If 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is teaching Sola Scriptura today...

[onenow1]

There is one thing for certain folks, there is no extant copies of the gospels nor do we know with 100% accuracy who wrote them, this being the case,if we are honest, it is impossible not to recognize the tradition of the Catholic Church, that protected, measured and deemed the scriptures written by Catholic Monks inspired. To argue against this history is simply dishonest. Bottom line no one would know the bible as it is unless they put there trust in the Catholic Church. Sola Scriptura is an innovation as many posts indicate.

One more: “We concede – as we must – that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?” Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER’S WORKS, St. Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961, 304

Opinion : I’m guessing from the excerpt above Luther never expected to sever himself from the Catholic Church.

God Bless

 

[joe370]

Onenow1, as a former non-Catholic, that was the conclusion at which I arrived. Thanks for you (name removed by moderator)ut.

=onenow1;7226266]There is one thing for certain folks, there is no extant copies of the gospels nor do we know with 100% accuracy who wrote them, this being the case,if we are honest, it is impossible not to recognize the tradition of the Catholic Church, that protected, measured and deemed the scriptures written by Catholic Monks inspired. To argue against this history is simply dishonest. Bottom line no one would know the bible as it is unless they put there trust in the Catholic Church. Sola Scriptura is an innovation as many posts indicate.

One more: “We concede – as we must – that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?” Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER’S WORKS, St. Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961, 304

Opinion : I’m guessing from the excerpt above Luther never expected to sever himself from the Catholic Church.

God Bless

 

[onenow1]

Onenow1, as a former non-Catholic, that was the conclusion at which I arrived. Thanks for you (name removed by moderator)ut.

God bless

 

[JonNC]

=GreggAlvarez;7220903]Calvin and non-Catholics

Please answer these questions:

May I try?

1. Why do you insist on telling us what we believe? Even after we tell you what we believe. Even after we showed that you distort what we tell you about our beliefs.

We shouldn’t. We should accept what you say as your belief. And the reverse is true, as well. There is a poster on another thread who continually misrepresents sola fide, despite my attempts to correct.

1. Why do you and others think you know more about Catholicism than Catholics? This is shown by the fact that we say one thing and you say things like, “No, you believe this…” or when some people (you know who I am talking about) claim upfront that they know more than us about us.

We don’t. It is wrong, and lacks charity. How are we to dialogue if we choose to not accept what we are told? Again, goes both ways.

1. Did you come to Catholic Answers Forums to educate us or to find answers?

For answers and dialogue.

1. Why will you not respond to the questions we ask?

I try to.

1. Why do you ask over and over again for Bible verses when we give them to you?

See above.

1. If a reasonable case were presented, would you come to the Church?

I would. Reunification with Orthodoxy would sure help.

1. Where does it say “Bible only”, “Sola Scriptura”, “the Word of God is Scripure only”, etc… in the Bible?

It doesn’t specifically. that is why it is a practice, not a doctrine.

1. Respond to our responses that we give biblical reasons.

1. Respond to our responses which we give that are just plain reasoned.

Agreed. Goes both ways.

Jon

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC,

I liked your responses … so here is some dialogue…

May I try?

We shouldn’t. We should accept what you say as your belief. And the reverse is true, as well. There is a poster on another thread who continually misrepresents sola fide, despite my attempts to correct.

Let’s try with this, JonNC. What is the proper representation for SF?

God bless

May I try?

 

[diggerdomer]

TBottom line no one would know the bible as it is unless they put there trust in the Catholic Church. Sola Scriptura is an innovation as many posts indicate.

The trust is not in the Catholic Church, but in the entire Christian tradition.

Yes, sola scriptura is a later innovation.

 

[John1]

Are there any differences in man-made traditions and God-made traditions in the Catholic Church?

 

[John1]

“the Holy Spirit infused His Graces to the 120 followers of Christ (at this time they really did not have a formal name - at least none that is recorded) and here we have Peter giving his first sermon and converting 3,000 people! Christ was brought to the world by the followers of Christ - and in about the year 110AD they were given the name Catholic by Ignatius of Antioch. From this point on we can historically trace their works.”

The followers of Christ were given a name and it was and is “Christian”. This is affirmed in Acts and in 1 Peter. Peter says that we should not be ashamed, but praise God that we bear that name.

 

[onenow1]

The trust is not in the Catholic Church, but in the entire Christian tradition.QUOTE]

The entire Christian Tradition{ Truth} exists in the Catholic Church, and is the body of Christ, other eccliasial cummunities have some traditions{Truths} acceptable to Christ, without a doubt, just as the catechism states.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[Cat_Herder]

“the Holy Spirit infused His Graces to the 120 followers of Christ (at this time they really did not have a formal name - at least none that is recorded) and here we have Peter giving his first sermon and converting 3,000 people! Christ was brought to the world by the followers of Christ - and in about the year 110AD they were given the name Catholic by Ignatius of Antioch. From this point on we can historically trace their works.”

The followers of Christ were given a name and it was and is “Christian”. This is affirmed in Acts and in 1 Peter. Peter says that we should not be ashamed, but praise God that we bear that name.

What was their church throughout Galilee and Judaea called?

 

[onenow1]

"the Holy Spirit infused His Graces to the 120 followers of Christ (at this time they really did not have a formal name - at least none that is recorded) and here we have Peter giving his first sermon and converting 3,000 people! Christ was brought to the world by the followers of Christ - and in about the year 110AD they were given the name Catholic by Ignatius of Antioch. From this point on we can historically trace their works."QUOTE]

Hi John !
The term Catholic was probably used even before that period of time ?
My Opinion:And I doubt that the word Catholic was used for the first time by St.Ignatius, as you know the very word means universal. Interestingly enough they did not hang on to the name{The Way}. given them I presume by the Jews ?

God Bless
onenow1

 

[Cat_Herder]

"the Holy Spirit infused His Graces to the 120 followers of Christ (at this time they really did not have a formal name - at least none that is recorded) and here we have Peter giving his first sermon and converting 3,000 people! Christ was brought to the world by the followers of Christ - and in about the year 110AD they were given the name Catholic by Ignatius of Antioch. From this point on we can historically trace their works."QUOTE]

Hi John !
The term Catholic was probably used even before that period of time ?
My Opinion:And I doubt that the word Catholic was used for the first time by St.Ignatius, as you know the very word means universal. Interestingly enough they did not hang on to the name{The Way}. given them I presume by the Jews ?

God Bless
onenow1

The Way was the name for Christian doctrine, but not for the universal Church throughout Galilee and Judaea.

A specific Greek adjective was used to describe the Church. It was transliterated into English and every other language and this word is still used to identify the Church throughout the world.

[What is it?

](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/album.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7471)

 

[GreggAlvarez]

May I try?

We shouldn’t. We should accept what you say as your belief. And the reverse is true, as well. There is a poster on another thread who continually misrepresents sola fide, despite my attempts to correct.

We don’t. It is wrong, and lacks charity. How are we to dialogue if we choose to not accept what we are told? Again, goes both ways.

For answers and dialogue.

I try to.

See above.

I would. Reunification with Orthodoxy would sure help.

It doesn’t specifically. that is why it is a practice, not a doctrine.

Agreed. Goes both ways.

Jon

Yes! Thank you Jon! Now, we can engage in reasonable dialogue!

 

[onenow1]

onenow1;7228841:

The Way was the name for Christian doctrine, but not for the universal Church throughout Galilee and Judaea.

A specific Greek adjective was used to describe the Church. It was transliterated into English and every other language and this word is still used to identify the Church throughout the world.

[What is it?

](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/album.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7471)

Thanks!!! Cat
God Bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, John 1,

What specifically are you asking about?

God bless

Are there any differences in man-made traditions and God-made traditions in the Catholic Church?

 

[JonNC]

=tqualey;7227584]Hi, JonNC,

I liked your responses … so here is some dialogue…

Let’s try with this, JonNC. What is the proper representation for SF?

God bless
Hi Tom,
In terms of dialogue with my Catholic siblings, I like the JDDJ.

14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works

.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God’s saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.

Now, you won’t call it SF, and that’s ok.
Jon

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC,

Do you call this SF?

God bless

Hi Tom,
In terms of dialogue with my Catholic siblings, I like the JDDJ.

Now, you won’t call it SF, and that’s ok.
Jon

 

[JonNC]

Hi, JonNC,

Do you call this SF?

God bless

Well, I do, Tom. But Tom, I’m not tied to any catch phrase in this way. I’m very comfortable with all my English language Bibles that do not have “alone” in Romans 3:28.
By Grace through faith in Christ comes my justification. I am also quite aware that I am called by Christ to do to good works.

Jon

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC,

I really do not have a problem with what you have said.

Now, if you would be so kind as to read this link: catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp and, let me know if you have any problems with it.

God bless

Well, I do, Tom. But Tom, I’m not tied to any catch phrase in this way. I’m very comfortable with all my English language Bibles that do not have “alone” in Romans 3:28.
By Grace through faith in Christ comes my justification. I am also quite aware that I am called by Christ to do to good works.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Hi, JonNC,

I really do not have a problem with what you have said.

Now, if you would be so kind as to read this link: catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp and, let me know if you have any problems with it.

God bless

My initial response to the objector is the misunderstanding, as I see it, that Catholics overemphasize works - believeing Catholics think one can save himself by works. I’m not seeing that from what I read. That said, I think it has been an issue in the past, at least among the laity.
OTOH, Lutherans have to be careful not to de-emphasize the role of good works in the life of the regenerate Christian.

I think the article points to one issue between us: that being how we use the term “justification”. If one adds to my belief that we are justified by faith alone, the clear truth that, as Luther said, there is no justification without sanctification, then you can see the parallels. Catholics speak of justification as a process. Lutherans speak of justification continued by sanctification. So, while a Catholic says justification includes both faith and works, a Lutheran says justification by faith, which works in love (sanctification).

While we’re sharing , let me know what you think of this by James Akin:
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm

Akin seems to have a decent understanding of the Lutheran SF, when he speaks of it as a Galatians 5 faith, or a formed faith, a faith working in love.

Jon