If 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is teaching Sola Scriptura today...

[Richard_Kastner]

According to the Bible, not everything Jesus did or taught is in the Bible. We worship Jesus, not the Bible.

Of couse we worship Jesus. I certainly did not imply otherwise. Everything that Jesus taught is not in the bible because as John says, it would fill the world. But what is in the bible is enough. Case in point the passage in question.

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The Bible does not interpret itself. Whether it’s you or the Pope, somebody has to do it.

Again I ask. What is there about this passage that you need interpreted

Case in point:

[BIBLEDRB]Ex 20:13[/BIBLEDRB]

Is abortion considered murder? From the pages of the Bible alone it can be argued both ways (though the ones who say no are being dishonest in their interpretation). What if you want a real answer?

Or this:

[BIBLEDRB]Gen 38:8-10[/BIBLEDRB]

Is contraception equivalent to Onan’s sin?

To whom should you go?

I think the questions posed in the OP is enough for this thread. No need to go off on a tangent.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Of couse we worship Jesus. I certainly did not imply otherwise. Everything that Jesus taught is not in the bible because as John says, it would fill the world. But what is in the bible is enough.

Again, 2 Tim 3:16 does not say “only.” 2 Thess. 2:15 says that Paul considered oral preaching to be on a par with Scripture.

Again I ask. What is there about this passage that you need interpreted

So your Bible is just this one passage?

I think the questions posed in the OP is enough for this thread. No need to go off on a tangent.

In order to prove that Scripture alone provides everything necessary for salvation as concerns Christian love, you need to be able to confidently answer tough questions, the wrong answer to which may result in a distortion of love.

There are over 30,000 Protestant denominations with different answers to these questions. The Holy Spirit is not the author of this confusion.

 

[wisdomseeker]

a protestant must have made this video to humiliate Catholics.

youtube.com/watch?v=CnnB7JxRGzU&feature=related

debate on sola scripture

youtube.com/watch?v=RJskrQq3dXM&feature=related

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Again, 2 Tim 3:16 does not say “only.” 2 Thess. 2:15 says that Paul considered oral preaching to be on a par with Scripture.

2Thess.2
15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Yes, Paul quite obviously is saying here that the traditions taught by word, IOW the gospel he preached, was exactly the same as the gospel contained in his epistles.

So your Bible is just this one passage?

There really is no need for sarcasm Cat. The OP made made reference to it and the title of this thread is "If 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is teaching Sola Scriptura today… " So why not stick with it till we get this hashed out?

In order to prove that Scripture alone provides everything necessary for salvation as concerns Christian love, you need to be able to confidently answer tough questions, the wrong answer to which may result in a distortion of love.

You mean like the ones that I have been trying to get you to answer. Here they are again.

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

First what is there about this passage that you need interpreted and second if holy scriptures, “are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” If they are given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

What else is there that you think that we need Cat?

There are over 30,000 Protestant denominations with different answers to these questions. The Holy Spirit is not the author of this confusion.

I haven’t gotten you to give me one answer to my questions.

 

[Nicea325]

The traditions taught that Paul is talking about here are either by word of mouth or by letter and are obviously one and the same.
QUOTE]

Come again? That is pure conjecture.Where does Paul say they are one and the same? You know for a fact all traditions were penned? Historical sources please…

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The traditions taught that Paul is talking about here are either by word of mouth or by letter and are obviously one and the same.

Come again? That is pure conjecture.Where does Paul say they are one and the same? You know for a fact all traditions were penned? Historical sources please…

Do you know for a fact that they weren’t? Read the v. 2Thess.2:15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. How do you get the idea from this v. that the traditions taught by word are any different than those written. But that actually is periferial to the main questions. I haven’t been able to get an answer from anyone else so I’ll ask you.

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

1. What is there in this v. that you need interpreted?
   and
2. If holy scriptures, “are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” If they are given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

What more do you think is needed?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

If 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is teaching Sola Scriptura, then does St Paul necessarily EXCLUDE any scriptures written after this letter? Does it only refer to the Old Testament?

2Tim3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Paul clearly says here that all scripture is inspired by God. That would be the bible old and new testaments.

 

[Cat_Herder]

2Thess.2
15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Yes, Paul quite obviously is saying here that the traditions taught by word, IOW the gospel he preached, was exactly the same as the gospel contained in his epistles.

Your Bible translation omits “of mouth” after “word.” Among modern translations only the ASV, WEB, and N/A/TKJV do that. How do you know that your translation is correct?

It is far from obvious that all of the traditions were committed to Scripture. In fact it is obvious that they were not. Why do Christians go to church on Sunday in a church building? Where is that in the Bible? Where in the Bible does it say how to conduct a Sunday worship service, or a marriage?

There really is no need for sarcasm Cat. The OP made made reference to it and the title of this thread is "If 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is teaching Sola Scriptura today… " So why not stick with it till we get this hashed out?

Because ALL Scripture is inspired by God, as I’m sure you’re aware. The Word of God is not divisible.

 

[Cat_Herder]

2Tim3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Paul clearly says here that all scripture is inspired by God. That would be the bible old and new testaments.

How do you know what is Scripture? Why do you leave out Tobit, the Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, and Judith and shorten Daniel and Esther?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Your Bible translation omits “of mouth” after “word.” Among modern translations only the ASV, WEB, and N/A/TKJV do that. How do you know that your translation is correct?

How else would a word be spoken if not by mouth?

It is far from obvious that all of the traditions were committed to Scripture. In fact it is obvious that they were not.

This isn’t what I said Cat. Here it is again.
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
2Thess.2
15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Yes, Paul quite obviously is saying here that the traditions taught by word, IOW the gospel he preached, was exactly the same as the gospel contained in his epistles.

Paul is saying in 2 Thess.2:15 that the gospel that he preached is the same as the gospel that he wrote down. He alludes to the same idea in Gal. 1:9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. The Gospel that Paul preached was the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for the sins of mankind. 1 Corinthians 2:1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
He preached no other gospel because by his own words he would be accursed.

Why do Christians go to church on Sunday in a church building? Where is that in the Bible? Where in the Bible does it say how to conduct a Sunday worship service, or a marriage?

Ya, why do you go to church on Sunday? The bible says to go on the Sabbath. And the Sabbath is Saturday. Ex.20:8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

How do you know what is Scripture? Why do you leave out Tobit, the Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, and Judith and shorten Daniel and Esther?

I’ve got a bible Cat. Are you saying that my bible is not scripture?

 

[Cat_Herder]

I’ve got a bible Cat. Are you saying that my bible is not scripture?

I know your book is an incomplete Bible. You cannot prove that it is in fact complete. All of the ancient manuscript Bibles, such as the Codex Sinaiticus, contain the deuterocanonical books that are missing from your Protestant Bible because they contain the complete list of scripture as established by the Catholic Church in the 4th century AD.

That’s the end of biblical sufficiency right there.

 

[Cat_Herder]

How else would a word be spoken if not by mouth?

Now that you have acknowledged that the verse refers to both Tradition and Scripture, the burden is on you to prove that all of the Tradition passed on by Paul is actually in Scripture. I already indicated two things are missing: Worship and marriage. You have yet to respond. I don’t think you realize how grave the problem of not being able to demonstrate how to worship God from the Bible is, so let’s put it front and center.

Paul is saying in 2 Thess.2:15 that the gospel that he preached is the same as the gospel that he wrote down. He alludes to the same idea in Gal. 1:9

Then show us how to worship Him from the Bible alone.

Ya, why do you go to church on Sunday? The bible says to go on the Sabbath.

Yes, but the Sabbath is not the Lord’s Day. Anyway, there’s a bigger problem than that.

Actually, the Bible does not say to go to a church building at all. It says to SELL THE CHURCH and worship at home!

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 2:43-47[/BIBLEDRB]

So you say you want to go by the Bible alone? Then you need to figure out from the Bible alone how God wants to be worshipped and what your church building has to do with it. Or else you will have to sell that building and give the money to the poor immediately to be in compliance with the Word of God.

There is a hint in the above Scripture. But let me make it really obvious.

 

[joe370]

Richard, do you believe that the early Christians who were taught by Paul, actually stood firm and held to the traditions taught to them by letter as well as the spoken word?

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

 

[joe370]

Richard, I am gonna go off point for just a second:

Can you prove to me that you or I have the authority to interpret the Bible? If so, then who or what did God set in place, to resolve our differences when you and I cannot agree on any one doctrine found in the bible? So far, I have been told, by non-Catholics, that the bible is the only source of infallible truth, (and no one - no church - can infallibly interpret the bible) - and yet you and I can’t even agree as to what infallible truth is regarding, say, the Eucharist, or which church in the world today is the historical church of Matthew 16, and even if we could agree, how would we know that our interpretation of the inerrant word of God is inerrant, considering the fact that no one - no church - can infallibly interpret the infallible word, as per the sola scriptura perspective as stated here, by non-Catholics? A little help friend.

.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Now that you have acknowledged that the verse refers to both Tradition and Scripture, the burden is on you to prove that all of the Tradition passed on by Paul is actually in Scripture.

I already indicated two things are missing: Worship and marriage. You have yet to respond./ I don’t think you realize how grave the problem of not being able to demonstrate how to worship God from the Bible is, so let’s put it front and center.

Then show us how to worship Him from the Bible alone.

Yes, but the Sabbath is not the Lord’s Day. Anyway, there’s a bigger problem than that.

Actually, the Bible does not say to go to a church building at all. It says to SELL THE CHURCH and worship at home!

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 2:43-47[/BIBLEDRB]

So you say you want to go by the Bible alone? Then you need to figure out from the Bible alone how God wants to be worshipped and what your church building has to do with it. Or else you will have to sell that building and give the money to the poor immediately to be in compliance with the Word of God.

There is a hint in the above Scripture. But let me make it really obvious.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_Juanes_002.jpg/170px-Juan_de_Juanes_002.jpg

I’m not sure what your little game has to do with SS, but let’s play along, for now.
Isaiah 58
13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Do you delight yourself in the Lord on His holy day, the Sabbath?

As for marraige, in John 2 Jesus goes to the wedding feast at Cana and performs a miracle, Thereby giving crdence to this cerimony. In Matt.5 Jesus says
31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Sounds like Jesus is all for marraige here Cat. But you still have not answered my questions.

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

1. What is there in this v. that you need interpreted?
   and
2. If holy scriptures, “are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” If they are given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

What more do you think is needed?

 

[Cat_Herder]

I’m not sure what your little game has to do with SS, but let’s play along, for now.
Isaiah 58
13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

How?

14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Do you delight yourself in the Lord on His holy day, the Sabbath?

How?

As for marraige, in John 2 Jesus goes to the wedding feast at Cana and performs a miracle, Thereby giving crdence to this cerimony.

What ceremony?

In Matt.5 Jesus says
31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Sounds like Jesus is all for marraige here Cat. But you still have not answered my questions.

How do they marry?

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

1. What is there in this v. that you need interpreted?

What is Scripture?

and
2) If holy scriptures, “are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” If they are given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

What more do you think is needed?

1. A list of what books are Scripture
2. Which translation is authoritative
3. An authoritative interpreter, since there is supposed to be one faith, one Lord and one Baptism
4. Instructions on how to worship God
5. Instructions on how to conduct a marriage ceremony
6. An explanation of why you have a church building when the Bible says to sell it

… and so on.

Or you could just admit what is so painfully obvious, that all of the above come from Sacred Tradition.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard, I am gonna go off point for just a second:

Can you prove to me that you or I have the authority to interpret the Bible? If so, then who or what did God set in place, to resolve our differences when you and I cannot agree on any one doctrine found in the bible? So far, I have been told, by non-Catholics, that the bible is the only source of infallible truth, (and no one - no church - can infallibly interpret the bible) - and yet you and I can’t even agree as to what infallible truth is regarding, say, the Eucharist, or which church in the world today is the historical church of Matthew 16, and even if we could agree, how would we know that our interpretation of the inerrant word of God is inerrant, considering the fact that no one - no church - can infallibly interpret the infallible word, as per the sola scriptura perspective as stated here, by non-Catholics? A little help friend.

.

We got to get back to basics here. The title of this thread is “Re: If 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is teaching Sola Scriptura today…” Here are those vs. along with v. 15

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I’m going to ask one more time and if you don’t answer I’ll just have to think that you can’t and that’s why you are intent on derailing you own thread.

1. What is there in this passage that you need interpreted?
   and
2. If holy scriptures, “are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” If they are given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

What more do you think is needed?

 

[Cat_Herder]

We got to get back to basics here. The title of this thread is “Re: If 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is teaching Sola Scriptura today…” Here are those vs. along with v. 15

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I’m going to ask one more time and if you don’t answer I’ll just have to think that you can’t and that’s why you are intent on derailing you own thread.

If you want to be pedantic like that, the rest of the OP refers to Hebrews 13:17 and you haven’t said a peep about that verse. However, I have lost track of the number of times that you have posted and reposted and reposted 2 Tim. 3:15-17 as if those three verses were the entire Bible.

 

[joe370]

Richard, I started this thread and I certainly don’t mind if you answer this question, and then we can get back to the OP.

We got to get back to basics here. The title of this thread is “Re: If 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is teaching Sola Scriptura today…” Here are those vs. along with v. 15

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I’m going to ask one more time and if you don’t answer I’ll just have to think that you can’t and that’s why you are intent on derailing you own thread.

1. What is there in this passage that you need interpreted?
   and
2. If holy scriptures, “are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” If they are given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

What more do you think is needed?