If 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is teaching Sola Scriptura today...

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi, Richard,

Not quite… Let me explain…

When it comes right down to it - the real issue is not the Scriptures - but, who is interpreting them. Apparently, there are several imporant areas where seemingly learned people decided that their private interpretation was all that was needed. Since there was nothing that they could find in Scripture to say they were wrong … they felt they must have been right.

Here are four examples on such disasters - effectively basing themselves on either SS or the apparent infallability of individual insights;

50 AD - Council of Jerusalem.
Issue: one had to become a Jew first and then become a Christian. Obviously, Scripture teaches that Christ was a Jew as were the 12 Apostles.
Resolved: Peter ends the matter with the first infallable decision he made as recorded in Acts 15. We do not have to be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses to follow Christ. What makes this such a profound decision is that had Peter merely went with Scripture - he could only have found support for what the Judiazers were claiming! This is evidence of the guidance from the Holy Spirit.

325 AD - Council of Nicaea .
Issue: Jesus Christ was not God
Resolved: Jesus Christ is of the same substance as the Father. The Trinitarian belief (not patently obvious to some from Scripture) was established. Additionally the Nicaen Creed was established which lists the various articles of faith that Christians (and…that would be Catholics - since this is 1350 years before the Reformation). While Scriptural referencs can be identified - there were many who had come up with their own version of what to believe. It was the Catholic Church in this Council that established the elements of faith. It is the Catholic Church today that makes the definitive pronouncements of what is to be believed. Without such a source to make the ‘final call’ on a matter, you would wind up with the 20,000+ Protestant cults, clans, groups, assemblies, unions - all claiming to be a church and all disputing with one another citing the authority of the Bible as their source.

381 AD - First Council of Constantinople .
Issue: clarified the wording on the Nicean Creed involving the Holy Spirit and condemned the heresy that Christ did not have a human will and human soul (Apollinarism)
Resolved: The Holy Spirit is totally God, a Unique Person in the One God. Now Scripture is not necessarily clear about human soul of Christ - and, could probably have been a bit clearer about His human will. But, some individuals decided on their own that they - and not the Catholic Church - could resolve this matter on their own.

431 AD - First Council of Ephesus
Issue: There were two persons in Christ and Mary was not the Mother of God
Resolved: The Partiarch of Constantinople was teaching heresy and was condemned - Christ has two nature (God and human) and one Person (Second Person of the Blessed Trinity) uniquely positioned in Jesus Christ. Mary is the Mother of Christ - Who Is God and it must be concluded that Mary is the Mother of God. Now, it is very interesting that Elizabeth, inspired by the Holy Spirit, said the same thing (Luke 1:41-43)

None of these Councils were convened like we have conventions and parties - the Catholic Church was under active attack by - not by stupid or illeterate people - but, very intellegent people who could read the Bible in seveal languages! But, just reading the Bible isn’t enough - here are classic examples of serious error that had to be corrected. In my opinion, Scripture provides a lot - but, it does not provide it all! To claim that Scripture provides all that necessary is to put yourself in the same boat as those early Catholics who thought they knew better than the Chruch that Christ founded on Peter (Matt 16:18).

God bless

Hi, Tom

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I have asked these questions numerous times on this thead. No one seems willing or able to answer them pehaps you would be willing to try?

I have posted 2Tim3:15-17 Which says the scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation and that the inspired word of God is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” Ok, my questions are. What about this passage is there that you need interpreted and if scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation, what more do you feel we need?

 

[pablope]

Hi, Tom

Ok, my questions are. What about this passage is there that you need interpreted and if scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation, what more do you feel we need?

What more do we need:

Eph 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Rom 2:5-8:

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart (I)you are storing up wrath for yourself (J)in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Rom 2: 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the **doers **of the Law will be justified.

Rom 4: 4: 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

In other words…continue in faith, remain in Christ and do good works by Him.

**To abide or remain in Christ: John 6: 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. **

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Richard,

I certainly will give it my best effort…

Hi, Tom

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I have asked these questions numerous times on this thead. No one seems willing or able to answer them pehaps you would be willing to try?

If I understand you correctly, Richard, you are providing this quote from 2Tim to identify that scripture is not only ‘profitable’ but contains EVERYTHING needed for the Christian. If this is a correct understanding of your position, then consider this:

1.) Paul wrote this letter sometime while he was a prisoner in Rome, with every expectation of being murdered by the then emperor Nero (64-68AD). Admittedly, this is not an exact date, but given the particulars of the letter itself, I think this is a fair range of dates. The Apostle John had not yet written his epistles and Revelations was not completed until sometime between 95-100AD before John died. All this is pointing to, just what did Paul mean when he was talking about Scripture. The OT was the only completed portion of the Bible at the time. This would mean that at best he could have only seen portions of what others had written or were writing (Like Luke’s writings in the Gospel and the Acts). It really does not make sense for Paul to be proclaiming that the OT has it all - when in fact, Christ had given us a New Covenant.

2.) In Paul’s first letter to his ‘son’ Timothy (1Tim 3:14) was written about 62-66AD (a range with an overlap with the second letter - a guess on dates for sure - but, a guess that would identify that not a lot of time passed between the writing of the first and second letter). In this section, Paul who was fully knowledgeable in the OT (former Pharisee that he was) but was not aware of all that would be contained in the NT (these letters to Timothy appear personal in nature and not intended for the Church as a whole…) because they had all not been written yet. So here is Paul and what does he tell us is the pillar and bulwark of truth - no, he did not say Scripture … rather… he says it is the Church! Now, it would be 1600 years before Luther broke with the Catholic Church - so, he was not addressing Protestants. Paul was addressing the Catholic Church.

3.) In my previous post, I identified four of the early Catholic Church’s teachings: Christ is God, Christ is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Christ was True God and true man, and Mary is the Mother of God. I do not know which particular Protestant religion you belong to - but, I think that your faith believes in at least most of these elements - if not all. These elements of Faith were derived from Councils of the Catholic Church and were developed in response to serious attacks from both inside and outside the Catholic Church by people who thought they could do their own interpretation of Scripture.

There is nothing easy or simple about understanding all of scripture. While there are some items we think are clear: The Beautitudes (Matt 5:1-12), there are others (e.g., Christ giving us the command to eat His Flesh [John 6:53], or giving men the delegated power of God to forgive sin [John 20:20-21] that many refuse to believe!

Note, there is no real difference in the New Testament - Catholic or Protestant Bibles are the same. You can go to the references you have in your bible and I am quite sure you will have before your eyes what I am talking about. So, why is there a difference? Well, one answer lies in interpretation of the written word. Christ did not promise the Holy Spirit to guide everyone’s interpretation of Scripture (if He did, then why are there so many different interpretations out there - 20,000+ Protestant groups!) Besides 2Peter 1:20 specifically warns us against private interpretation!

I submit that Scripture is like one leg of a three-legged stool. That one leg is very important (or the stool would fall) but, the stool can not stand on one leg. The other two legs are Apostolic Tradition and the Magesterium (the teaching authority of the Church).

I hope this is helpful.

God bless

I certainly will give it my best effort…

 

[pablope]

Hi, Tom

I have posted 2Tim3:15-17 Which says the scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation and that the inspired word of God is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” Ok, my questions are. What about this passage is there that you need interpreted and if scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation, what more do you feel we need?

I thought there have been several attempts to respond to this. Maybe your question is misunderstood or is lost with the rest of your post.

What do you mean by “What more do you need”? Is it what is needed to do after reading the bible, after believing or professing belief and faith in Christ?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Richard,

I was re-reading your post to Cat Herder and something struck my mind…

2Tim.3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

No, but it does say that ALL scripture is inspired by God and it is able to make us wise unto salvation, that it can instruct us in righteousness, not ours but Jesus’, and that it can lead us to perfection in Jesus. I guess I need to go back to my original question. What more than this is needed?

What does it mean to be wise? It is not being encyclopedic - for there are some brainy fools in every age. Wisdom is the ability to discern what is good from what is less good. To chose what is true, right and lasting. Foolish choice that I have made can all be grouped in selecting what is false, wrong and temporal!

As I see it, using Scripture to be wise is perfectly fine. Part of that wisdom would be the ability to discern that Scripture does not have all of the answers! Well, if it did … then there would not be various and contradictory contradictions in the 20,000+ Protestant denominations! This is really a practice issue rather than a theoretical issue - for if your faith’s interpretation was 100% - then you would be Catholic! Look at the areas where your faith differs - and note how the words of Christ must be explained away as in these two examples:

1.) The Real Presence (Look at all of John 6. Christ shows He can control nature any way He chooses - feeding 5,000 men with a few fish and loaves, calming the storm - and yes, telling everyone that they MUST eat His Flesh if they are to have life in them. He did not say, 'Have a meal and remember me". If that is what He meant - then why did most of the people listening to Him refuse to believe and walk away (John 6:60) No where in the Bible is it recorded that the listeners were so offended by a metaphor that they left the prophet they had been following.

2.) Confession (Look at John 20. Here we have the Risen Christ - giving a special Gift of the Holy Spirit by breathing on the Apostles - the delegated Power of God to forgive sin - or not forgive sin as appropriate. Many non-Catholics claim to follow Christ but say they bring their sins directly to God. Here we clearly have the manner in which Christ wants us to have our sins forgiven - yet it, like the The Real Presence, is rejected.

Wisdom - obtained from Scripture will allow all to identify that Scripture is only one of the legs on this stool - it is not the entire stool, nor would the stoll be able to stand on one leg. Inj order to properly understand Scripture we must go back to those who were there - and this gives us Apostolic Tradition and we must be open to the Holy Spirit who was sent by Christ to Guide His Church (and that would be the Catholic Church).

This, in my view, is true wisdom.

God bless

 

[Cat_Herder]

And if you don’t mean what it says,why post it? Why not post what you do mean?

I was trying to help you understand. I am beginning to see that you don’t care for charity, though.

How many of those Christian practices are necessary for our salvation Cat? The bible tells us that “the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” 2Tim3:15

1. A list of what books are Scripture- yes
2. Which translation is authoritative- yes
3. An authoritative interpreter, since there is supposed to be one faith, one Lord and one Baptism- yes
4. Instructions on how to worship God- yes
5. Instructions on how to conduct a marriage ceremony- yes; if some Christians don’t marry there will soon be no Christians
6. An explanation of why you have a church building when the Bible says to sell it - yes, unless you want to tell me that Christians can get to heaven without worshiping God

 

[Richard_Kastner]

What more do we need:

Eph 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Rom 2:5-8:

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart (I)you are storing up wrath for yourself (J)in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Rom 2: 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the **doers **of the Law will be justified.

Rom 4: 4: 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

In other words…continue in faith, remain in Christ and do good works by Him.

**To abide or remain in Christ: John 6: 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. **

Eph.2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi, Richard,

I certainly will give it my best effort…

If I understand you correctly, Richard, you are providing this quote from 2Tim to identify that scripture is not only ‘profitable’ but contains EVERYTHING needed for the Christian. If this is a correct understanding of your position, then consider this:

1.) Paul wrote this letter sometime while he was a prisoner in Rome, with every expectation of being murdered by the then emperor Nero (64-68AD). Admittedly, this is not an exact date, but given the particulars of the letter itself, I think this is a fair range of dates. The Apostle John had not yet written his epistles and Revelations was not completed until sometime between 95-100AD before John died. All this is pointing to, just what did Paul mean when he was talking about Scripture. The OT was the only completed portion of the Bible at the time. This would mean that at best he could have only seen portions of what others had written or were writing (Like Luke’s writings in the Gospel and the Acts). It really does not make sense for Paul to be proclaiming that the OT has it all - when in fact, Christ had given us a New Covenant.

Note what this says
2Tim3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Tom this says ALL scripture. Who is it that inspires scripture. Was it Paul? No, of coarse not it is God. Paul had no idea what would constitute scripture and indeed there is more of it now. Are you saying that the scriptures that weren’t written when Paul wrote to Timothy are not inspired? I hope not.

Note, there is no real difference in the New Testament - Catholic or Protestant Bibles are the same. You can go to the references you have in your bible and I am quite sure you will have before your eyes what I am talking about. So, why is there a difference? Well, one answer lies in interpretation of the written word. Christ did not promise the Holy Spirit to guide everyone’s interpretation of Scripture (if He did, then why are there so many different interpretations out there - 20,000+ Protestant groups!) Besides 2Peter 1:20 specifically warns us against private interpretation!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi, Richard,

I was re-reading your post to Cat Herder and something struck my mind…

What does it mean to be wise? It is not being encyclopedic - for there are some brainy fools in every age. Wisdom is the ability to discern what is good from what is less good. To chose what is true, right and lasting. Foolish choice that I have made can all be grouped in selecting what is false, wrong and temporal!

As I see it, using Scripture to be wise is perfectly fine. Part of that wisdom would be the ability to discern that Scripture does not have all of the answers! Well, if it did … then there would not be various and contradictory contradictions in the 20,000+ Protestant denominations! This is really a practice issue rather than a theoretical issue - for if your faith’s interpretation was 100% - then you would be Catholic! Look at the areas where your faith differs - and note how the words of Christ must be explained away as in these two examples:

1.) The Real Presence (Look at all of John 6. Christ shows He can control nature any way He chooses - feeding 5,000 men with a few fish and loaves, calming the storm - and yes, telling everyone that they MUST eat His Flesh if they are to have life in them. He did not say, 'Have a meal and remember me". If that is what He meant - then why did most of the people listening to Him refuse to believe and walk away (John 6:60) No where in the Bible is it recorded that the listeners were so offended by a metaphor that they left the prophet they had been following.

2.) Confession (Look at John 20. Here we have the Risen Christ - giving a special Gift of the Holy Spirit by breathing on the Apostles - the delegated Power of God to forgive sin - or not forgive sin as appropriate. Many non-Catholics claim to follow Christ but say they bring their sins directly to God. Here we clearly have the manner in which Christ wants us to have our sins forgiven - yet it, like the The Real Presence, is rejected.

Wisdom - obtained from Scripture will allow all to identify that Scripture is only one of the legs on this stool - it is not the entire stool, nor would the stoll be able to stand on one leg. Inj order to properly understand Scripture we must go back to those who were there - and this gives us Apostolic Tradition and we must be open to the Holy Spirit who was sent by Christ to Guide His Church (and that would be the Catholic Church).

This, in my view, is true wisdom.

God bless

2Tim.3: 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Tim.3:15 has an object which you completely leave out of your rather lengthy disertation on wisdom, But as you can see, scripture is “able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” Why would you leave this out Tom? We are not talking about some generic clinical definition. We are talking about “holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” If we attain this wisdom through scripture and are assured of our salvation if we maintain that faith in the salvation obtained for us by Christ. WHAT MORE DO WE NEED?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I was trying to help you understand. I am beginning to see that you don’t care for charity, though.

You think that because I want you to say what you mean that I don’t “care for charity”
I’m not sure I see how that follows.

1. A list of what books are Scripture- yes
2. Which translation is authoritative- yes
3. An authoritative interpreter, since there is supposed to be one faith, one Lord and one Baptism- yes
4. Instructions on how to worship God- yes
5. Instructions on how to conduct a marriage ceremony- yes; if some Christians don’t marry there will soon be no Christians
6. An explanation of why you have a church building when the Bible says to sell it - yes, unless you want to tell me that Christians can get to heaven without worshiping God

Just to make sure I know what you are saying. Do you think that the things you have on your list here are necessary for our salvation? In other words, Do we need

1. A list of what books are Scripture for our salvation? This is in the bible.
2. Which translation is authoritative for our salvation? You don’t think that all christian translations are authoritative?
3. An authoritative interpreter, since there is supposed to be one faith, one Lord and one Baptism for our salvation?
4. Instructions on how to worship God for our salvation? This is in the bible.
5. Instructions on how to conduct a marriage ceremony for our salvation?
   if some Christians don’t marry there will soon be no Christians
6. An explanation of why you have a church building when the Bible says to sell it. for our salvation?
   unless you want to tell me that Christians can get to heaven without worshiping God

 

[Nicea325]

Note what this says
2Tim3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Tom this says ALL scripture. Who is it that inspires scripture. Was it Paul? No, of coarse not it is God. Paul had no idea what would constitute scripture and indeed there is more of it now. Are you saying that the scriptures that weren’t written when Paul wrote to Timothy are not inspired? I hope not.

I have read your post over and altho you said that you would make an effort to answer my questions, I don’t see the answers. Let me post them again.

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I have posted 2Tim3:15-17 Which says the scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation and that the inspired word of God is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Ok, my questions are. What about this passage is there that you need interpreted and if scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation, what more do you feel we need?

Exactly! It reads ALL scripture,not ONLY scripture. Why can’t you comprehend that simple and evident fact? St.Paul was NOT teaching Sola Scriptura and all that is needed for salvation is in the Bible…pure conjecture by advocates of SS.

Tell me Richard,what about the scores of people throughout the ages who had no Bible to read? What about during the years when the NT was still being penned?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Exactly! It reads ALL scripture,not ONLY scripture. Why can’t you comprehend that simple and evident fact? St.Paul was NOT teaching Sola Scriptura and all that is needed for salvation is in the Bible…pure conjecture by advocates of SS.

So, you are saying that when Paul says ALL scripture, he really means something other than the inspired word of God, the bible?

Tell me Richard,what about the scores of people throughout the ages who had no Bible to read? What about during the years when the NT was still being penned?

Nicea, what does this question have to do with whether or not all that is needed is in scripture? What do you think this means 2Tim.3: 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. As for “What about during the years when the NT was still being penned?”
Nicea, salvation is not attained by the bible, but it is “able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” The bible is able to make us wise unto salvation and that means that all we need is in there.

Jn.5:39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[Nicea325]

So, you are saying that when Paul says ALL scripture, he really means something other than the inspired word of God, the bible?

Nicea, what does this question have to do with whether or not all that is needed is in scripture? What do you think this means 2Tim.3: 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. As for “What about during the years when the NT was still being penned?”
Nicea, salvation is not attained by the bible, but it is “able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” The bible is able to make us wise unto salvation and that means that all we need is in there.

Jn.5:39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

And so what you mean to say is that St.Paul is teaching and declaring ONLY Scripture is inspired by God and nothing else?

Richard you miss the point about the last paragraph I asked you. If the Bible were to contain everything needed for salvation, I am curious to know why God Himself (Jesus) never bothers to mention it during His earthly ministry? Geee…something so binding to our very salvation,yet goes without mentioning by Jesus Himself?

Last but not least,Jesus did not come to earth to write a Bible and leave a book-only faith. Are we Muslims? Are we Jews? He came to found a Church and Christianity is NOT a religion of the book (Bible),but of the person: Jesus Christ.

 

[Fisher]

Pro 1:7 * The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[pablope]

Pro 1:7 * The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 3:5-6 (New American Standard Bible)

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
     **And do not lean on your own understanding.**
6 In all your ways (C)acknowledge Him,
     And He will make your paths straight.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

And so what you mean to say is that St.Paul is teaching and declaring ONLY Scripture is inspired by God and nothing else?

Are you saying there is something else that is inspired 2Tim.3:16 only mentions scripture. What else would it be?

Richard you miss the point about the last paragraph I asked you. If the Bible were to contain everything needed for salvation, I am curious to know why God Himself (Jesus) never bothers to mention it during His earthly ministry? Geee…something so binding to our very salvation,yet goes without mentioning by Jesus Himself?

Did you read the words of Jesus that I posted at the end of my post?
Jn.5:39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Last but not least,Jesus did not come to earth to write a Bible and leave a book-only faith.

Are you sure about this statement ? What do you base this on Nicea? Jesus said Well, let’s start with the one just gave you. Jn.5:39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jn.17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Jn.6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Where do we find the words of God (Jesus)? How about this Nicea? 1Jn.5: 9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Where do we find the record of Jesus, Nicea? It’s the bible. Not just the new or old testament. The bible is about God’s plan of Salvation and that is manifest in Jesus. I don’t know about you Nicea but I believe Paul when he writes to Timothy “thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

Are we Muslims? Are we Jews? He came to found a Church and Christianity is NOT a religion of the book (Bible),but of the person: Jesus Christ.

How would we know about Jesus if we did not have the bible, Nicea?

 

[Cat_Herder]

So, you are saying that when Paul says ALL scripture, he really means something other than the inspired word of God, the bible?

Yes. He included something that is not in Scripture: the table of contents. Based on his citation of 2 Maccabees 7 in Hebrews 11:25, Paul’s table of contents is different than yours.

What do you think this means 2Tim.3: 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Faith alone does not save. The Scriptures are useful to show us how to work out our salvation. They are not, however, essential in the sense that the Holy Spirit is essential or baptism is essential. If Paul had meant to say the Scriptures were necessary or essential he would have said those words instead of useful.

Jn.5:39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jesus affirms there that He, not the Bible, is the source of eternal salvation. Read the surrounding verses.

[BIBLEDRB]Jn 5:37-40[/BIBLEDRB]

By omitting the following verse you twisted the Scripture into some kind of Sola Scriptura proof. Jesus clearly said that if you have only the Bible and your own wisdom from searching it, you are not saved. You must go to Jesus and obey Him to be saved.

The preceding verse shows that not everyone who searches the Bible actually has His Word within them. That is fatal to Sola scriptura.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes. He included something that is not in Scripture: the table of contents. Based on his citation of 2 Maccabees 7 in Hebrews 11:25, Paul’s table of contents is different than yours.

Here’s Heb11:25
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

What are you talking about?

Faith alone does not save. The Scriptures are useful to show us how to work out our salvation.

What? Is this the gospel according to the Cat Herder? Faith in Jesus Christ does not save and we work out our own salvation? Are you sure you want to make this statement?

They are not, however, essential in the sense that the Holy Spirit is essential or baptism is essential. If Paul had meant to say the Scriptures were necessary or essential he would have said those words instead of useful.

Why are baptism and the Holy Spirit essential?

Jesus affirms there that He, not the Bible, is the source of eternal salvation. Read the surrounding verses.

[BIBLEDRB]Jn 5:37-40[/BIBLEDRB]

By omitting the following verse you twisted the Scripture into some kind of Sola Scriptura proof. Jesus clearly said that if you have only the Bible and your own wisdom from searching it, you are not saved. You must go to Jesus and obey Him to be saved.

The preceding verse shows that not everyone who searches the Bible actually has His Word within them. That is fatal to Sola scriptura.

I have never said that we are saved by the bible. But the bible tells us about Jesus who is the way, the truth, and the life and that is essential to eternal life.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Richard,

I am really not sure what it is you are missing…or, maybe you do not like the answers I have already provided…?

Note what this says
2Tim3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Tom this says ALL scripture. Who is it that inspires scripture. Was it Paul? No, of coarse not it is God. Paul had no idea what would constitute scripture and indeed there is more of it now. Are you saying that the scriptures that weren’t written when Paul wrote to Timothy are not inspired? I hope not.

I have read your post over and altho you said that you would make an effort to answer my questions, I don’t see the answers. Let me post them again.

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I have posted 2Tim3:15-17 Which says the scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation and that the inspired word of God is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Ok, my questions are. What about this passage is there that you need interpreted and if scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation, what more do you feel we need?

Richard, this passage tells you nothing of WHAT you are to DO. For example, Christ identifies that Baptism is necessary for salvation - yet various Protestant groups say that Baptism is optional, or it MUST be by immersion or is to be only done in the name of God (avoiding the Trinity as identified in Matthew 28). So, we have this quote from 2Tim that says nothing about this - yet, there is this major disagreement over Baptism. Christ says it is necessary (John 3:3-7) yet some men say it is not quoting (or, should I say mis-quoting) the Bible!

My ANSWER TO YOU is that 2Tim is fine for as far as it goes - but the problem is IT DOES NOT GO FAR ENOUGH!

I have given you items that I think you believe - and their origin in the four earliest Catholic Church Councils - and, you don’t respond except for this repeated quote from 2Tim.

I have identified that there are 20,000+ Protestant groups all claiming to be the true path to Christ - yet all arguing over the INTERPRETATION of Scripture - with no one having the authority to declare in a definitive manner (like Peter did in Acts 15 to the Judiazers) what we are to DO. This is where the “…wise unto salvation…” comes in. Christ commanded us to DO things and for those who failed they were, “… shut outside where there was the weeping and gnashing of teeth”. We are not saved by our works (don’t want you to get off on a tangent) but through our cooperation (that means we DO what Christ has commanded) with the Grace of God.

Ultimately, one has to take what is written in Scripture and apply it to their life - and, it is at the point of application that one questions: “Is this the right way?” Just looking around at 20,000+ different ways of believing - yet all claiming to be Christian, you should get some very confused sense that they all can not be right. And, 2Tim is not addressing this issue. Now, it you don’t get that sense, then you answer me, why not? If SS is so incredibly clear because Scriputre is so understandable, then how come we all of these divergent claims to truth?

Now, Richard, I have done my best to answer your question. If you find it unanswered then you will need to specifically tell me where it is that it fails - and just don’t quote 2Tim again.

God bless

 

[pablope]

Here’s Heb11:25
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

What are you talking about?

What? Is this the gospel according to the Cat Herder? Faith in Jesus Christ does not save and we work out our own salvation? Are you sure you want to make this statement?

Why are baptism and the Holy Spirit essential?

I have never said that we are saved by the bible. But the bible tells us about Jesus who is the way, the truth, and the life and that is essential to eternal life.

Then, what does Jesus command you to do?

Matt 7: 21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Math 12: 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Matth 16: 27: For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

I think James says it best: 1: ver 26-27
26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.