of God” and in that context it IS to be respected and it perfectly OK to be USED as a REPRESENTATION in devotion. Can Protestants honestly say they don’t show devotion to The Word of God through the Bible? Even Catholics show devotion to The Word of God in that manner.

What I wanted to ask was, if you have statues of Mary, Christ, the saints etc either in your home or local Church, do you consider them “idols”?

No, no more than the picture of my wife above my computer is an idol (and if I could have a statue of her, I’d put there.) I have great devotion to my wife;I have a great devotion to my Savior, Jesus; I have a great devotion to Mary, blessed of all women and the Mother of my Lord; I have a great devotion to all the Saints who have been great role models for me.

I only ask this because I was thinking about the account told in Acts of Paul’s arrival in Athens and that “he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.” (Acts 17;16) Now, the Greeks didn’t consider their statues to be gods, neither do the Catholics. So what’s the difference between Greek idols and Catholic ones?

I could be wrong, but I think the pagens thought the idols did have power.

“Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.” -Ezekiel 14:6

Is devotion to Jesus, Mary, and the Saints an abomination?

Second question. Why do people kneel down in front of these statues? Why do they kiss them? In short, what is the point of them?

The kneeling and kissing isn’t for the benefit of the image. If anything it’s for the benefit of the person who is doing their best to in some way show the admiration and respect that have for the person of devotion. Why be quiet at a funeral visitation? Why dress for church (I know, some of you don’t…I do)? Why be show signs of respect at all. Because, you want that person to know how much you really respect them. That’s what the actions before statues are trying to convey; the respect we have for the person…not the object.

I know Catholics like to replace the word “worship” for “adoration” or “veneration” but why adore an image?

We don’t adore an image, no more than a person adorates a flag when they stand at a ballgame, take off their hat and place it over their heart and sing the National Anthem or…say a PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE!

I know that Catholics also say that the veneration shown to an image is somehow magically transmitted to the subject of the image. What is the basis for this assumption? It seems like mysticism to me.

That’s one I’ve never heard before! Magical transmission!

(cont’d below)

 

[Wholly_Spirit]

I’d just like to add something I read from Tertullian. The Romanists seem to put a lot of stock in what the Church Fathers said so here goes: “The principal crime of the human race, the highest guilt charged upon the world, the whole procuring cause of judgment – is idolatry. God prohibits an idol as much to be made as to be worshipped.” (Tertullian, ANF 3:61, 62)

But…Catholics don’t worship the images they have.

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.” Leviticus 26:1

This verse is forbidding the making of images FOR worship onto it. Catholics don’t worship the images.

Anyway, I’ve noticed a lot of venom on this forum. And speaking as a fairly zealous Protestant I also know that there are many zealous Catholics who love to defend their faith and beliefs, but when a Christian’s beliefs go so far beyond and against the commands of God as in this case I honsestly struggle to understand it.

Protestants…it’s really OK to have a picture of Jesus in your home. It’s really OK to have a manger scene displayed at Christmas. It’s really OK to have an image of your favorite religious hero that you admire…just don’t worship it.

I play taps at funerals quite often. One day I went to a cemetary I had never been to before. It was out in the country in the woods. I drove up a winding road and at the entrance of the cemetary was this gigantic statue of…Martin Luther! It was a protestant cemetary. I had to chuckle.

 

[clarktaylor]

In the case of the Greeks, what source are you citing to corroborate your contention that the Greeks did not consider their statues to be actual gods?

All the Greek literature I’ve read. Plato, Euripides, Sophocles, Homer etc. All the myths relating to Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite etc referred to actual physical gods. How could Zeus come down and seduce so many women if he were a statue? How could Athena help Odysseus if she were a statue?

Why kiss a picture of your girlfriend?

Exactly. I wouldn’t! Why would YOU?

We got this practice straight out of the Bible. It’s in the same chapter where Paul describes altar calls.

Can you give me the book/chapter? I don’t know what chapter you’re referring to.

I’ll read that Damascene guy.

FCEGM: I don’t really get what you-re saying about the Incarnation. You say “in rejecting the legitimacy of icons and other religious images, the Protestant world comes very close to rejecting the Incarnation Itself.” I don’t get it. How can a Christian reject the Incarnation? Just because God became a man doesn’t automaticaly mean that you should make sculptures and icons of that man. And given all the warnings in the Old Testament I would be wary of doing so… I’ll check out those pages you mention. Thanks

 

[FCEGM]

FCEGM: I don’t really get what you-re saying about the Incarnation. You say “in rejecting the legitimacy of icons and other religious images, the Protestant world comes very close to rejecting the Incarnation Itself.” I don’t get it. How can a Christian reject the Incarnation? Just because God became a man doesn’t automaticaly mean that you should make sculptures and icons of that man. And given all the warnings in the Old Testament I would be wary of doing so… I’ll check out those pages you mention. Thanks

Christ Jesus is the Incarnated Image of the Father; in the Incarnation of God as the Man Jesus, the Living Image of God became visible. Representations of Him and His deeds (including His Mother and all who are His handiwork of Grace) and His Mysteries, therefore, are not only allowed but desirable. The Church is only imitating what God Himself has done in forming His Image in the womb of the Virgin Mary. It is the Incarnation of God that is the key factor in determining if sacred images may be used.

A Christian is de facto rejecting the Incarnation when not seeing how all of humanity - all of creation! - is transformed by God becoming Man. Thus what formerly separated man from the true God, i.e., the false gods and images of them, now in Christ unites God to man through the rightful employment of images of God-made-Man, Christ and all that pertains to His Body, i.e., the Saints.

This by a Catholic at another website some years ago explains it very well:

The Old Testament prohibitions (which are quite strict) against the creation of images, are similar to Israelitic rules pertaining to “kashrut” (koser; meaning, “that which is fit”) in general; they are pedagogical.

The Israelites were a people mired with pagan influences, dwelling in a carnal and darkened world. According to the Great Prophet of the Old Covenant, Moses the God-seer, the Israelites were an extremely stubborn people, and even in his own lifetime they rebelled against him and God (Deuteronomy 31:27). Thus the Law they received, was harsh, to ensure they’d stay on the right path (and very often even this was not enough.)

They were given dietary laws which were strictly enforced, so that they couldn’t even sit at the table of a pagan, let alone fraternize with him. They were absolutely forbidden to marry foreign wives (a great sin which King Solomon was punished for) for this reason (save those women would convert, as did happen a few times in the Old Testament; one of our Lord’s ancestors, Ruth, was in fact a covert to the Old Covenant). These laws were needed in their regard, to keep them from the abominations of the pagans.

This included the fetishistic idolatry of pagans, and their carnal notions about spiritual things. The pagans envisioned divinity as being something degraded and human; their “gods” subject to the worst forms of human pettiness, and moral debauchery. The common belief of the people, envisioned “gods” who copulated, had spats, ate, drank, killed each other, etc.

This is very foreign to any true idea about the Divinity. Thus, there were strict prohibitions (enforced with varying degrees of severity in Jewish history) against making images, or showing them veneration, to avoid the danger of making a mockery of God, and the fetishism of the pagans.

Given that the Israelites were a people who, despite the theophanic fire burning atop Mt.Sinai, and the great miracles they’d witnessed, still worshipped the idol of the golden calf, shows such severity was needed. (Exodus chapter 32) So outrageous was their conduct, that God was prepared (according to Exodus 32) to annihilate the Israelites, and let Moses start over again somewhere else (but Moses supplicated on their behalf, so a lesser punishment was allowed.)

Despite all of this, we do see that in the Old Testament, even under the Old Covenant, there were sacred images (greek “icon”). The Ark of the Covenant which God gave specific instructions on how to construct, was itself a “type”, and the statues of the Cherubim on the top were certainly representations (indeed, representations of something which is in fact spiritual, and by it’s nature incorporeal). The vestments worn by the Aaronic Priests had illustrations of vegation on them, and we know that the Temple of Solomon (which God consecrated to Himself) had representations of Cherubim all over the place, a representation of Paradise in the inner area, and two gigantic gold leafed statues of Cherubim in the inner sactuary, between which the Ark of the Covenant was placed.

continued. . .

 

[FCEGM]

It can be said, and very correctly, that the entire ritual and Temple worship mandated by the Old Covenant was “iconographic”, both in it’s representations of Angels, and of spiritual ideals like God’s Throne, Heaven, the Heavenly Altar, etc. This is not only not condemned by God in the Old Testament, but was constructed according to His will.

For believers in God, who are rightly initiated into the New Covenant (made not upon Mt.Sinai, but Mt.Zion, where the house was located that the Last Supper occured in…surrounded not by twelve stone pillars as Moses was, but the twelve Apostles), this iconographical principle (representing in type heavenly things, and mysteries of the Kingdom) is still in force.

Are not the promises and gifts given to the Church greater than that seen in Israel of old? Were they not pointing to the reality of redemption, where as we are familiars with it? While they could only live in hope of the Christ, has He not already come to us? Where as the Israelites could only point to Heavenly things, are we not partakers in them?

Speaking of the righteous men and women who lived before the coming of Christ, St.Paul states,

13 All these died according to faith, not having received the promises but beholding them afar off and saluting them and confessing that they are pilgrims and strangers on the earth. (Hebrews 11:13)

And making a contrast between these persons and the Church, St.Paul adds:

39 And all these, being approved by the testimony of faith, received not the promise:
40 God providing some better thing for us, that they should not be perfected without us. (Hebrews 11:39-40)

According to Hebrews 12:1, these Saints of the Old Testament (who now, being rescued in death by the power of the Resurrection, have inherited the promise), and for us (by default) all of those who have successfully run the course before us in the New Covenant, exist as a “cloud of witnesses” that “surrounds us”.

This Holy Mystery, lies at the heart of the true Church, and is the reality it participates in, this reality being most clearly shown where and when She gathers to celebrate the Eucharist (which was established on Mt.Zion)

18 For you are not come to a mountain that might be touched and a burning fire and a whirlwind and darkness and storm,
19 And the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, which they that had excused themselves, that the word might not be spoken to them.
20 For they did not endure that which was said: and if so much as a beast shall touch the mount, it shall be stoned.
21 And so terrible was that which was seen, Moses said: I am frighted, and tremble.
22 But you are come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels,
23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel.(Hebrews 12:18-24)

The above shows the direct communion which the Church Militant (the Church in this world) has with the Church Triumphant (the Heavenly Church); a union which is made manifest when the Mass is celebrated (the Priest acting in the person of Christ the Offerer, the Bread and Wine seperately consecrated as His Body and Blood, the sacrifice for our sins).

The above also shows, just how superior the life of the Church is, over the Synagogue; how more fruitful the New Covenant is, over the Old (which it in fact came to fulfill and bring to completion; the Old by it’s very symbols and nature, points to the New). Where as the Old Covenant was characterized by severity, and fear, the New Covenant is characterized by fellowship with God as His very sons, being baptized into the eternally begotten Son.

Therefore, just as God hallowed Solomon’s Temple, is it not right to believe that God hallows the Temples which the Church has erected, for the purpose of giving them a place to gather and celebrate the Holy Mass? And just as this Temple had rightful Icons, reprenting Heavenly beings and mysteries, would it not make sense that the Angels and Saints are also represented in our Houses of Prayer? Indeed, are not such representations only giving symbolic form, to that which is in fact VERY REAL and very much present?

As the Apostle teaches, after speaking of our communion with Heaven…

10 We have an altar whereof they have no power to eat who serve the tabernacle. (Hebrews 13:10)

 

[MariaG]

All the Greek literature I’ve read. Plato, Euripides, Sophocles, Homer etc. All the myths relating to Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite etc referred to actual physical gods. How could Zeus come down and seduce so many women if he were a statue? How could Athena help Odysseus if she were a statue?

While I would agree with you that the greeks did not worship the statues as if they were gods, they did worship false gods. The statues were simply representations of the false gods they worshipped. Would you agree?

As Catholics, we do not worship the statue thinking it is a god, NOR do we worship anybody the statues represent as a god at all, (unless of course, it is a statue or representation of Christ ).

Respectfully, you seem to be saying that the Greeks had statues and worshipped false gods, and Catholics have statues, so they too must worship those whom the statues represent as gods.

Is this your contention/understanding?

 

[Cling2Cross]

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8 KJV)

The day my wife starts falling before a man that resembles me is the day I get jealous - no matter what her explanation.

 

[MariaG]

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8 KJV)

The day my wife starts falling before a man that resembles me is the day I get jealous - no matter what her explanation.

Thankfully, my God may be a jealous God, but He judges my heart along with my actions.

And respectfully, are you comparing your unreasoning jealousy with God’s just jealousy?

Edit: And isn’t there a bible story that talks of a slave/servant who was required to help his master bow down and worship idols but he said he knew God would know that he was not bowing down to the idol but only helping his master?

 

[SacredHeartFan]

We do not worship these objects as you would an idol. We simply use them to remind us of the Holy Lives they lived and how we should try to live how they lived in Christ’s footsteps. They are like Catholic Role Models. We honor them due to their total love and commitment towards Jesus.

 

[Cling2Cross]

Thankfully, my God may be a jealous God, but He judges my heart along with my actions.

And respectfully, are you comparing your unreasoning jealousy with God’s just jealousy?

Edit: And isn’t there a bible story that talks of a slave/servant who was required to help his master bow down and worship idols but he said he knew God would know that he was not bowing down to the idol but only helping his master?

Are those tap shoes you have on?

 

[MariaG]

Are those tap shoes you have on?

I don’t have to dance my way out of anything. But maybe you just are not as familar with scripture as I am:shrug:

I only worship the One true God.

2kings 5:18 In this matter may the LORD pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my arm, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon your servant in this matter."

The Lord clearly can tell the difference between bowing down and bowing down to worship the One True God (or bowing to worship a false God for that matter!).

 

[clarktaylor]

We do not worship these objects as you would an idol. We simply use them to remind us of the Holy Lives they lived and how we should try to live how they lived in Christ’s footsteps.

But how can an image remind you of the lives they lived? If I want inspiration I’ll, for example, read the Sermon on the Mount. Looking at an image of a man who might bear some resemblance to Jesus doesn’t help me in any way. The Jews don’t need idols and statues to “remind” them of the great men and women of the Old Testament. Even the Muslims don’t need any images to inspire them. Why do Catholics? Anyway, if the Bible doesn’t teach and inspire you to “walk in the ways of the Lord”, no statue will.

Maria: Notice that the person speaking in that passage is a Syrian pagan, and even he knows that bowing down to an idol is wrong and asks forgiveness. Why don’t the Catholics?

 

[MariaG]

Maria: Notice that the person speaking in that passage is a Syrian pagan, and even he knows that bowing down to an idol is wrong and asks forgiveness. Why don’t the Catholics?

Because Catholics are not bowing down to worship those whom the statues represent as gods, while the servant is with a master who is bowing down expressly for that purpose. And so he is helping someone to worship a false god, even if it is only doing so to obey his master. There is no worshiping of anyone but God no matter what statue may be in front of a Catholic christian. Why would we ask for forgiveness for worshipping the one true God?

In a previous post, I asked:

Respectfully, you seem to be saying that the Greeks had statues and worshipped false gods, and Catholics have statues, so they too must worship those whom the statues represent as gods.

Is this your contention/understanding?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[ElizabethPH]

Although I’m not going to go on a long tirade about how the Roman Catholics practice Idolatry -

Catholics do not practice idolatry.

 

[Cling2Cross]

I don’t have to dance my way out of anything. But maybe you just are not as familar with scripture as I am:shrug:

I only worship the One true God.

2kings 5:18 In this matter may the LORD pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my arm, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon your servant in this matter."

The Lord clearly can tell the difference between bowing down and bowing down to worship the One True God (or bowing to worship a false God for that matter!).

This is clearly a different situation.

 

[Church_Militant]

But how can an image remind you of the lives they lived? If I want inspiration I’ll, for example, read the Sermon on the Mount. Looking at an image of a man who might bear some resemblance to Jesus doesn’t help me in any way. The Jews don’t need idols and statues to “remind” them of the great men and women of the Old Testament. Even the Muslims don’t need any images to inspire them. Why do Catholics? Anyway, if the Bible doesn’t teach and inspire you to “walk in the ways of the Lord”, no statue will.

Maria: Notice that the person speaking in that passage is a Syrian pagan, and even he knows that bowing down to an idol is wrong and asks forgiveness. Why don’t the Catholics?

Boy are you ever out in left field without a glove…
Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

 

[ElizabethPH]

But how can an image remind you of the lives they lived? If I want inspiration I’ll, for example, read the Sermon on the Mount. Looking at an image of a man who might bear some resemblance to Jesus doesn’t help me in any way. The Jews don’t need idols and statues to “remind” them of the great men and women of the Old Testament. Even the Muslims don’t need any images to inspire them. Why do Catholics? Anyway, if the Bible doesn’t teach and inspire you to “walk in the ways of the Lord”, no statue will.

Maria: Notice that the person speaking in that passage is a Syrian pagan, and even he knows that bowing down to an idol is wrong and asks forgiveness. Why don’t the Catholics?

Because they are not idols. Because they are statues or images does not make them idols.