you have forgotten that this is the Church teaching the people. it was not some individual who picked up the Bible one day and decided on their own to teach the Word of God. if you believed everything that is in the Bible, how do you explain what Jesus said, if you have a problem wiht thy brother take it to the Church. so, will you come with me to the CC to settle the matter we have right now?
Yep! How many tens of thousands of different denominations,non-denominations,sects,etc,etc and people like Richard still refuse to acknowledge and accept the Bible-Only is a scam invented centuries later.
Who?
It might be if I gave some.
No He is teaching that by Him alone is eternal life achieved and He is talked about in the bible.
How do you think that Jesus is manifest other than by preaching the word and reading the word Nicea?
I am getting tired of protestants calling me sarcastic when I ask a simple honest question. However, you did answer my question and your answer is:
By the way this thread really doesn’t apply to you because you seem to embrace catholic tradition because you said: Whether by mouth, oral tradition, or written word, epistle.no, Jesus said, if you and your brother have a dispute take it to the Church and not the Bible. is it how you believe Jesus? do you believe what Jesus said, or you just believe in the name of Jesus? you follow the ideas of a man who was cast out of the Church and was treated as a tax collector, a publican just like Jesus commanded His Church to do. and if you follow the ideas of a rebellious man, you become just like him. at the times of the Apostles many left the Church also, and that did not stop the Church from continue her mission as her Master promised the gates of hell would not prevail against her. Many have died for this Church, yet the Church continues. and will continue until the end of times.
Hhmmmm? How about the CATHOLIC BISHOPS who gaves us the DOCTRINE for the canon of scripture? The doctrines for the Incarnation? Trinity? Is that all a fairy tale Richard or should we hitch on the train of historical facts to confirm it?
No need to rehash old memories,you have in the past and once again did it here and others have told you in the past as well. You take verses out-of-context a common trait among the thousands of different denominations.
EXACTLY! Through Him…ALONE…not THROUGH written words. Thanks for finally admitting it. BTW: No NT existed or complied Bible existed when Jesus said those words. Likewise, God says NO WHERE we must have a Bible in order to know about him. What Bible did Abraham read?
Not to steal Pablope’s answer… but I certainly hope this series of answers is understood.The questions are really not that hard to understand.
But, apparently, the answers are…
You say that the CC is the only one that can infallibly interpret scripture.
That is exactly what is being said.
I would be interested in know who you say can infallibly interpret scriptures you read. Seriously, just where do you get the idea that 2Tim is the only verse that is necessary in the Bible.
I would like to know what there is about 2Tim. 3:15-17 that you need interpreted?
2Tim tells you about wisdom - and you appear to thinkj that all wisdom is contained in the Bible - but this is not the case. The local library has a catalog of its books - but the catalog does not provide ‘wisdom’ - but, it does tell you (wisely) where to go for the answers! The Bible is one one of the three important elements for the true Christian.
Wisdom tells us to follow Christ and what He said - and Christ said He was founding His Chruch on Peter and his successors. But, you are not doing that.
Wisdom tells us to follow Christ and what He said - and Christ said to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. But you are not doing that.
Wisdom tells us to follow Christ and what He said - and Christ said to go to his representatives on earth to have our sins forgiven. But, you are not doing that.
Wisdom is more than thinking you have THE ANSWER - Wisdom is doing what is requried with the answer.
So does 2Tim need interpretation YOU BETTER BELIEVBE IT DOES because the view you have presented here is totally contrary with the teachings of Christ - and I just gave you three specific examples above.
And if scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation what more than this is there that you think that we need?
The problem with ‘wisdom’ is that it does not parade around and try to hide its flaws - in fact, we have some real insights from the Bible on this matter:
Proverbs 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes…
Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool seems right to him…
Isaiah 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes…
Ultimately, taking one verse and claiming it means something it doesn’t because of personal interpretation is simply foolishness - not wisdom.
The Catholic position seems to be that more is needed outside of what is contained in the bible.
No ‘seems’ about it!
2Tim3:15 says “holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
Guess what, Richard: you need MORE THAN FAITH. If you doubt this, read the 25 Chapter of Matthew - all of those folks apparently had some kind of faith - but, they did nothing with it! They wound up in hell.
If this is true, what is it that the Catholic Church thinks that we need other than “salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” and the Catholics on this thread keep saying that the CC is the only one that can authoritively interpret scripture. So I would like to know what there is about 2Timothy 3:15-17 that needs interpretation?
Simply stated, people who think this one verse allows them to throw out all of the other verses they do not agree with - well, obviously, there is a REAL NEED for authorative interpretation.
It seems quite clear and straightforward to me. This is about as clear as I can make it pablope.
did St Paul claim to be outside the Church? i ask because St Paul spoke of the Church in a very unique way, didnt he?
Hi, T…I think I answered the best I can. I think he is ignoring the threads that answer his questions…it is being answered, but the answers he is seeking are not what he is getting. Did you not see the repetitious questions? We can only hope…i guess.
Your conclusion presupposes that Paul preached two different and conflicting gospels.
Who decided the list and when?
The Word of God is Jesus Christ (John 1) and the Bible is the Written Word of God. But Jesus is not a book. He is a Person and a Person cannot be reduced to a book. Hence the Bible is the complete Written Word of God but not the complete Word of God, Jesus Christ.
Different Christians have the same Bible, but different worship services. Why, if the Bible contains everything that is necessary for the Christian?
You really need to explain how you get this from what I have posted above.
This is irrelavant.
Ok
I don’t think that anyone, I know I’m not, is confusing Jesus with a book.
This statement is just not true.
Well the Protestant church services that I have attended are pretty much the same and I don’t see how if they were different that that would make the bible insufficient.
Because you need a valid interpreter Richard. Remember this .>>Luke 23:34, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
God Bless
You claimed that Tradition conflicts with Scripture. It just ain’t so.
The contents of the Bible are irrelevant? Wow. So the Qur’an, and the Book of Mormon are the Word of God? Sorry dude but I’m not with you on that.
You are if you say that only the Bible is the Word of God. But it looks like you caught the error and now understand that Jesus and only He is the complete Word of God. Now the problem you face is that the Bible says that not everything Jesus and His Apostles did or said is in the Bible. Since Jesus is the Word of God, aren’t these words also the Word of God? And isn’t it then plausible that the Catholic Church, which has been around for 2000 years, has in fact maintained in her practices what they taught but did not write down?
It’s in the Bible. So the Bible is not true?
Jesus said:
[BIBLEDRB]Phil 2:2[/BIBLEDRB]
Hi Cat,
It’s actually impossible for Tradition or the Magisterium to conflict with Scripture because they have the same author: God, more specifically, the Holy Spirit.
Paul was never claiming two separate traditions or teachings; if you look at what the passage actually says; he is describing the mode of delivery of the gospel and the expected conduct of the Christian and the warnings to unbelievers. Either by oral teaching or by letter.