Idols

[Wholly_Spirit]

You basically said that you can live without food…

How did you come up with that assumption? I didn’t negate the importance of the Word of God. Catholics have the Word of God. Catholics gave YOU the Word of God. If every Bible in the world was destroyed, we would STILL have the Word of God. The Word of God is to be preached. The Word of God is to be heard.

 

[Church_Militant]

Why is the 2nd commandment missing in some places in the Catholic arena?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:3-5 KJV)

It’s not…

It’s right there in the first commandment.

 

[Wholly_Spirit]

How?? From the apocrypha?? The apocrypha also says that the young Jesus killed kids when he fell out with them. Do you believe that too??

Catholics aren’t as stupid as you think. We can sift through **** pretty easily. This thread being an example.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Well i don’t think this thread is going to go anywhere.

As I said in my first post, Paul describes Greek statues as idols. I don’t see any difference between them and a Catholic statue of, for example, the Virgin. Neither are gods and neither is an image of a god. They are, as David puts it more poetically…“silver and gold, made by the hands of men.They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see;they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell;they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk;nor can they utter a sound with their throats.Those who make them will be like them,and so will all who trust in them.” Psalm 115

Amen!!!

Read this: catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

 

[Wholly_Spirit]

He won’t.

 

[Cling2Cross]

It’s not…

It’s right there in the first commandment.

Interesting - why only state the first part of it and leave the rest out in these cases?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me… (Exodus 20:3 KJV)

We must worship God…

1. Exclusively
2. Spiritually
   God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24 KJV)
3. Sincerely
4. Regulary

These are the first four commandments…

Why decide to break the last one up - covetousness is covetousness…

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. (Exodus 20:17 KJV)

To hide something?

 

[ricmat]

clarktaylor: Please excuse some of us Catholics who seem to be a bit annoyed. It is nothing to do with you personally. But it seems that 3 or 4 times every day some protestant will join the forum, and their first post is usually something like “Do you know that Catholics WORSHIP MARY!!!”

These folks know nothing about Catholicism, only the lies and half-truths told them by their own pastors/ministers.

We go through pretty much exactly the same arguments time after time after time, and it does get pretty depressing.

If you want to learn about Catholicism, and THEN debate it here – GO FOR IT! There are plenty of resources right on this site that can help you discover what the teaching of the Catholic Church really is.

Now, that being said, is there someone in the world, someplace, who calls them self Catholic that go overboard in terms of “idols” - yes, there is. But is that person following the teachings of the Catholic Church - no. Don’t point out to us somebody who is NOT following the teachings of the church, then condemn Catholics for it.

We do, in fact, welcome you to the forum. Protestants have valuable perspectives on many issues and despite my opening paragraph, it would be very boring if there were no protestants on the forum at all.

 

[ricmat]

Interesting - why only state the first part of it and leave the rest out in these cases?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me… (Exodus 20:3 KJV)

We must worship God…

1. Exclusively
2. Spiritually
   God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24 KJV)
3. Sincerely
4. Regulary

These are the first four commandments…

Why decide to break the last one up - covetousness is covetousness…

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. (Exodus 20:17 KJV)

To hide something?

Just so we can get on the same wavelength here…what bible are you using?

Could you copy exactly what they say in your bible?

 

[MariaG]

Anyway…are your statues/images necessary?

No. But neither are they sinful. They in no way break the commandments nor encourage people to break them.

That is like asking if reading your bible daily is necessary. No, but certainly helpful.

 

[MariaG]

Your praying to Mary is enough for me…as well as your doctrine of justification/purgatory, etc.

Really?

So you never ask any saint to pray for you? How do you reconcile your beliefs with scripture that tells us we should pray for one another?

 

[ElizabethPH]

Interesting - why only state the first part of it and leave the rest out in these cases?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me… (Exodus 20:3 KJV)

We must worship God…

1. Exclusively
2. Spiritually
   God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24 KJV)
3. Sincerely
4. Regulary

These are the first four commandments…

Why decide to break the last one up - covetousness is covetousness…

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. (Exodus 20:17 KJV)

To hide something?

In the link I provided in another post will explain this.

 

[clarktaylor]

Really?

So you never ask any saint to pray for you? How do you reconcile your beliefs with scripture that tells us we should pray for one another?

The question wasn’t for me but I have to answer that. I have never asked any saint to pray for me. I can reconcile my beliefs with scripture easily by quoting from the Deuteronomy 18:10

“Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.”

Anyway, how can I pray to the dead? I mean, i can do it but how could they hear me? Only God is omniscient.

 

[ricmat]

ClingtoCross: I got impatient, so here’s the 10 commandments, courtesy of the ESV.

First from Exodus:

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Exo 20:6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Exo 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
Exo 20:13 "You shall not murder.
Exo 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 "You shall not steal.
Exo 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Exo 20:17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

And now from Deuteronomy:

Deu 5:6 "'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Deu 5:7 "'You shall have no other gods before me.
Deu 5:8 "'You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Deu 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deu 5:10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:11 "'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
Deu 5:12 "'Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
Deu 5:13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Deu 5:14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.
Deu 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Deu 5:16 "'Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
Deu 5:17 "'You shall not murder.
Deu 5:18 "'And you shall not commit adultery.
Deu 5:19 "'And you shall not steal.
Deu 5:20 "'And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Deu 5:21 "‘And you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’

Sorry, but I don’t see any numbering. Where does it say “First Commandment?” Where does it say “Second Commandment?”

Verse numbers? Oh, when were those added? And who did it?

In fact, where did your bible come from? Did it fall out of the sky and land on Martin Luther’s desk?

 

[MariaG]

Well i don’t think this thread is going to go anywhere.

As I said in my first post, Paul describes Greek statues as idols. I don’t see any difference between them and a Catholic statue of, for example, the Virgin. Neither are gods and neither is an image of a god. They are, as David puts it more poetically…“silver and gold, made by the hands of men.They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see;they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell;they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk;nor can they utter a sound with their throats.Those who make them will be like them,and so will all who trust in them.” Psalm 115

Amen!!!

You are correct. We cannot convince anyone what we do or don’t do, if they wish to close their ears to the truth.

Question: Do you have no images in your house whatsoever? If you do, how do you prevent yourself from worshipping your family and friends or the cross instead of God Himself?

And to answer someone else who asked how many times I need to read to Sermon on the Mount to understand it, that wasn’t the point. Maybe I’ve read it a 100 times but it never fails to INSPIRE me, which was the point. If I look at a statue of, for example, St. Anne, Mother of Mary (but not mentioned in Scripture). How can that possibly inspire me or help me in any way? When we know nothing reliable about her?

From Scripture we actually know and can be inspired by her on a very important point. What did Mary say when God told her what would happen? She asked a question, How as in I don’t understand and not I don’t believe, and then obeyed. One can meditate quite awhile on obeying God without adding the “buts”.

The complete trust, in “do whatever He tells you to”.

And the perseverance to the end even to being there at the cross.

I’d say that was quite enough to inspire any Christian.

 

[ricmat]

The question wasn’t for me but I have to answer that. I have never asked any saint to pray for me. I can reconcile my beliefs with scripture easily by quoting from the Deuteronomy 18:10

“Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.”

Anyway, how can I pray to the dead? I mean, i can do it but how could they hear me? Only God is omniscient.

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer,

Necromancer means someone who conjures up the dead.

The saints are alive, more alive than you or me. They share the beatific vision. That’s the communion of saints.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Is the Statue of Liberty an idol? Is the statue of Lincoln an idol?

No, none of these are. If we print the face of the queen on note bill then it’s not an idolatry because queen nor the image is being worshiped. Now, making an image of a strong man is not an idolatry as well. It might just be an extression of art. When we however make an image of a false god (which might as well look like a strong man) in order to worship him, then of course it has a lot to do with idolatry.

We Catholics don’t worship statues nor the persons they represent (except for Jesus Christ, of course). Well, that is if we define worship in your protestant sense. I have a lot of images in my room. They remind me of those holy people so I be reminded to live my life according of their example. They are something like my “heroes”. Some people have a poster of their favourate singer in their room. I would rather have a poster of Jesus Christ and the great saints in the History of the Church.

You might sometimes see Catholics (but mainly eastern Christians) kiss their icons or statues. I sometimes do it as well. This is an expression of love to that particular person. For example kissing feet of Christ hanging on the cross is a way to honour him and thank him for his sacrifice. But mind is always directed at Jesus but not at the statue that represents Him. It’s an expression of love.

You said that you woudn’t kiss your girlfiends picture. Perhaps you woudn’t. But what if there was some way for her to know when she is away. Would you not do it then to express your love. I think I would.

 

[MariaG]

Amen, and I think about this a great deal.

Two articles that I have recently blogged deal with what I have realized.
My Reformation Theory
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

I bookmarked them to read later Thanks for the links:thumbsup:

 

[Wholly_Spirit]

…-I still want to bring up the subject of idols which (although I am a Protestant) is the only aspect of Roman Catholicism that seriously upsets me.

As it turns out there a MANY aspects of RC that upset our friend, who really had no intention of initiating this thread with an open mind. He’s an anti-Catholic bigot and always will be one.

 

[Cling2Cross]

ClingtoCross: I got impatient, so here’s the 10 commandments, courtesy of the ESV.

First from Exodus:

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Exo 20:6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Exo 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
Exo 20:13 "You shall not murder.
Exo 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 "You shall not steal.
Exo 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Exo 20:17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

And now from Deuteronomy:

Deu 5:6 "'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Deu 5:7 "'You shall have no other gods before me.
Deu 5:8 "'You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Deu 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deu 5:10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:11 "'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
Deu 5:12 "'Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
Deu 5:13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Deu 5:14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.
Deu 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Deu 5:16 "'Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
Deu 5:17 "'You shall not murder.
Deu 5:18 "'And you shall not commit adultery.
Deu 5:19 "'And you shall not steal.
Deu 5:20 "'And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Deu 5:21 "‘And you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’

Sorry, but I don’t see any numbering. Where does it say “First Commandment?” Where does it say “Second Commandment?”

Verse numbers? Oh, when were those added? And who did it?

In fact, where did your bible come from? Did it fall out of the sky and land on Martin Luther’s desk?

Tap tap tap.

 

[clarktaylor]

As it turns out there a MANY aspects of RC that upset our friend, who really had no intention of initiating this thread with an open mind. He’s an anti-Catholic bigot and always will be one.

Why do you call me a bigot because I don’t like to see people adoring or venerating (or just plain worshipping) statues? Are the Jews “anti-Catholic bigots” because they ban images? Are the Muslims? Are the… Protestants? I don’t think so. Why do you think all these different groups abhor religious icons but the Catholics don’t?